Hey look its another Revan Bashing Thread !

Sweet lets look at whats inside

 

1. Opinionated biased nonefacts ................................check

2. Haters attacking Fanbase of Revan ........................check

3. Fanbase on defense.................................................check

4. Belittling of others ....................................................check

5. Compairison to ForceUsers out the timeline ............Double Check'

6. Opinions gone wild....................................................Check and Check

 

Revan , the most trolled Character in all of StarWars

 

Still to this day , we have little clue of what Revan's skills or abilities were .

We know he ignored the Counsil and went to war with the Mando's to help say the Republic .

We know his ability to Command Troops and Recruit brought him the Command of the Republic Navy and Military

We know he was greatly Charsmatic and was able to recruit many Jedi and Jedi Masters to his cause.

We know he was skilled at using a LightSaber but no Clue in what styles he mastered .

We know he was a Frontliner and aggressive in Combat , much like Anakin Skywalker

We know he is one of the Few able to break the Emperor's mind control.

We know he had enough power worthy of becoming a timeless Milkshake for the Emperor.

We know Revan WAS a DarkJedi then Sithlord

We know Revan WAS a Jedi Knight but not a Master

We know he influenced the Emperor and stopped the total take over of the Republic.

 

I find most the Debat in here Laughable and is extremely biased . I mean besides seeing people put Revan in their opinionated Top ten so and so , I do not see Revan Fanboys making thread after thread of their love of but there is a ALOT of threads to attack the Character and his fanbase .

 

I am going to point out a few things

1 Exar Kun is much older but arguably more Powerful than Revan , but Exar Kun thousands of years later as a Ghost was still a menace to those who by these debat should have been able to handle him with easy . So the whole timeline deal is kinda out the window.

 

2 To compair Revan to someone like Mace and expect a outcome different than Mace winning is a really lacking Debat . If Revan was Born in the Days of Mace , the story would be completely Different .

We we know is Revan did hunger for knowledge and often traded Masters to get the most out of the Jedi Training . Not to mention Revan was really good at learning Writing and Langauges lost to the Republic .

*If Revan was Born in the Days of Mace and had the same layout for learning as Mace , it would be highly doubtful that the fight would be so onesided as people saying on Mace's behalf.

 

Revan is a intresting Character because he can lose but also has great achievements of his own .

He is powerful , doesn't matter the biased opinions of others .

His bloodline lead to one of the Greatest Jedi , GrandMaster Satele Shan .

 

Aurbere I like most your threads/post but this one , you really have come out biased on this one . My reply is not to attack you but really I hope you seen this coming .

 

I could go all day into Pros of Revan but I am instead going to post a con's of Revan just so I can join the Biased Revan Haters to put my opinions in their Revan vs The StarWars Galaxies fights !

 

You are 100% correct.

 

We are all guilty of being biased at times.

 

As for myself - I agree that these comparisons of Jedi and Sith can be retarded and very flawed. The way I often find myself sucked into these debates is like so; someone will say something like (for example) that Mace would wipe the floor with Revan. I realize that Mace Windu is extremely powerful, and I agree that he would beat Revan, but I feel that the fight would last at least a few minutes (whereas some people make it out to look like the fight would be over in seconds). I don't feel this way just because of what I think of Revan, I just don't think that landslide victories happen as often as people think. Let's get real, Revan has the abilties to lose respectively to Mace Windu. In the end, there's no way for Revan to win, but he'd give it all he had and would make things interesting for a bit.

 

But yeah, I also feel that Revan is being underrated more often then he is overrated. How often does a Revanite come out and say that Revan is one of the most powerful beings ever? Not often.

Revan vs Haters

After all the Haters love to hate on Revan and his Fanbase/Fanboys

 

1 Revan vs Mace Mace is a skilled out Master of Woop you with a LightSaber with evil stares that would make your Grandma pee her pants and hide behind her Bible . Being Revan is from less Lightsaber skilled times he would have to rely on Forcepowers and we have no clue what forcepowers he really knows and how well he knows them . Being Revan is likely not forgotten by the days of Mace , if Revan somehow had a timeMachine and was Darth Revan , Mace would likely go out all Pulpfiction on Revan and it wouldn't end well.

So who really wins this ?

*** Time , after all if Revan was born in the Mace's lifetime , he might well likely learnt from Mace as we do know Revan loved to learn as much as he could from as many Masters as he could .

