This is going to be a thread I have been wanting to do for a while. Talking about components that just seem overall weak with a few that may feel just a little to strong in the overall. We talk about the strong ones a lot, but I feel sometimes we dont recognize the ones that arent that strong, nor do we recognize the ones that are fine, just the options in slot are that much stronger. If a component is not listed, I dont feel it is to strong or weak, even if there is a better component in slot that doesnt mean all other components in that slot are weak, just weak by comparison.

Primary weapons:

This is easy every one knows this. Rapid Fire lasers, these things do very little damage and have terrible accuracy, their burst is even worse then their dps (which is lower then pretty much any other option at that range) as they dont do much damage per shot. This is litterally the worst Primary weapon.

Ion Lasers, short range like Rapids, lights and burst, but does no damage to hull and only available on a ship that will never have the engines to really use these. Unlike other ion weapons it does nothing for drain with out upgrades, and the clunkyness of swapping main weapons means that the user often loses more dps then he gains by firing a couple shots of these and swapping rather then just firing somthing else.

Secondary Weapons:

This I will try to break down by type, I am skipping scout because beyond the type 3 scout which shares more secondaries with strikes then it does with scouts all of the scout weapons are strong for what they do and have different uses.

Strikes:

Again every one knows these.

Ion missile: Its drain is laughably low, fully upgraded vs a fully upgraded concussion and the concussion drains 5 MORE energy and the Ion slows by only 10% more. Damage wise even the Ion missile is laughable as obviously it does neglegible hull damage but even its shield damage isnt all that much better then a single shot of ion lasers or even all that much better then a concussion or a cluster. A fully upgraded cluster does a little over half its damage while have under half the cast time and under 1/4th the cd time. Also since it only does damage to shields putting crit in its upgrade tiers is just sad as whether you crit or not is meaningless as most of the time their shields are mostly stripped any way.

EMP Missile: I dont want to take long on this, lets suffice to say, nearly no helpful upgrades, damage is intentionally meaningless and does nothing to truly disrupt any one, Laughably long CD. This is probably the worst weapon i have seen in this game.

Gunship: Weak/strong

Plasma/Slug: again every one knows, no one in their right minds takes Plasma over Slug and you really only need 1 of them. Plasma does barely more damage overall, but Slug upgraded vs Plasma upgraded is more accurate, has shield peircing and Plasma doesnt and has Armor Piercing and Plasma doesn't and to top it all off its damage is instantaneous rather then half and half, thus can not be offset by heals.

Systems: again going to do this by type.

Scout: Sensor beacon, doesnt do much at all, allows you to see easier, but thats already fairly easy to do, its only useful thing the debuff to enemy accuracy and evasion is very niche and with the beacon destroyable with no way to defend itself, its ultimately meaningless as any one can easily blow it up, and other systems like Target Talem just do it better.

Strike: Remote slicing, shield damage is laughable and doesnt stop the shields from regening naturally thus never actually harming the shields, duration to short CD to long number of targets affected also laughable. Doesnt lock out enough or drain enough to be a good choice.

Bomber: Ion mine, I am wondering if any one is seeing a pattern here, basically if its an ion weapon and its not a ion railgun, its worthless. It doesnt drain enough energy its damage can be chosen at times meaning it can be negligible (think some one who's shields were stripped once to help out the team by eating it and LAWLing at the hull damage and the pathetic energy drain. It also does the least damage of any Ion weapon, at least its drain is better then the pathetic Missile, but its upgrade for regen slowing is much worse so that off-sets that one advantage.

Shields: This one I am not going to break down by type.

Fortress shield: this one always makes me laugh. Its -30% base is bad, but in addition to this using it means you cant move or you'll lose it. The on use ability can not make up for that -30% base. I personally do not think any shield should go below -20% base any more since distortion and sheild projector came with them. This shield is stuck in the stone age when it was either 100% or -30% or a massive bleed through for your trouble. This needs to be taken out of the stone age and given a make over. I think no minus is needed, a lack of mobility is hurt enough in my opinion. Make Fortress and ACTUAL fortress.

Quickcharge shield: speaking of stone age this one I also feel needs the revamped -20% instead of -30. While it still has some strengths in this day the damage is to bursty for regening to be all that great. Some can still find success, but that is more to the shields engine effeciency then the shield strength itself. This component I feel only needs a minor tweak for more people to look at it.

Engines: Again no type break down.

Weapon power converter: As with most my thought on this is .... Why does this exist..... there is almost no case where some one wants this engine and that is because there is almost no case where some one needs more weapon power for lasers rather then engine power for staying alive. Least of all on the non scout ships that this is on who's engine power is quite costly.

Strong

Primary: Burst Laser cannons

Its been said every where, so going to be quick, burst damage is more neccisary then sustained. Being able to do nearly or more then missile damge with a click of a mouse is hilarious.

