Dear Bioware/Dev Team,

 

I play a deception assassin and I play exclusively for PvP.

 

I'm a stealther in light armor. This means that the core point of my class is to sneak around and then pop out to burst people down before they (hopefully) have an opportunity to take advantage of my significantly less armor attributes and curb-stomp me in to the floor.

 

Now.. I'm not new to MMOs or PvP in general. I have considerable experience in competitive MMO game play. The majority of players that I fight against fall easy enough thanks to my constant vigilance in properly utilizing all of my abilities (one may dare say too many... I've got over 25 keys bound to keep track of) at the correct moments. I'm currently geared in mostly champion gear with a couple of centurion pieces that I'm working on replacing and my expertise is at 9.5%. However, I'm starting to have issues with your so called "class balance" as more and more people level up and begin taking advantage of certain builds you've allowed.

 

My first issue is with you giving high DPS to a Tank class (See:

). Can you please explain to me why someone who wears heavy armor, as opposed to my light armor, can burst higher than I can? I'm currently in full pvp gear and rarely see a 4k hit.. let alone 5k as this HEAVY ARMOR class just dished out in the aforementioned video. I concede that he may have popped some crazy trinkets and adrenals, etc.. but... just... wow. I don't have a problem with them DPS'ing, it's the burst that concerns me.

 

My second issue is with their counterparts (mercs/commandos). Once again... heavy armor... and the ability to heal as well as DPS. I just don't get it. Why oh why are they healing with heavy armor attributes? Why did you not restrict them to at least medium armor as you did to marauders? If this is the case, why am I restricted to LIGHT armor and not at least medium? I am also a DPS class, after all. Should I not hit harder than any of them as a glass cannon?

 

My third issue deals with operatives/scoundrels. As I'm sure you're aware from the mass QQ on the PvP forums, they are currently able to out DPS any class in-game, going as far as stunning and killing fully PvP geared tanks in a matter of seconds (see:

). I'm a stealther, just like they are, and I can't come any where close to that kind of damage - nor do I have a stun that takes my target out of the fight until they're dead. Just for arguments sake, here's a screen shot of a scoundrel in WZ's with over 500k single target DPS. Unbelievable. That's not AoE.

 

So here's the point of all this:

1.) Are you aware of these issues? Acknowledgement that there is a problem here would be nice.

2.) Are you looking to improve assassins abilities or nerf the others in to balance? I don't care either way, I just want a leveled playing field.

 

I really enjoy my character and love playing as an assassin. It's unfortunate that at this rate, I may have to consider re-rolling a different toon to remain truly at the front edge of PvP competitiveness.

 

 

 

TL;DR - Assassin seems to be quite a bit out of balance in comparison to some other classes. Can you confirm that this is a known problem and that it's being looked at and is on a list for someone, somewhere to correct?

Edited January 9, 2012 by -Shadowfist-

Alot of truth in this post. Were not as strong as we should be opposed with the other classes.

 

Darkness spec works nicely.

 

Deception spec without Dark Charge makes us the squishiest class in the game with mediocre dps.

 

Madness spec is disfunctional and doesnt add up and is very unefficient due to hard procs.

I wondered the same thing. I hope we can get an answer.

The way I see it, as an assasin I'm either darkness in dark charge grinding people down, or deception in surging for burst and going to dark charge as soon as people turn on me (never pvp without a shield) because the damage lost is more than made up for by the mitigation gained. Its not the best situation, but we do have enough burst that if we get the jump on almost anyone we will win, so its not that bad of a situation..

Only point I have to dispute is your emphasis on TANK class. Powertech is as much of a tank as assassins are.. the proficiency is there but unless you spec into it, you're not a tank (the pyrotech is not a tank).

Only point I have to dispute is your emphasis on TANK class. Powertech is as much of a tank as assassins are.. the proficiency is there but unless you spec into it, you're not a tank (the pyrotech is not a tank).

 

Sorry, the emphasis should have been more on the fact that they have heavy armor mitigation as a dps spec, which is beyond ignorant.

Only point I have to dispute is your emphasis on TANK class. Powertech is as much of a tank as assassins are.. the proficiency is there but unless you spec into it, you're not a tank (the pyrotech is not a tank).

 

but they get alot more armor from their gear without having to sacrifice their damage output like an assassin does by changing our charge.