 

2 Revan vs Malgus Both extremely aggressive fighters , with both really unknown in Power strength . We know Malgus became more powerful in False Emperor but we still really do not know the level or power of Revan . So without knowing and going on OPINION alone like everyone else , I'd have to give this fight to Malgus . We can see Malgus is really good at disarming Jedi and Sith of their lightsabers as in 2 out of 3 CG movies he disarms the Jedi he is fighting with ease . We know Malgus is not a Darth Vader as Malgus waste no time talking and just goes in for the kill .

 

Revan vs Exile This fight would never happen and we have no clue if Revan was more powerful or not over Exile . We know Exile's skills and abilities , we also know she was EXTREMELY LOYAL to Revan and followed him into everything with almost no question . I like Exile as much as Revan and I will not pretend to know or care who will win this fight . In my opinion they are likely equal in most things but Revan was always more of a natural leader . Does not mean Exile is or was unable to lead as she was a Natural leader in her own right . We can go all day with this but when it comes down to it , it will all be opinion as the fight never happened and never would have . Their story was linked as friends with her being above all and loyal to Revan to the very end and even then loyal in death.

 

Revan vs Luke Skywalker I really doublt ROTJ Luke could beat really any well known and killed Jedi or Sith , Luke was only powerful in his ability and chance to be the Son of Probably the most powerful or Could have been the most Powerful ForceUser in history Anakin Skywalker . Luke only had to be there to sway Vader from Palpatine's Control , which lead to Anakin finally being balance to the Force ............but according to EU that did not happen as many more DarkJedi came later . Maybe the end of the Sith but did not stop the Darkside from conituing past the point of ROTJ . So in the end EU Luke Fanboys Extreme would blink and Revan would be nothing more but ROTJ or to the point to ROTJ Luke , Revan wins easy just because he has learned more .

Revan vs Vader, Yoda , Obi-Wan , Darth Maul , Sidious .................................without saying time is the Winner here .

Although Sidious and Yoda would still very much wipe the floor with Revan depending on what he learned if he would have been around in the days of PT . Its to my opinion he would have been still no match for them as they are pretty polar opposites Light and Dark .

 

OK now done with the Revan vs the World ..............

 

It is too my belief that according to the Haters in this thread and in the One Hundred Qadrillion other (I HATE)Revan Threads that the Haters would say JarJar could beat Revan with JarJar being Blind Folded and Hog Tied . There is just no Reasoning with people who make it their life to hate something or someone . Being Revan is still so unknown and little light has been shed on his abilities or skills , its really all Opinion and G-Canon is no more so the lame Lucas said this and that is very much a Debat that has no floor to stand on anymore .

 

So please make a Billion more threads on Revan and how he was just a person who would lose to everyone and everything blah Blah BLAH , we get it .

Edited November 20, 2012 by mefit

All of those are debatable (except for the Emperor), but for arguments sake we'll say Kun and Sunrider are better then Revan and the Exile is Revan's equal. But the thing is neither Kun or Sunrider are alive during Revan's prime (I believe). So that means that Revan is only second to the Emperor and tied with the Exile during his time.

 

When Exar Kun was alive it is Debatable that Revan was not even Born yet , according to the Revan Haters if we go by Time and Archives . Revan likely learned all about Exar Kun , his skills and his abilities . And By the Revan Haters theory alone , if time gives the ability to win all Revan would man Handle Kun .

 

Now by what we know of Exar Kun he was the Most Powerful of his lifetime , The Jedi we afraid of him . Exar Kun later as a Force Ghost caused alot of issues with Luke Skywalker and his Jedi . Likely Exar Kun is a example of how just because hes the deep past does not make him weaker than those of the Future . So Exar Kun would likely beat Revan , and I say this ONLY because we know what Skills and Abilities EXAR KUN had and we don't of Revan !

You are 100% correct.

 

We are all guilty of being biased at times.

 

As for myself - I agree that these comparisons of Jedi and Sith can be retarded and very flawed. The way I often find myself sucked into these debates is like so; someone will say something like (for example) that Mace would wipe the floor with Revan. I realize that Mace Windu is extremely powerful, and I agree that he would beat Revan, but I feel that the fight would last at least a few minutes (whereas some people make it out to look like the fight would be over in seconds). I don't feel this way just because of what I think of Revan, I just don't think that landslide victories happen as often as people think. Let's get real, Revan has the abilties to lose respectively to Mace Windu. In the end, there's no way for Revan to win, but he'd give it all he had and would make things interesting for a bit.