Shield: Distortion field

Only shield that breaks missile locks in addition to providing some of the best defense in terms of evasion passive AND on demand. The evasion isnt bad, but any time some one can take an extra missile break on a component meant EXCLUSIVELY for defense its a must take. When the component itself is a strong choice with out the missile break and still has one you find a shield choice that if its there its taken regardless of the ship.

System: Interdiction Mine. Largest hull damage AND a powerful debuff, making any other choice on a minelayer is hilarious. Not because the concussion isnt good, but because this is just plain TO Good.

Well there we go. There are some components not listed here but thats because I dont personally consider them strong or weak. While few may take them, I do feel that is more a choice of survival over offensive strength in most cases, though I feel the offensive strength provided is still high enough with out the loss of TO much defense to be a viable choice should the person want it.

What are your thoughts. Is there a component you think is weak in the grand scheme of things. Not just weak in slot because another component is just plain stronger IE if its a shield on a ship that has distortion thus you are comparing it to distortion rather then any of the other shield options on the ship/ other ships.

Primary weapons:

 

This is easy every one knows this. Rapid Fire lasers, these things do very little damage and have terrible accuracy, their burst is even worse then their dps (which is lower then pretty much any other option at that range) as they dont do much damage per shot. This is litterally the worst Primary weapon.

 

Ion Lasers, short range like Rapids, lights and burst, but does no damage to hull and only available on a ship that will never have the engines to really use these. Unlike other ion weapons it does nothing for drain with out upgrades, and the clunkyness of swapping main weapons means that the user often loses more dps then he gains by firing a couple shots of these and swapping rather then just firing somthing else.

 

 

Shields: This one I am not going to break down by type.

 

 

 

Quickcharge shield: speaking of stone age this one I also feel needs the revamped -20% instead of -30. While it still has some strengths in this day the damage is to bursty for regening to be all that great. Some can still find success, but that is more to the shields engine effeciency then the shield strength itself. This component I feel only needs a minor tweak for more people to look at it.

 

.

But....but....I was just getting Verains 'Tally-Ho! Pass the Booze!' build to actually work... (http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7290404&postcount=39)

P.S This build is actually pretty funny, and I continually do well on it. Maybe its because i expect so little of it lol

Ha, someone else loves the whiskey gladiator! That's great!

My time on strikes is sorta split between the generally superior directional shield and the interesting quick charge shield. The quick charge shield requires a different playstyle- with the 60% constant regenartion, a few seconds of F2 will whisk your shields up in power rapidly, and can be totally worth pressing in combat (with directional, you press F2 when you are safe, and only if you think you'll need it at all). The directional shields buys you more focus time to get a target down, and the quick charge makes you almost entirely immune to incidental damage.

The problem, I think, is that that second more cautious playstyle is generally worse for doing almost anything helpful for your team- but it's hard for me to judge that. I think it's fair to say that if the shield works worse with a playstyle favored by strike aces, it's in practice a worse choice.

While it could use a small buff, I don't list it as a useless component. I can actually use it and be better at some things than I would be with a directional shield- that's already 100x better than some of the weak components on your list.

Tune, your list is a good one. It does forget: Feedback shield, a lot of crap secondary components, crew passives and copilot abilities (I think it's fair to say that none of the copilot abilities are "too strong" anymore), and some of the mismatched components- interdiction drive on gunships, charged plating on anything without an armor component. I'm a huge fan of how thermite torpedo didn't end up on this list any more- I think their job with that component is admirable. I also want to see how the new EMP 1 button plays out, it could change the meta a wee bit.

I have a mastered version of remote slicing on my clarion, and I don't consider in that weak. I definitely think the range should be more- with the EMP buff, both hit that 5km mark, which is very important when using it for this "hold this thermite for me a sec ty bro" feature, but EMP has other functions, and remote slicing sorta doesn't. I think if you want to keep the range small, that the regen disable you bring up is a good point.

For mines, I disagree that the seismic and interdiction are too strong. I disagree because there ARE counters (sadly, the counters don't make the meta more interesting, as they are other boy bombers running charged plating)- but mostly because I want you to picture walking into a node full of mines that will just hurt your shields and then be done. You eat a mine, press F2, eat a mine, etc. Unless a scout is on you, the bomber can't chase you, and all your damage is shield damage. You become Pacman To Mines. Mines are fundamentally unlike other things in that they deny area. In fact, I'd list every mine besides seismic, interdiction, and seeker as being in need of buffs or something extra.

You COULD make a meta without mines with 100% shield ignore. They could have 20% shield ignore, and take longer to kill you. You could make one mine with no shield ignore but full armor ignore, and then give ion preferential triggering or something, such that your goal-score would be an ion followed by this armor ignore mine, or whatever. I've typed plenty on this, and recently so has Nemarus- but I don't think these mines can be fixed by, say, reducing their hull damage. The boy bombers are already very very niche outside of domination.

Ha, someone else loves the whiskey gladiator! That's great!

