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Expansion size


IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
05.12.2016 , 02:49 PM | #1
I've got a serious question for the people who are complaining that KotFE is "smaller/shorter" than previous expansions (particularly Makeb and SoR). How do you figure that? Other than dribbling it out over a year instead of dropping it all at once; I'm not seeing how it is any "smaller" than the other two major story expansions. Short of spacebarring and stealthing, each chapter is ~1 hour of playtime; not inclusive of the alliance grind elements (alerts and HSF). That's going to end up being ~16 hours of core storyline play, which stacks up at least as well as my estimate of the solo mode of SoR from the Forged Alliance flashpoints to the end of Ziost; and probably longer than Makeb (it's been a while since I've run the storyline of Makeb.

As for repeatable content; enough people didn't do Makeb's staged weeklies that they converted them to standard dailies; and the HSF are at least as interesting as the umpteenth run of Yavin, Oricon, CZ-198, Black Hole, or Section X; or even Belsavis or Ilum's dailies. Plus the heroic grind for alliances - it's not new content, but, seriously, how many people ran most heroics anything close to weekly prior. (I would occasionally grind Trouble In Deed back when 3 basic comms was a lot, but nothing else).

Post-Ilum repeatables were not really faction-specific (you have slightly different skins on effectively same content), and from Makeb onwards, even that pretense went away.

Show me the beef here, folks
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
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Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
05.12.2016 , 02:53 PM | #2
Heh... I hope you put on your fireproof gear before stepping into this volcano.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
05.12.2016 , 02:57 PM | #3
I'm pretty sure the complaint is more it's smaller in how many different content 'types' it puts out. Other expansions came with a new PvP map and FP's/Ops (In SOR's case, it came with both) upon release (Thought feel free to correct me if, like KOFTE, these came out AFTER the X-pack). Kofte came with just the main story, some side quests, no new planets (As in, the size of Rishi or Yavin) or areas that are really THAT big. So while KOFTE does have a lot of content, it's not as... spread out as people would like. I think?
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Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
05.12.2016 , 03:07 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
I'm pretty sure the complaint is more it's smaller in how many different content 'types' it puts out. Other expansions came with a new PvP map and FP's/Ops (In SOR's case, it came with both) upon release (Thought feel free to correct me if, like KOFTE, these came out AFTER the X-pack). Kofte came with just the main story, some side quests, no new planets (As in, the size of Rishi or Yavin) or areas that are really THAT big. So while KOFTE does have a lot of content, it's not as... spread out as people would like. I think?
Thing is.. they do a smaller expac roughly every year, for roughly one third the cost of a classic MMO expac (such as a WoW expac which typically comes out on three year intervals). The difference being, SWTOR tends to focus heavily on a segment of content in any expac, rather then working on all facets for an expac. They sort of look like they are on a three year plan to push new content across all facets of play, but it takes three yearly expacs to do it.

So the net content over time is probably about the same. You can have 3 expacs, over 3 years, for roughly the same cost as the old school approach of a large expac every 3 years. But some veteran MMO players seem to get major gas pains over this approach, as they want it all in one large expac. But they will just consume it and be back complaining in 4-6 months.. and then have to wait more then 2 years for another expac.

Which approach is better? The answer will vary by player. There is no pleasing a diverse player base... so no matter what they do, people are going to dish the hate on them on behalf of which ever special interest group feels ignored.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
05.12.2016 , 03:14 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
I'm pretty sure the complaint is more it's smaller in how many different content 'types' it puts out. Other expansions came with a new PvP map and FP's/Ops (In SOR's case, it came with both) upon release. (Thought feel free to correct me if, like KOFTE, these came out AFTER the X-pack).
Release cadence - we just got a new PvP game type and map, they just didn't launch with KotFE. There is an admitted lack of Ops, but the effort that would have built an Op or two (10 mechanics bosses; you could populate 3 Ops with that) went into TEC instead. For better or for worse. It's not an Op; it's something different entirely. And as I keep saying, a new op that is a successor to Rav/ToS would be inaccessible to the majority of the player base. Certainly to anyone who used a Start-at-60 token. If TEC can serve as an Ops boot camp, in place of the old fp->ops chain->Rav/ToS, then a successor to those two is possible. I think they've got slightly different plans; but something along the lines of TEC being an Ops boot camp is part of it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
(Thought feel free to correct me if, like KOFTE, these came out AFTER the X-pack). Kofte came with just the main story, some side quests, no new planets (As in, the size of Rishi or Yavin) or areas that are really THAT big. So while KOFTE does have a lot of content, it's not as... spread out as people would like. I think?
That goes back to our previous discussion about "side/filler content." You're not forced to travel to open world or engage the mobs therein; and there are less chapters (and they're longer, and can't be sidelined) than there were missions in previous expacs. Instead of coming up with new planets, they recycled existing ones. I personally think they should have set more content, including chapter content, on existing iconic planets. It always seemed a shame that they "used up" planets as you went along the storyline, and level sync is a tool that would allow them to set relevant content in amongst the existing locales. And you wouldn't have the oddity of "the outlander is always sneaking back onto Zakuul." It's easy enough to handwave, but the writers haven't bothered to do so.
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
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Knorlac's Avatar


Knorlac
05.12.2016 , 03:18 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
I'm pretty sure the complaint is more it's smaller in how many different content 'types' it puts out. Other expansions came with a new PvP map and FP's/Ops (In SOR's case, it came with both) upon release (Thought feel free to correct me if, like KOFTE, these came out AFTER the X-pack). Kofte came with just the main story, some side quests, no new planets (As in, the size of Rishi or Yavin) or areas that are really THAT big. So while KOFTE does have a lot of content, it's not as... spread out as people would like. I think?
This would be correct if you asked me.