 

But yeah, I also feel that Revan is being underrated more often then he is overrated. How often does a Revanite come out and say that Revan is one of the most powerful beings ever? Not often.

 

Everyone can and has been Biased at times, me myself last year was a BIG BIG Fan of Revan . I still am a fan of his but not so much as I am as of other ForceUsers like Nihilus , Obi-Wan , Anakin ..............etc .

I get sick of the Revan bashing because it is literally Directed at his fanbase and the bashers use G-Canon as a way of doing it . Well now that G-Canon is nomore , so is the grounds these people have to stand .

We can use Common sense to Debat Revan now , which is time and the ability of as generations pass so does the increase in skills and abilities.

 

Bruce Lee is arguably the most skilled fighter of his day , movies aside . He would go home to China and while filming he would be challenged to fights . Recordedly from what is known , he never lost a Challenge and often fought more than one person at a time .

Now do I believe Bruce Lee could walk into the UFC and win those fights ? Not if we go by these TimeMachine theories . It is likely Bruce could win some but those of the better fighters he would more than likely lose .

Now if Bruce Lee was in his Prime today and went down that very same path he did in his time , he would have more to learn from and perfect , and he would likely be a very Good fighter of today .

Everyone can and has been Biased at times, me myself last year was a BIG BIG Fan of Revan . I still am a fan of his but not so much as I am as of other ForceUsers like Nihilus , Obi-Wan , Anakin ..............etc .

I get sick of the Revan bashing because it is literally Directed at his fanbase and the bashers use G-Canon as a way of doing it . Well now that G-Canon is nomore , so is the grounds these people have to stand .

We can use Common sense to Debat Revan now , which is time and the ability of as generations pass so does the increase in skills and abilities.

 

Bruce Lee is arguably the most skilled fighter of his day , movies aside . He would go home to China and while filming he would be challenged to fights . Recordedly from what is known , he never lost a Challenge and often fought more than one person at a time .

Now do I believe Bruce Lee could walk into the UFC and win those fights ? Not if we go by these TimeMachine theories . It is likely Bruce could win some but those of the better fighters he would more than likely lose .

Now if Bruce Lee was in his Prime today and went down that very same path he did in his time , he would have more to learn from and perfect , and he would likely be a very Good fighter of today .

 

What's this talk about a time machine?

What's this talk about a time machine?

 

Well Time Machine Theory is what people like yourself have to use or seem to be using in the Revan vs So in SO like Mace / Sidious / Vader .............etc

 

I mean it is impossible for these fights to happen as Revan is long Dead at these points and there is no EU Writer who wrote anything on these fights .

 

So you guys go these easier path of saying if Revan was to fight (SO and SO from the Future ,Fill in blank Here) you use lack of knowing on Revan's behalf , and the known of the Character you place him with . Most of which have been way out of Revan's lifetime and way after his Death at which point we still have no clue when .

 

So in large the Debats/Threads/Post of those who careless for Revan's Character have been extremely the most Biased Opinionated Debats/Threads/Post .

 

This will be my last reply to this thread , as I do not wish to give it 50-100 pages of circle debat with those who refuse to budge and as myself will be also guilty of doing .

 

As I said before Aurbere I love most your threads and respect most your debats and if you look back I have even myself defended your Views . But this , and with this view I find myself not agreeing with 75% of your View on Revan . This is not saying I think you are Wrong in most of what you have posted on this topic or saying I agree with most you posted on this Topic .

In the end to make a Revan thread to address the very unknown of his character and to asume anything is kinda biased and opinionated .

 

We have only what Canon has stated , which is not very much on his power or skills . It has stated he is powerful ,in what we have no clue . We know he fought the mandos in the frontlines , We know he was more powerful then those who were ALIVE While he was the Sithlord and leader of his own Sith Empire . Malek challenged him and lost his Jaw in doing so . If their was anyone in the Known Space that could beat Revan they did not challenge him and we have no clue who they are or even if there were anyone who could .

We know that he was not more powerful than the Emperor , we get that through the Revan Novel and the Lore following KotoR when we learn that for a Moment the Emperor had control over Revan .