 

My time on strikes is sorta split between the generally superior directional shield and the interesting quick charge shield. The quick charge shield requires a different playstyle- with the 60% constant regenartion, a few seconds of F2 will whisk your shields up in power rapidly, and can be totally worth pressing in combat (with directional, you press F2 when you are safe, and only if you think you'll need it at all). The directional shields buys you more focus time to get a target down, and the quick charge makes you almost entirely immune to incidental damage.

 

The problem, I think, is that that second more cautious playstyle is generally worse for doing almost anything helpful for your team- but it's hard for me to judge that. I think it's fair to say that if the shield works worse with a playstyle favored by strike aces, it's in practice a worse choice.

 

While it could use a small buff, I don't list it as a useless component. I can actually use it and be better at some things than I would be with a directional shield- that's already 100x better than some of the weak components on your list.

 

 

 

 

Tune, your list is a good one. It does forget: Feedback shield, a lot of crap secondary components, crew passives and copilot abilities (I think it's fair to say that none of the copilot abilities are "too strong" anymore), and some of the mismatched components- interdiction drive on gunships, charged plating on anything without an armor component. I'm a huge fan of how thermite torpedo didn't end up on this list any more- I think their job with that component is admirable. I also want to see how the new EMP 1 button plays out, it could change the meta a wee bit.

 

I have a mastered version of remote slicing on my clarion, and I don't consider in that weak. I definitely think the range should be more- with the EMP buff, both hit that 5km mark, which is very important when using it for this "hold this thermite for me a sec ty bro" feature, but EMP has ot good her functions, and remote slicing sorta doesn't. I think if you want to keep the range small, that the regen disable you bring up is apoint.

 

 

For mines, I disagree that the seismic and interdiction are too strong. I disagree because there ARE counters (sadly, the counters don't make the meta more interesting, as they are other boy bombers running charged plating)- but mostly because I want you to picture walking into a node full of mines that will just hurt your shields and then be done. You eat a mine, press F2, eat a mine, etc. Unless a scout is on you, the bomber can't chase you, and all your damage is shield damage. You become Pacman To Mines. Mines are fundamentally unlike other things in that they deny area. In fact, I'd list every mine besides seismic, interdiction, and seeker as being in need of buffs or something extra.

 

You COULD make a meta without mines with 100% shield ignore. They could have 20% shield ignore, and take longer to kill you. You could make one mine with no shield ignore but full armor ignore, and then give ion preferential triggering or something, such that your goal-score would be an ion followed by this armor ignore mine, or whatever. I've typed plenty on this, and recently so has Nemarus- but I don't think these mines can be fixed by, say, reducing their hull damage. The boy bombers are already very very niche outside of domination.

Ya I just ignored secondary components as you noticed as well as crew. Also ignored Item Placement, if its on the wrong ship that doesnt make the item inherintly weak, it just makes it on the wrong ship. As long as its on a ship that it is good on, aka some one will actually choose it over any other not stupid choice IE Plating or interdiction on a Bomber. I didnt place Feedback, because I dont think its inherintly weak, it gives gunships no passive nerf to shield strength thus a solid defense, in addition to dealing damage which we have both seen people get kills with hilariously. The reason its not taken is Distortions strength not Feedbacks weaknesses, though its still fair to say the on use doesnt last long enough or doesnt do enough damage if thats what you think .

I also did NOT list Seismic Mines as to strong, only interdiction. Interdiction was listed as to strong because its damage is the best of the mine systems while also providing a debuff, where as concussion the "pure damage" one just doesnt cut the damage. I am fine with Seismic, Interdiction is the one that does just a little to much and its probably in the damage catagory. Its a utility weapon and should be treated as such, right now thats not the case.

Interdiction does 330 base, Concussion 905 base (724 shield, 181 to hull). Concussion you can even get 16% extra damage to hull.

Fully upgraded, an interdiction mine does 429 straight to hull- much of this being the 30% dot on the right T5. The fully upgraded concussion scores 315 direct to hull on a fully shielded target- it's not even that far off.

The thing is, the interdiction also snares, which is big, but also you can manually detonate much more often. Concussion baselines two mines. If the functionality was changed such that pressing a mine button when the mine is on cooldown manually detonated all mines of that type, I think we'd see a lot of people interested in concussion.

More importantly, these mines answer the same question, and interdiction is more loquacious. "What can I put on a satellite that will hurt people so that they can't use their better maneuverability to get up my tail". If concussion answered a different question- "how do I best do anything but that"- then that would be fine. But if the mines are going to be narrow, you'll pick the one that is the best at the narrow part.

I didnt place Feedback, because I dont think its inherintly weak, it gives gunships no passive nerf to shield strength thus a solid defense, in addition to dealing damage which we have both seen people get kills with hilariously. The reason its not taken is Distortions strength not Feedbacks weaknesses, though its still fair to say the on use doesnt last long enough or doesnt do enough damage if thats what you think .