Of course it is all a matter of taste, but there is just no replayability IMO. I really have to force myself to go through it with my chars as it's so very linear and tedious. I already know by heart where and when Skytrooper No.546 will spawn...

Then there are the side activities like SFs, alerts and alliance rep. They all feel like incredible, legacy unfriendly grinds to me. It was Ok on my main, but I already know that I'll never do another SF again or get all of the companions on my 24 chars. EC was quite nice and I'll do it once per class, but after that there is just no reason as the rewards don't interest me.

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
05.12.2016 , 03:20 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Knorlac View Post

Then there are the side activities like SFs, alerts and alliance rep. They all feel like incredible, legacy unfriendly grinds to me. It was Ok on my main, but I already know that I'll never do another SF again or get all of the companions on my 24 chars. EC was quite nice and I'll do it once per class, but after that there is just no reason as the rewards don't interest me.
For the alliance rep stuff, I don't think it's legacy unfriendly unless they reveal that it actually matters more then just getting an achievement and that there's a reason to do it on other characters. Aside from the bonus you get in the Star Fortress.
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You're a white knight if you like Bioware, you're a whiner if you hate them, you're a scummy fence sitter if you're in the middle.
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IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
05.12.2016 , 03:25 PM | #8
The lack of legacy friendliness on the Alliance grind is a strike against. OTOH, that's balanced against the shortness of each character's grind. It hurts the big legacies, helps the smaller ones.

Also, the alliance crates are legacy bound, shortcircuiting some of the legacy grind for later characters.
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
that doesn't mean I want anyone else punished or shunned...we ALL matter.
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Knorlac's Avatar


Knorlac
05.12.2016 , 03:27 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Thing is.. they do a smaller expac roughly every year, for roughly one third the cost of a classic MMO expac (such as a WoW expac which typically comes out on three year intervals). The difference being, SWTOR tends to focus heavily on a segment of content in any expac, rather then working on all facets for an expac. They sort of look like they are on a three year plan to push new content across all facets of play, but it takes three yearly expacs to do it.

So the net content over time is probably about the same. You can have 3 expacs, over 3 years, for roughly the same cost as the old school approach of a large expac every 3 years. But some veteran MMO players seem to get major gas pains over this approach, as they want it all in one large expac. But they will just consume it and be back complaining in 4-6 months.. and then have to wait more then 2 years for another expac.

Which approach is better? The answer will vary by player. There is no pleasing a diverse player base... so no matter what they do, people are going to dish the hate on them on behalf of which ever special interest group feels ignored.
True enough. The main reasons I'd prefer traditional expansions are scope and replayability.
With scope I mean creating a huge new experience complete with acompanying group content, minigames, new features etc. Also I'd prefer to get new expansive areas to quest in as opposed to the small maps of KotFE.

As for replayability, with a traditional expansion I'd expect there to be a storyline + sidequests for each faction, so I can alternate playthroughs. So when I'm finished with the first two chars, it will still feel somewhat fresh by the time I start the third.
With KotFE, when I start the newest chapter on the third alt, I still know exactly what will happen at any given point which makes the whole thing extremely boring IMO.

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
05.12.2016 , 03:33 PM | #10
I like how they bring out something new every month right now. It's not just been a chapter but also things like QoL updates, new warzones and such. That by itself is a good thing.

The tough thing is that a lot of resources went into redesigning the game as it was. A lot of work was not put into new content but into revamping the game, overhauling it if you prefer.

Now the issue is of course timing. The decision was made at a time that people were already waiting for new endgame content, operations. PvP is still something that could have a lot more going for it also. These areas are currently lacking sorely in newness. A lot of people who have been playing for a while are getting a bit bored or quit out of boredom and also players that haven't been around that long will be seeing some wear as well.

I do agree the game needed the overhaul but it has been a long time for group content. Star Forge was fun for a bit and building your alliance as a character rather than legacy also lost their shine quickly. The story is pretty cool, but it is one size fits all and I dread the idea of getting tech classes through there. The other thing is that I only run two characters through the story currently (1 imp, 1 rep) and that's it. I do not wish to bring others through them because I don't know where the story is going yet and that doesn't work for me. So there the replay value is currently also low.

So all in all I don't have a problem with what we got, except that missed opportunity with alliances, but there are a number of things we didn't get and those are clearly noticeable.
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