That's like complaining that paladins can heal or dps in addition to tank in WOW... It was always the case, but I would be able to outplay a lot of paladin teams with a priest based team (in cloth). I guess having played enhancement shaman for a while in WOW, I feel that assassin survivability is pretty good already and the burst is very high as well.

 

On a good string of crits as deception (not all that hard with +9% on demand after a recklessness spell crit), we can have 3 4k crits in a row in PVP with Maul assassinate maul that will kill most people from 50%. The maul/spike, VS VS, reckless discharge shock opener will take most people down to around half. Blackout for regen, low slash/electrocute for control and then finishing them off in one combo really makes a lot of people rage at how unfair it is to fight a deception assassin already. I don't try to win 1v1s where I don't open up on the other guy, I can sprint/vanish and come back to exact my revenge...

 

I think the problem is that people want to win every fight, but with a rogue even in games like WOW, you were pretty well screwed if you don't open up on your target, so this isn't all that surprising. Sure we don't have an insta-gib like operatives, but honestly they are really squishy so I doubt an assassin would lose a straight up fight to one under most circumstances, you don't see them complaining that they need to get the jump do you?

The second post in this reply sumated it nicely:

 

You are a tanking class (see: powertech, juggernaut, etc).

 

You have access to a tanking stance. Remember in world of warcraft how warriors used to have to stance-dance?

 

You will have to do the same in pvp. Hell, pressing a button makes you go from squishy to god mode IN YOUR PVP DPS SPEC. All you have to do is equip a shield generator.

 

Because of this, all tanking classes are balanced accordingly.

 

 

The heal/dps classes SUCK at healing without being in the healer tree, however, tanking classes have the option with 1 item and a stance to be able to at least take hits as good as a tank. Insane, if you ask me. If I had a healing stance I could switch to, with only switching my off-hand item, I would gladly do it in a heartbeat, but alas, I cannot. Why? Because the healer abilities are locked away in the higher tiers of the tree while this is largely not the case for tanks.

 

TL;DR: Tank classes with Tank Aura's can become beefy tanky machines in PvP by equipping a shield generator (not much dps lost there) and stance-dancing when being focused.

That's like complaining that paladins can heal or dps in addition to tank in WOW... It was always the case, but I would be able to outplay a lot of paladin teams with a priest based team (in cloth). I guess having played enhancement shaman for a while in WOW, I feel that assassin survivability is pretty good already and the burst is very high as well.

 

On a good string of crits as deception (not all that hard with +9% on demand after a recklessness spell crit), we can have 3 4k crits in a row in PVP with Maul assassinate maul that will kill most people from 50%. The maul/spike, VS VS, reckless discharge shock opener will take most people down to around half. Blackout for regen, low slash/electrocute for control and then finishing them off in one combo really makes a lot of people rage at how unfair it is to fight a deception assassin already. I don't try to win 1v1s where I don't open up on the other guy, I can sprint/vanish and come back to exact my revenge...

 

I think the problem is that people want to win every fight, but with a rogue even in games like WOW, you were pretty well screwed if you don't open up on your target, so this isn't all that surprising. Sure we don't have an insta-gib like operatives, but honestly they are really squishy so I doubt an assassin would lose a straight up fight to one under most circumstances, you don't see them complaining that they need to get the jump do you?

 

The problem with everything you've pointed out is two fold.

 

Firstly, I -have- to rely on crits on my power attacks to effectively burst. Without crits, there simply is no burst. With Champion PvP gear, your crit rate is around 25%. That's not very high... and this is a problem. Assassins really should have a +to crit bonus added to the class.. a higher crit rate would balance them out quite a bit.

 

Secondly, I feel as though we're way too heavily dependent on cool downs. I understand the class... very well... I'd probably venture to say better than most here. I know when and how to use each of my abilities. If your timing is off, you're dead. If your cooldowns aren't up - you may as well sit in the corner and wait, because there's no point in engaging. Furthermore, some of our cooldowns such as Force Shroud only last for 3 seconds... are you kidding me? That's enough to negate a hit or two, and poof its gone - worse, if you mistime it by a second, you're toast.

 

I mean, seriously, compare this to mercs who spam between one and five attacks and top score boards. If I'm properly utilizing all of my 25+ abilities, I shouldn't just be "even" with these other classes, I should be far beyond them as the level of skill required to properly play an assassin isn't even comparable.

I really feel for the people on here that aren't as "on the ball" as some of us... they must get wrecked.

 

The only saving grace of Assassins in PvP for a well-played toon is that so many other people are so unbelievably bad at their classes.