I think part of my problem is that feedback has a weak secondary effect. Sure you can get a kill with the feedback effect. But the damage is usually so minimal that unless the person shooting at you is already almost dead it barely scratches them. It would be nice if feedback had a small shield piercing component to actually make it a potential threat since the ship actually has to get shot to make it effective. On the plus side it does have really nice uptime on it.

And Ion cannons might make decent weapons if you gave a 50% increase to the drain. I run a close variant on the whisky gladiator, and it makes for a great support ship (or just a nice ship if you completely outclass the enemy team. Just strip shields off then move to the next target.)

Interdiction does 330 base, Concussion 905 base (724 shield, 181 to hull). Concussion you can even get 16% extra damage to hull.

 

Fully upgraded, an interdiction mine does 429 straight to hull- much of this being the 30% dot on the right T5. The fully upgraded concussion scores 315 direct to hull on a fully shielded target- it's not even that far off.

 

The thing is, the interdiction also snares, which is big, but also you can manually detonate much more often. Concussion baselines two mines. If the functionality was changed such that pressing a mine button when the mine is on cooldown manually detonated all mines of that type, I think we'd see a lot of people interested in concussion.

 

 

More importantly, these mines answer the same question, and interdiction is more loquacious. "What can I put on a satellite that will hurt people so that they can't use their better maneuverability to get up my tail". If concussion answered a different question- "how do I best do anything but that"- then that would be fine. But if the mines are going to be narrow, you'll pick the one that is the best at the narrow part.

Say interdiction did, 300 damage buffed instead and only half of its damage went to hull (150 to shield, 150 to hull) would every one take it...... No, would it still be useful and would a few people still take it.... yes. Right now its pure damage directly to hull is so strong no other systems mine is even wroth thinking about.

You look at concussion mines they arent bad, but no one takes them not because they are to weak but because Interdiction is to strong. That was the requirement for being listed as strong. When perfectly fine and viable options are available you still never even think about choosing them because the other just does everthing better.

Interdiction Mine also has the effect of turning enemy bombers and gunships into sitting ducks/free kills for your allies. I'd probably still keep Interdiction if it were nerfed. We'll see if they even feel it needs adjustment.

I actually think the other mines need to be buffed, who the heck uses Ion Mine in a real match and finds it more useful?

Interdiction Mine also has the effect of turning enemy bombers and gunships into sitting ducks/free kills for your allies. I'd probably still keep Interdiction if it were nerfed. We'll see if they even feel it needs adjustment.

 

I actually think the other mines need to be buffed, who the heck uses Ion Mine in a real match and finds it more useful?

Note Ion was placed on the "weak" list lol, my point is if it did less damage, it would be a choice then. you wouldnt look at people funny when they didnt choose interdiction. We might still choose it, but concussion would be another option .

Ha, someone else loves the whiskey gladiator! That's great!

That actually sounds like an awesome underdog build, exactly my kind of build!

*pulls down the curtain from Star Guard*

Sorry that I won't exactly do a whiskey gladiator. I hate how that ship looks. But you may have just given my Star Guard a purpose.

That actually sounds like an awesome underdog build, exactly my kind of build!

 

*pulls down the curtain from Star Guard*

 

Sorry that I won't exactly do a whiskey gladiator. I hate how that ship looks. But you may have just given my Star Guard a purpose.

If you dont like the look, check out its cousin the Whiskey pike http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=729222&page=19

That actually sounds like an awesome underdog build, exactly my kind of build!

There's no doubt that the build is not really competitive. But it has several things that are interesting:

1)- The build DOES have a unique playstyle.

2)- The build is actually optimal at something- any close range combat you can stay in for, you will have a really low time to kill any non-charged plating target. Not up there with a burst scout with CDs, but you don't need CDs. You'll definitely outdamage him outside of his CDs.

3)- You have less options, but they are more focused. Powerwise, you are probably better off with the opposite of this, but this is still a straightforward combat mechanic.

4)- Quick charge shields actually work surprisingly well with this. The more I play them, the more convinced I am that they and directionals are pretty balanced. I'd still buff them a wee bit, but this is nice. They do mean you play differently, though.

Essentially, you get a playstyle out of this ship, and the playstyle mostly works- but the powerlevel of it isn't where it kind of could be, hence the part where it's not really a great setup overall.

Like, pretend gunships had come into the game with really weak everything- say the railguns were like 1000 max damage or something, and they were less maneuverable. You'd still play them for their playstyle, but you wouldn't play them seriously. It's kinda like that (but not as bad as a 1000 damage railgun obv).

I believe the ship would be competitive for sure if rapid fire laser were buffed, or light laser made available.

There's no doubt that the build is not really competitive. But it has several things that are interesting:

 

1)- The build DOES have a unique playstyle.