We know Revan was Strong Willed and was one the of Rare that broke the control of the Emperor but not the only one .

The list can go on but I have a Job and to be honest I need to get onto my Farming in game before work. As I said before I will not reply to any Replies or further debat of this Topic because like the other Billion Revan Threads directed at attacking Revan , they are never ending circle debats and it really comes off pointless.

 

I say to others , I would just ignore most of the Topic and go on to like whom ever you like . I would not let biased Debats tell me anything about any character I like .

In Chess we learn that there is no WHAT IFs , you either lose or you win . To say a character only one because of this or that like when Revan beat that Dark Council member with her own lightning or Malek ........etc

There is no What Ifs , a lose is a lose. Someone smarter or better won Period .

Just like Revan will always have lost to the Emperor , it is likely even if Scourage went on with the fight with Revan that the Emperor would have killed all three . Its a loss , no WHAT IFs . Period.

Edited November 20, 2012 by mefit

Revan vs Haters

After all the Haters love to hate on Revan and his Fanbase/Fanboys

 

1 Revan vs Mace Mace is a skilled out Master of Woop you with a LightSaber with evil stares that would make your Grandma pee her pants and hide behind her Bible . Being Revan is from less Lightsaber skilled times he would have to rely on Forcepowers and we have no clue what forcepowers he really knows and how well he knows them . Being Revan is likely not forgotten by the days of Mace , if Revan somehow had a timeMachine and was Darth Revan , Mace would likely go out all Pulpfiction on Revan and it wouldn't end well.

So who really wins this ?

*** Time , after all if Revan was born in the Mace's lifetime , he might well likely learnt from Mace as we do know Revan loved to learn as much as he could from as many Masters as he could .

 

2 Revan vs Malgus Both extremely aggressive fighters , with both really unknown in Power strength . We know Malgus became more powerful in False Emperor but we still really do not know the level or power of Revan . So without knowing and going on OPINION alone like everyone else , I'd have to give this fight to Malgus . We can see Malgus is really good at disarming Jedi and Sith of their lightsabers as in 2 out of 3 CG movies he disarms the Jedi he is fighting with ease . We know Malgus is not a Darth Vader as Malgus waste no time talking and just goes in for the kill .

 

Revan vs Exile This fight would never happen and we have no clue if Revan was more powerful or not over Exile . We know Exile's skills and abilities , we also know she was EXTREMELY LOYAL to Revan and followed him into everything with almost no question . I like Exile as much as Revan and I will not pretend to know or care who will win this fight . In my opinion they are likely equal in most things but Revan was always more of a natural leader . Does not mean Exile is or was unable to lead as she was a Natural leader in her own right . We can go all day with this but when it comes down to it , it will all be opinion as the fight never happened and never would have . Their story was linked as friends with her being above all and loyal to Revan to the very end and even then loyal in death.

 

Revan vs Luke Skywalker I really doublt ROTJ Luke could beat really any well known and killed Jedi or Sith , Luke was only powerful in his ability and chance to be the Son of Probably the most powerful or Could have been the most Powerful ForceUser in history Anakin Skywalker . Luke only had to be there to sway Vader from Palpatine's Control , which lead to Anakin finally being balance to the Force ............but according to EU that did not happen as many more DarkJedi came later . Maybe the end of the Sith but did not stop the Darkside from conituing past the point of ROTJ . So in the end EU Luke Fanboys Extreme would blink and Revan would be nothing more but ROTJ or to the point to ROTJ Luke , Revan wins easy just because he has learned more .

Revan vs Vader, Yoda , Obi-Wan , Darth Maul , Sidious .................................without saying time is the Winner here .

Although Sidious and Yoda would still very much wipe the floor with Revan depending on what he learned if he would have been around in the days of PT . Its to my opinion he would have been still no match for them as they are pretty polar opposites Light and Dark .

 

OK now done with the Revan vs the World ..............

 

It is too my belief that according to the Haters in this thread and in the One Hundred Qadrillion other (I HATE)Revan Threads that the Haters would say JarJar could beat Revan with JarJar being Blind Folded and Hog Tied . There is just no Reasoning with people who make it their life to hate something or someone . Being Revan is still so unknown and little light has been shed on his abilities or skills , its really all Opinion and G-Canon is no more so the lame Lucas said this and that is very much a Debat that has no floor to stand on anymore .