Edited January 9, 2012 by -Shadowfist-

It does feel like we use more skills then almost any other class.

Heavy armor mitigation = jack and ****

 

light armor is 10%

Medium armor is 20%

and Heavy armor is 30%

 

It ONLY provides protection vs kinetic and to a lesser extent energy damage.

 

Damage types such as Internal are not mitigated by armor in any way shape or form.

 

 

your over exagerating how "good" wearing heavy armor is.

Edited January 9, 2012 by EchoTwoOmega

The second post in this reply sumated it nicely:

 

You are a tanking class (see: powertech, juggernaut, etc).

 

You have access to a tanking stance. Remember in world of warcraft how warriors used to have to stance-dance?

 

You will have to do the same in pvp. Hell, pressing a button makes you go from squishy to god mode IN YOUR PVP DPS SPEC. All you have to do is equip a shield generator.

 

Because of this, all tanking classes are balanced accordingly.

 

 

The heal/dps classes SUCK at healing without being in the healer tree, however, tanking classes have the option with 1 item and a stance to be able to at least take hits as good as a tank. Insane, if you ask me. If I had a healing stance I could switch to, with only switching my off-hand item, I would gladly do it in a heartbeat, but alas, I cannot. Why? Because the healer abilities are locked away in the higher tiers of the tree while this is largely not the case for tanks.

 

TL;DR: Tank classes with Tank Aura's can become beefy tanky machines in PvP by equipping a shield generator (not much dps lost there) and stance-dancing when being focused.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

Our tank stance has some issues, that invalidate some of your points.

 

We are the only tank stance with a reduced outgoing damage

 

We have the worst mitigation in tank stance

 

When not in deception dps stance we cannot use one of our best burst abilities even if specced for it. No other tank has a stance restriction on their dps abilities only guard.

 

We cannot stance dance bc our stance change costs half our resources.

 

Now don't have issues with ppl in heavy armor or agree they need to be nerfed or that our tank stances needs any of those things changed. I will however, agree that ranged DPS vs melee DPS atm heavily favors RDPS to the point of it being a joke. Its nothing insurmountable for me but I do know if I played a ranged class I would be able to perform at the same level with much less effort particularly since all warzone's design favors ranged particularly huttball

Heavy armor mitigation = jack and ****

 

light armor is 10%

Medium armor is 20%

and Heavy armor is 30%

 

It ONLY provides protection vs kinetic and to a lesser extent energy damage.

 

Damage types such as Internal are not mitigated by armor in any way shape or form.

 

 

your over exagerating how "good" wearing heavy armor is.

 

wrong

 

My "heavy" armor mitigates 39% my friends jugg isn't as well geared as me and mitigates just a fraction of a percent under 44%

 

Light armor mitigates less than 20% damage. it makes a huge difference in PvP and anyone who has ever played in tank stances for 5 minutes will tell you that. Most attacks being kinetic and energy are affected by armor.

BW = Balance? ...Whatever.

And all this time i just thought i sucked....

 

Just joking it is cause i suck, however this makes a lot of sense, my housemate who happens to have his PC set up next to mine is an Operative and i watch him do some insane damage on people.... knocks them down then POW they are dead before they can even get up lol

 

I sit there thinking man cant wait till im 50 and can do that (im 43 atm leveling as Deception PvP), then i realize i never will be able to do that and i get sad

And all this time i just thought i sucked....

 

Just joking it is cause i suck, however this makes a lot of sense, my housemate who happens to have his PC set up next to mine is an Operative and i watch him do some insane damage on people.... knocks them down then POW they are dead before they can even get up lol

 

I sit there thinking man cant wait till im 50 and can do that (im 43 atm leveling as Deception PvP), then i realize i never will be able to do that and i get sad

 

 

The bright side is, we are much more valuable than any operative in a team enviroments.

 

Unless it's a team of operatives. Then it's just rediculous.

Wow bro thank you for this post. I have been quietly asking myself these questions as I hit 50 and nothing really changed. Why my brother can spec into a shared class tree (Juggernaut, Rage) and have a 100% chance to crit with Smash (which hits up to 5 enemies, instant cast) after force charging someone (which is done at every opportunity) is unreal. He cranks out 250 - 275k easily every match if not more.

 

We have nothing that makes us a threat except we can stealth. I want to love this class so bad but at it's current state I'm about to just completely re-roll

Completely agree with the OP.

 

We can stealth but our class has absolutely no synergy with it.