2)- The build is actually optimal at something- any close range combat you can stay in for, you will have a really low time to kill any non-charged plating target. Not up there with a burst scout with CDs, but you don't need CDs. You'll definitely outdamage him outside of his CDs.

3)- You have less options, but they are more focused. Powerwise, you are probably better off with the opposite of this, but this is still a straightforward combat mechanic.

4)- Quick charge shields actually work surprisingly well with this. The more I play them, the more convinced I am that they and directionals are pretty balanced. I'd still buff them a wee bit, but this is nice. They do mean you play differently, though.

 

 

 

Essentially, you get a playstyle out of this ship, and the playstyle mostly works- but the powerlevel of it isn't where it kind of could be, hence the part where it's not really a great setup overall.

 

Like, pretend gunships had come into the game with really weak everything- say the railguns were like 1000 max damage or something, and they were less maneuverable. You'd still play them for their playstyle, but you wouldn't play them seriously. It's kinda like that (but not as bad as a 1000 damage railgun obv).

 

I believe the ship would be competitive for sure if rapid fire laser were buffed, or light laser made available.

And or Quick Charge had larger base shields/better on use... bassically just a few tweeks to survival and to damage would make it viable.

I kinda feel that Charged Plating should be on that list of weak components. It may be good under some circumstances but it really seems so niche that it's not an overall good component. Especially for strikers since the favored weapons of the majority of the opponents they will face all have armor piercing options (some with shield pierce too).

In its niche it's very good, not doubt of that. But because the meta has so much armor piercing it seems overall a weak component that needs a little more love to make it truly competitive with more versatile shield options.

For strong components my time flying a Type 3 striker is increasingly convincing me that thermite torpedoes belong on that list. Between their debuffs and total damage those things can present a serious threat if used well.

I kinda feel that Charged Plating should be on that list of weak components.

I don't. It's game altering when used right. I would be ok with a redesign that makes it more general purpose, but it's very very much immunity to mines, while being vulnerable to anything that pierces armor.

In its niche it's very good, not doubt of that. But because the meta has so much armor piercing it seems overall a weak component that needs a little more love to make it truly competitive with more versatile shield options.

I would want it to not be immunity to certain ships then, if it wasn't going to have weaknesses.

For strong components my time flying a Type 3 striker is increasingly convincing me that thermite torpedoes belong on that list. Between their debuffs and total damage those things can present a serious threat if used well.

Which list? I think thermites are pretty perfect right now. They are hard to land, but have good payoff.

I don't. It's game altering when used right. I would be ok with a redesign that makes it more general purpose, but it's very very much immunity to mines, while being vulnerable to anything that pierces armor.

 

 

 

I would want it to not be immunity to certain ships then, if it wasn't going to have weaknesses.

 

 

 

Which list? I think thermites are pretty perfect right now. They are hard to land, but have good payoff.

He thinks thermites might be to strong, but the difficulty landing them on the ships they are on make it alright i think. Clearly thats what I think, but hey this place is for more then just me to discuss weak and strong, any one who has a component thats not on the list for weak or strong and you think they are weak or strong in general say which .

Thermites too strong? HOW ON EARTH?

It doesn't even outperform versus other missiles. The only missile that is overtuned on live is cluster, and that's probably on purpose because of the playstyle choice it involves.

A long lock on slow projectile missile being actually worth casting is a good thing.

He thinks thermites might be to strong, but the difficulty landing them on the ships they are on make it alright i think. Clearly thats what I think, but hey this place is for more then just me to discuss weak and strong, any one who has a component thats not on the list for weak or strong and you think they are weak or strong in general say which .

I wouldn't say too strong (certainly not in the same league as BLC anway). It is my impression that it might be a superior choice to protons. I guess that, for me anyway, all of the perks of thermites make protons a hard sell on a ship like the T3 striker that can choose either one.

That being said the more I thought about it the more I think it may also just be that I have a lot more success with thermites than I did with protons so it's just a placebo effect of making it seem like thermites are stronger when in fact they're perfectly balanced with protons. In which case I retract my earlier statement.

I don't. It's game altering when used right. I would be ok with a redesign that makes it more general purpose, but it's very very much immunity to mines, while being vulnerable to anything that pierces armor.

I was thinking more along these lines of tweaking it to be more general purpose. I by no means want it to have no weaknesses (that would just be Dfield madness all over again).

I wouldn't say too strong (certainly not in the same league as BLC), except when compared to protons. I guess that, for me anyway, all of the perks of thermites make protons a hard sell especially on a ship like the T3 striker. Thinking about it more it may also just be that I have a lot more success with thermites than I did with protons so there's a placebo effect of making it seem like thermites are stronger when in fact they're perfectly balanced with protons. In which case I retract my statement implying that thermites may be too strong.