 

So please make a Billion more threads on Revan and how he was just a person who would lose to everyone and everything blah Blah BLAH , we get it .

 

Wow - you really shouldn't have said all that. Lots of speculation here. I hope you're being sarcastic because some of those versus seem to be a little (not a little) off. I'm not even saying this in defence of Revan 'cause there are other characters here who you didn't represent well.

 

I hope your quote doesn't turn into another debate pointless debate.

Cant we all just agree Revan is awesome and leave it at that?

Cant we all just agree Revan is awesome and leave it at that?

 

I think many of us can agree on that. I think this debate has fallen into how awesome he really is. Which just seems pointless now as we all have our views of him.

Because Aurbere is an absolute Revan hater who can't face (or doesn't care about) the facts or what is not written down by someone (for example lightsaber form mastery...) and no matter what you are going to say he won't accept it at any rate - so u can understand what I want to say here - That's why I'M not going to argue here... it's useless. But I'm really happy because there is Revan and even the Revan haters can't abandon him so he really is A NAME in the Star Wars univers who u can't avoid ... and no matter who u are (Revan hater or fan) u will speak about him no matter what u say and that's why he is going to live a long life:D

Because Aurbere is an absolute Revan hater who can't face (or doesn't care about) the facts or what is not written down by someone (for example lightsaber form mastery...)

 

Eh?..If theres no evidence suggesting that Revan was a master of all lightsaber forms, then how is it a fact? You need evidence to support facts do you not?

Edited November 20, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

Eh?..If theres no evidence suggesting that Revan was a master of all lightsaber forms, then how is it a fact? You need evidence to support facts do you not?

 

Good thing you got to it first. I had to re-read that post a couple times.

 

As to Revan mastering any Lightsaber forms. Because there is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, we can only assume that he did not. We know that we was skilled with a lightsaber, but we can't say that he mastered any of the forms.

Eh?..If theres no evidence suggesting that Revan was a master of all lightsaber forms, then how is it a fact? You need evidence to support facts do you not?

Read the rest too (Aurebere too)... I never said anything about Revan lightsaber forms (and as I see the moment u read that someone says "this isn't written down" you think they talk about the opposite of your oppinion) and as I said before I didn't write this so u can argue about if he increased the lightsaber forms to the mastery level or not, it's just an example that I put it here but I can put something else there if u want to.

Edited November 20, 2012 by pbajnokl

Read the rest too (Aurebere too)... I never said anything about Revan lightsaber forms (and as I see the moment u read that someone says "this isn't written down" you think they talk about the opposite of your oppinion) and as I said before I didn't write this so u can argue about if he increased the lightsaber forms to the mastery level or not, it's just an example that I put it here but I can put something else there if u want to.

 

Was just mainly taking your example really, I know you didn't say anything about it.

Someone needs to ask the writers about this. But I have a feeling they'd side with the Revan is uber-powerful side. And to be honest I'd tempted to agree. Everything he has done seems to suggest he is extremely powerful in the Force (does it not). I mean, he's only been defeated by the Emperor and four of the most powerful Imperials of the OR era. That's basically all we have to go on.

Good thing you got to it first. I had to re-read that post a couple times.

 

As to Revan mastering any Lightsaber forms. Because there is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim, we can only assume that he did not. We know that we was skilled with a lightsaber, but we can't say that he mastered any of the forms.

 

Well your sorta right.

- We know he was one of the best lightsaber duelists (arguably the best) of his time (Rayla - you know what I mean by that).

 

With that in mind, it's very likely that he did master a lightsaber form (or perhaps nearly mastered a form). Although it never says anywhere (that I'm aware of) that Revan did master a form. Note: I could name several Jedi of his time that did master lightsaber forms - this means that he LIKELY mastered a form.

 

In the end we can't assume he did or didn't master a lightsaber form - we simply need to be open-minded to either possibility. However I'd like to point out that just because (if) he didn't master a form doesn't make him a slouch. If he didn't master a form, then he WAS the next best thing to a master at lightsaber combat.

Well your sorta right.

- We know he was one of the best lightsaber duelists (arguably the best) of his time (Rayla - you know what I mean by that).