We are the squishiest class in the game when using any charge besides Dark Charge.

Our burst out of stealth is essentially non-existent.

Our backstab, Maul, is utterly useless without a duplicity proc. And even then, it's underwhelming.

Our abilities have far too much ramp up time: 2x Voltaic Slash for your Shock to hit hard. 5 Surging Charge stacks to make your discharge hit hard. Duplicity proc to make Maul worth using. It makes very little sense to design a squishy, stealth class around abilities that you have stick on a target for awhile to finally pump out some decent damage.

 

 

 

Assassin's Spike does crits for 700 damage and knocks down for 2 seconds.

Operative's Hidden Strike crits for 5-6k and stuns for 3 seconds.

 

I understand that different classes are different, but we are both stealth classes, and as deception/madness we are even SQUISHIER than them. What exactly is the trade off here? Because I don't see it.

Minor points, but grammar issues really detract from your post (assuming you're aiming it at Bioware, as the title implies). No one can do 500k DPS. DPS is damage per second, which would imply that someone does 500,000 damage in one second.

 

Operatives have amazing (overpowered?) burst, but their sustained DPS is very weak. Hyperbole - claiming they're the best DPS in the game - only hurts your argument.

 

There are definitely issues with deception currently, but make a reasonable argument if you want to see results.

Completely agree with the OP.

 

We can stealth but our class has absolutely no synergy with it.

We are the squishiest class in the game when using any charge besides Dark Charge.

Our burst out of stealth is essentially non-existent.

Our backstab, Maul, is utterly useless without a duplicity proc. And even then, it's underwhelming.

Our abilities have far too much ramp up time: 2x Voltaic Slash for your Shock to hit hard. 5 Surging Charge stacks to make your discharge hit hard. Duplicity proc to make Maul worth using. It makes very little sense to design a squishy, stealth class around abilities that you have stick on a target for awhile to finally pump out some decent damage.

 

 

 

Assassin's Spike does crits for 700 damage and knocks down for 2 seconds.

Operative's Hidden Strike crits for 5-6k and stuns for 3 seconds.

 

I understand that different classes are different, but we are both stealth classes, and as deception/madness we are even SQUISHIER than them. What exactly is the trade off here? Because I don't see it.

 

The baseball pitcher windup from Maul and Spike also takes about .5 - 1 full second off the knockdown time. I can barely get a Maul off after a Spike. Sometimes after a Spike they get up and rotate towards me while I'm winding up the Maul which in turns grants me the "Must be behind target"

Edited January 10, 2012 by Newbrax

Minor points, but grammar issues really detract from your post (assuming you're aiming it at Bioware, as the title implies). No one can do 500k DPS. DPS is damage per second, which would imply that someone does 500,000 damage in one second.

 

Operatives have amazing (overpowered?) burst, but their sustained DPS is very weak. Hyperbole - claiming they're the best DPS in the game - only hurts your argument.

 

There are definitely issues with deception currently, but make a reasonable argument if you want to see results.

 

is not weak at all, they still pull out very decent burst even after the initial ambush. sure they have waaaay higher single target dps than a deception sin even considering their (kinda small) downtime.

 

 

considering that the 2 specs (deception and conc) cover the same role as light stealth dps with big burst, i think is quite clear that there is something wrong atm

 

ofc darkness sins should not be able to burst a tank for 15k in less than 5s (well imo no one should ) but that is easily avoidable tweaking sin stances or the trees to offer high dmg abilities high in the dps trees

Very well argued post.

 

I find the Bioware apologists very annoying: those people who say "if you want to play a rogue, re-roll Ops." Such ignorance.

 

Fact is, Deception Assassins are clearly meant to be "glass cannon stealthers". Low mitigation / big burst. This is a classic archetype, whether you come from WoW rogues, Aion Sins, or WAR's Witch Hunters.

 

 

The problem right now is that they currently fail at what they're meant to do.

This guys trying too hard to be 'intelligent'. Plus the post shouldn't be directed at Bioware/Devs, please read the forum rules. Edited January 10, 2012 by Prettydead

 

Assassin's Spike does crits for 700 damage and knocks down for 2 seconds.

Operative's Hidden Strike crits for 5-6k and stuns for 3 seconds.

 

Operatives hidden strike causes the target to have full resolve bar. Our knockdown does not.

 

 

This means we can pop the 4s stun at a later point when we need to interrupt the person we are ganking. I prefer our knockdown over hidden strike.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Varatesh