 

 

 

I was thinking more along these lines of tweaking it to be more general purpose. I by no means want it to have no weaknesses (that would just be Dfield madness all over again).

honestly I wouldnt want to tweak Thermites down I would want to tweak Protons up. For a pure damage missile I dont know that it does enough. It is HARD to get off. Personally I think it should do 1000 damage, though that would 1 shot scouts, but they have 2 missile breaks and are the fastest ships in the game, if some one manages to get one of these bad boys off it SHOULD hurt. Any way thats my 2 cents on that, though admitedly 1000 might be a little high .

honestly I wouldnt want to tweak Thermites down I would want to tweak Protons up. For a pure damage missile I dont know that it does enough. It is HARD to get off. Personally I think it should do 1000 damage, though that would 1 shot scouts, but they have 2 missile breaks and are the fastest ships in the game, if some one manages to get one of these bad boys off it SHOULD hurt. Any way thats my 2 cents on that, though admitedly 1000 might be a little high .

Thermites do seem like they're in a good place now (especially compared to what they once were) and you may be spot on that protons need a bump up. I guess what was most noticeable for me is that without bypass and/or HLC protons are less useful than thermites since you'll still have to punch through a ship's entire shield pool before you can follow up the hull damage of protons with blaster damage. Compared to bomber hunting with protons in my Pike and bomber hunting with thermites in my Clarion I feel that I do a better job in my Clarion (but again that might just be a placebo of I think I can do better and therefore I do do better).

Even though discussion moved to Thermites (which are awesome and great, I use them on my Spearpoint), I will just rewind a tad back and give my feedback on Quick Charge and RFL.

Quick Charge is awesome shield, no matter the low capacity, because it recharges so fast that you can be pretty much back at full between jousts. You just can't let people shoot you too long (which I am used to, as I am mainly scout pilot). It is not the shield that will tank damage for you, it is shield that will cover unexpected damage before you begin with defensive maneuvering. And don't get me started on the engine regeneration boost, which is a godsend.

And RFL, while throwing out really petty damage, is very fun. I started an Imp toon for GSF, and I use RFL's on the stock Blackbolt with huge success. The fact that it has nigh infinite energy makes it perfect for spray and pray kind of playstyle. It is true that all other lasers are better, but that doesn't make RFL straight bad! I actually put them on my Spearpoint to mow down the Empire with an insane amount of tickles. Fo shizzle.

Even though discussion moved to Thermites (which are awesome and great, I use them on my Spearpoint), I will just rewind a tad back and give my feedback on Quick Charge and RFL.

 

Quick Charge is awesome shield, no matter the low capacity, because it recharges so fast that you can be pretty much back at full between jousts. You just can't let people shoot you too long (which I am used to, as I am mainly scout pilot). It is not the shield that will tank damage for you, it is shield that will cover unexpected damage before you begin with defensive maneuvering. And don't get me started on the engine regeneration boost, which is a godsend.

 

And RFL, while throwing out really petty damage, is very fun. I started an Imp toon for GSF, and I use RFL's on the stock Blackbolt with huge success. The fact that it has nigh infinite energy makes it perfect for spray and pray kind of playstyle. It is true that all other lasers are better, but that doesn't make RFL straight bad! I actually put them on my Spearpoint to mow down the Empire with an insane amount of tickles. Fo shizzle.

I agree about quick charge to a degree. To me it needs very little tweeking. Their are only 4 ships that even get it as an option. The 4 earliest strikes and scouts. Few will take it though for easy to see reasons. The first is just pure how powerful distortion field is. On the Nova dive the whole "extra speed" portion of the arguement is completely over ridden by the access to an engine power converter of which has beefier base shields any way. (heck a nova dive with this speced for more shield strength then engine strength has a massive 1755 shields while still having a good 24% evasion, this is higher then a Pike taking quick charge with a shield power converter speced for shields. ) The second reason is the only other people who have access to it is the strike fighters. The Fighter with the beefiest shields by default (thus the -30% hits them hardest) and the highest regen passive. The speed boost brings the Strike in line with scouts which is awesome, but the low shields and fairly weak on use means their effective health is massivly weaker then a scout and they cant deliver the kind of punishment a scout can with Rocket pods AND/or Burst lasers. So even abusing the regen will eventually lose the war of attrition as the scout still turns faster and does better burst while also having overall beefier shields.