 

With that in mind, it's very likely that he did master a lightsaber form (or perhaps nearly mastered a form). Although it never says anywhere (that I'm aware of) that Revan did master a form. Note: I could name several Jedi of his time that did master lightsaber forms - this means that he LIKELY mastered a form.

 

In the end we can't assume he did or didn't master a lightsaber form - we simply need to be open-minded to either possibility. However I'd like to point out that just because (if) he didn't master a form doesn't make him a slouch. If he didn't master a form, then he WAS the next best thing to a master at lightsaber combat.

 

I think we can all agree that Revan was a skilled duelist and powerful in the Force. It is possible that he mastered a lightsaber form, but I believe that he used multiple different forms and became a skilled user of those forms. What forms he did use and his skill in them, I do not know.

 

For now, we can only say that he was a skilled duelist and powerful in the Force.

Even confirmed in TOR. Fighting Revan he has a passive named 'force in balance.' When you start kicking his butt, it is replaced by another passive 'power of the dark side' as he embraces it in his desperation.

Sigh..... these guys are obviously never going to stop arguing. I think both sides have said their points more than enough. I think it is time to move on.

Even confirmed in TOR. Fighting Revan he has a passive named 'force in balance.' When you start kicking his butt, it is replaced by another passive 'power of the dark side' as he embraces it in his desperation.

 

I actually haven't done that fight yet. Could someone explan what happens when he "embraces the darkside in desperation?" That seems kinda like stupid writing to me. Also, if this is true, doesn't this just mean that he starts using darksided powers like lightning?

I actually haven't done that fight yet. Could someone explan what happens when he "embraces the darkside in desperation?" That seems kinda like stupid writing to me. Also, if this is true, doesn't this just mean that he starts using darksided powers like lightning?

 

During the fight, Revan starts off as a Jedi (or whatever you may call him, rogue Jedi would be good), but as the battle drags on, he falls to the Dark Side. Forgoing Jedi techniques and using the power of the Dark Side.

 

Oh and I don't think buffs are canon. If they are, then the Trooper and Bounty Hunter have more endurance than the other characters.

During the fight, Revan starts off as a Jedi (or whatever you may call him, rogue Jedi would be good), but as the battle drags on, he falls to the Dark Side. Forgoing Jedi techniques and using the power of the Dark Side.

 

Oh and I don't think buffs are canon. If they are, then the Trooper and Bounty Hunter have more endurance than the other characters.

 

What is it about the scene that indicates he turned to the darkside?

 

BTW This wouldn't contradict the G-canon 'cause Revan wouldn't be using both sides of the force at the SAME TME. Am I right?

What is it about the scene that indicates he turned to the darkside?

 

BTW This wouldn't contradict the G-canon 'cause Revan wouldn't be using both sides of the force at the SAME TME. Am I right?

 

Force Lightning, Force Storm. I do believe he even goes a bit crazy with what he says. I'm actually going to try to get in the FP next time I'm on so I'll have more info surrounding that fight.

 

No, Revan's fall to the Dark Side does not contradict G-canon. The issue that contradicts G-canon is the wording in the Revan novel during the Emperor fight. I assume Leland Chee read and cleared the novel, so he must have known that it was a moment of Oneness as well.

 

But that's a different manner. Revan fell to the Dark Side during the Foundry battle, but I think he came back to the Light upon defeat.

I don't *THINK*(lul) he actually fell to the Dark Side, he just comes very close with his outburst of Dark powers and his switch in personality, when he 'dies', I think he controls his passion and finds clarity. Edited November 20, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

Force Lightning, Force Storm. I do believe he even goes a bit crazy with what he says. I'm actually going to try to get in the FP next time I'm on so I'll have more info surrounding that fight.

 

No, Revan's fall to the Dark Side does not contradict G-canon. The issue that contradicts G-canon is the wording in the Revan novel during the Emperor fight. I assume Leland Chee read and cleared the novel, so he must have known that it was a moment of Oneness as well.

 

But that's a different manner. Revan fell to the Dark Side during the Foundry battle, but I think he came back to the Light upon defeat.

 

I wouldn't say he fell to the darkside (although I could be wrong). People don't turn just like that. I think it is more realistic to say that he temporarily relied on darkside techniques.

 

But if we're really gonna get into this then we ought to start a new thread concerning exactly what happened in the foundry battle. Regardless, it seems that the writers did a poor job here.