The main other option that isnt niche (the niche being charged plating) is Directional, and here is somthing I want to compare for you guys on a Pike (I can do Star gaurd as well if you want just say so if you want, but basically the only arguements for even thinking about using it is on these 2 since scouts purely have better options either for speed or for tankyness). The regen Delay on Directional is 3 seconds vs Regen Delay on Quick Charge is 6, Recently consumed protions of quick charge allows it to continue to regen some while its waiting. Assuming you have 8 seconds (usually time is shorter then this between jousts) a Directional shield pike speced for capacity will regen 450 shields per arc (3 seconds of 0 regen 5 seconds of 90), by swaping arcs regen rate goes up how much is unknown (likely 20%). Quick charge on the other hand will have recharged 468 (30 for the first 6 seconds "recently consumed rate" and 144 for 2 seconds) The Directional shields start out with a 2100 per arc strength BEFORE arc swaping (likely 20% more as is with power) and Quick Charge start out with 1440 (+ 30% if you use the ability thus 1872) and in these common short joust and regen suggested it would take over 10 rotations of this or likely around several minutes in continual short joust for it to ever be better then Direction. Direction will recharge faster if people are using the arcs and are sitting in engine or weapon power on both the Directional and the Quick Charge, in engine or weapon power regen rate is dropped 10% for each arc, but some one that has his shields double front or back will still have the 120% for that arc on the directionals. Meaning that ultimately Directional has both the beefier shields and the faster recharging, because 60% base is no where near as good as 3 second drop to regen delay.

The best description we have for the thermites is (from PTR):

"Fires a long-range lock-on torpedo that deals 575 damage on impact, and another 575 damage over 15 seconds. The missile is even more effective against hulls, doing 150% damage. It also reduces the target's damage reduction by 100% and causes 20% of all incoming damage to bleed through the target's shield for 15 seconds."

This is probably just a tooltip fix, but this may be a nerf from live, or possibly a bugfix/nerf?

On live, my upgraded thermites say:

Damage versus shields: 1208

Damage versus hull: 1811

In both cases they have 20% shield piercing and 100% armor piercing.

Unupgraded they say:

Damage versus shields: 1150

Damage versus hull: 1725

So, the first question- is thermite changing? 1150 is the base value on live, and divided by two yields 575- the value in the PTR tooltip. 1150 x 1.5= 1725- the 50% extra hull damage matches the hull value we see.

So it sounds like all of these descriptions are correct. On live, the initial hit is for 575 on shields- but it has 20% shield piercing. So that's 460 damage to SHIELDS, and 115 to hull- but the hull is boosted by 50%.

On live, you'd expect a thermite to hit a fully shielded target for about 632 initial, broken down as 460 to shields and 172 to hull. I think this is exactly what we are seeing on live- I have a screenshot of a thermite hitting for 664, and my base damage of 1208 to shields predicts 604 initial hit as 483s+121h*1.5= 664.

Then there's the matter of the dot. This is where things get confusing. On live, I see varying values for the dot, and I never understand them. I'm always thinking "oh, maybe that was on a shield, and that was on the rest of the shield and then the hull, and then just hull", but I don't think that cuts it. Last game I saw a dot tick for 181, 150, and 142 (I have a screenshot of the 142, the others I just made a mental note of).

None of these is close to a 575 dot ticking every second for 15 seconds- that would be 38 damage to shield, 58 damage to hull. But I think it doesn't tick every second- I think it ticks every three? I'm not sure where to get this information. But even that is confusing. Importantly, the values are high enough that the dot might actually be ticking to hull directly, something I have a devil of a time verifying- whenever an enemy flees from the torp I don't see the numbers normally, and if he doesn't, I normally add enough numbers that I can't make out the dot at all!

So thermites are pretty confusing. Initially my thermite is dealing about 182 to hull directly, and a proton would have hit for 872. If the dot ticks are really happening to hull, then every tick should be 181 for a total of 905 damage to hull from the dot, totaling 1087 to hull- I don't think this is happening. I think much of my dot ticks versus shields, but really nothing adds up about this dot. I should be seeing 170 ticks- 97 to shield, 73 to hull- and never lower. But I definitely see lower, and higher.

In any event, if the missile works like we expect, it's less hull damage to a shielded target than a proton torpedo is, while applying a valuable debuff.

604 initial becomes: 483s+181h=664, so 181 hull damage.

Remaining 604 would normally tick 5 times for 121 each but with 20% shield piercing, for 36 damage per tick over five ticks (182 hull damage), but you can talent an extra tick, so 218 to hull.

So you'd expect a thermite to deal just about 400 to hull over its full duration if fired at a fully shielded target, and a proton will deal 872 (and can crit- the proton's average damage is 916, as 10% of the time it deals 1308 straight to hull). If it's even CLOSE to that, then thermite and proton both have niches- the thermite will outperform greatly on any target that doesn't have initial shields (1991 damage total, as 905 initial and six ticks of 181), or on any target being attacked, but the proton will deal the damage in burst, immediately, and work on a fresh target.

The best description we have for the thermites is (from PTR):

 

"Fires a long-range lock-on torpedo that deals 575 damage on impact, and another 575 damage over 15 seconds. The missile is even more effective against hulls, doing 150% damage. It also reduces the target's damage reduction by 100% and causes 20% of all incoming damage to bleed through the target's shield for 15 seconds."

 

This is probably just a tooltip fix, but this may be a nerf from live, or possibly a bugfix/nerf?

 

On live, my upgraded thermites say:

 

Damage versus shields: 1208

Damage versus hull: 1811

 

In both cases they have 20% shield piercing and 100% armor piercing.

 

Unupgraded they say:

Damage versus shields: 1150

Damage versus hull: 1725

 

 

 

So, the first question- is thermite changing? 1150 is the base value on live, and divided by two yields 575- the value in the PTR tooltip. 1150 x 1.5= 1725- the 50% extra hull damage matches the hull value we see.

 

 

 

So it sounds like all of these descriptions are correct. On live, the initial hit is for 575 on shields- but it has 20% shield piercing. So that's 460 damage to SHIELDS, and 115 to hull- but the hull is boosted by 50%.

 

On live, you'd expect a thermite to hit a fully shielded target for about 632 initial, broken down as 460 to shields and 172 to hull. I think this is exactly what we are seeing on live- I have a screenshot of a thermite hitting for 664, and my base damage of 1208 to shields predicts 604 initial hit as 483s+121h*1.5= 664.

 

Then there's the matter of the dot. This is where things get confusing. On live, I see varying values for the dot, and I never understand them. I'm always thinking "oh, maybe that was on a shield, and that was on the rest of the shield and then the hull, and then just hull", but I don't think that cuts it. Last game I saw a dot tick for 181, 150, and 142 (I have a screenshot of the 142, the others I just made a mental note of).

 

None of these is close to a 575 dot ticking every second for 15 seconds- that would be 38 damage to shield, 58 damage to hull. But I think it doesn't tick every second- I think it ticks every three? I'm not sure where to get this information. But even that is confusing. Importantly, the values are high enough that the dot might actually be ticking to hull directly, something I have a devil of a time verifying- whenever an enemy flees from the torp I don't see the numbers normally, and if he doesn't, I normally add enough numbers that I can't make out the dot at all!

 

 

 

 

So thermites are pretty confusing. Initially my thermite is dealing about 182 to hull directly, and a proton would have hit for 872. If the dot ticks are really happening to hull, then every tick should be 181 for a total of 905 damage to hull from the dot, totaling 1087 to hull- I don't think this is happening. I think much of my dot ticks versus shields, but really nothing adds up about this dot. I should be seeing 170 ticks- 97 to shield, 73 to hull- and never lower. But I definitely see lower, and higher.

 

 

 

 

In any event, if the missile works like we expect, it's less hull damage to a shielded target than a proton torpedo is, while applying a valuable debuff.

 

604 initial becomes: 483s+181h=664, so 181 hull damage.

Remaining 604 would normally tick 5 times for 121 each but with 20% shield piercing, for 36 damage per tick over five ticks (182 hull damage), but you can talent an extra tick, so 218 to hull.

 

 

So you'd expect a thermite to deal just about 400 to hull over its full duration if fired at a fully shielded target, and a proton will deal 872 (and can crit- the proton's average damage is 916, as 10% of the time it deals 1308 straight to hull). If it's even CLOSE to that, then thermite and proton both have niches- the thermite will outperform greatly on any target that doesn't have initial shields (1991 damage total, as 905 initial and six ticks of 181), or on any target being attacked, but the proton will deal the damage in burst, immediately, and work on a fresh target.

The Dot is doing at LEAST 40% of the damage to hull because the DoT like the rest of the missile has 20% shield piercing, but to top this all out the DoT ALSO places a 20% shield pierce debuff on the target, Thus the DoT is actually 40% overall shield peircing. So 60% hits shields (if they are up) the other 40% hits the hull at a 50% increased damage.

So for that last part is 604 damage with 121 ticks with 40% shield pierce (20% from the missile, 20% from the debuff applied by the missile) thus 48 of shield damage a tick is actually being 72 hull damage thus the number will be around 145 in this case (if it hits full hull obviously the number is 180) and the overall hull damage is 360 from the DoT The talented extra tick makes it 432, with the 172 from the initial hit that makes that 604 direct hull damage.

Edit: the PTS tool Tips DO NOT have any of the upgrades taken into account. I checked this by loading up the unupgraded thermite on my Spearpoint and the upgraded one on my clarion. The tool tips read the same, but obviously the upgrades change a few things.

"The Dot is doing at LEAST 40% of the damage to hull because the DoT like the rest of the missile has 20% shield piercing, but to top this all out the DoT ALSO places a 20% shield pierce debuff on the target"

You could be correct, but do you know this for sure?

Go shoot this thing 10 times in a game and look at all your dot ticks. If it was just this, you would see:

120.8 base value, 72.48 to shield, 48.32 x 1.5 = 72.48 to hull (the values are the same because 0.6 is the same as 0.4x1.5)= 145.

Do you always see the value of the tick at 145? The 142 is close enough, I guess. But have you never seen it lower?

I get like 615 hull damage with this assumption, but it p. late.

My assumption was that the dot has 20% piercing only because of the 20% piercing debuff- I didn't think it inherited the missile piercing.

Next time you are thermiting, make a note of all the dot ticks you see.