I know this has been beaten to death, but the more you read about it, the more confused you get because no one is able to give a straight answer.

Some say go power because...... while others say, no, go Mastery now because.....

So which one is better ? I Play a fury Marauder level 70 on TRE and I made some tests. I ran with 14 power augments and then I ran with 14 mastery augments.

I really cannot tell which one is better. While going fully power augmented, I noticed that I am better 1v1 because my critical hits were out of control, but overall at the end of the match my DPS numbers weren't so...good. I never hit 2 mil with matery augments.

While playing power I noticed that hitting 2 million is quite easyi.

While playing mastery I felt that I lacking in burst ? I had like 8770 mastery and 4100 power. So I need help with this.

Which one do you think it's the way to go in 5.0.

Some ranked players said that the time of power augments is over in 5.0 and that mastery is the new stat which will make good damage.

thoughts ?

Personally, DPS is more about uptime, positioning, and getting in several dozens of perfect rotations than the makeup of one's gear stats.

If the enemy focus you and interrupt your channels, LoS you, kill you, debuff you, and don't group up for your AoEs your overall DPS will be a lot lower. - If you get a 'perfect' game where you're left alone to freecast on a big bunch of enemy players who don't shut you down, let us know.

You'll only really tell on long parses on dummies- but the downside is that dummies don't fight back or run away. You could try DPS-ing with a friend in a duel, so long as they mirror your DPS with heals and check the parses, but even then it doesn't reflect the chaos of a PVP match.

I know this has been beaten to death, but the more you read about it, the more confused you get because no one is able to give a straight answer.

 

Some say go power because...... while others say, no, go Mastery now because.....

 

 

So which one is better ? I Play a fury Marauder level 70 on TRE and I made some tests. I ran with 14 power augments and then I ran with 14 mastery augments.

 

I really cannot tell which one is better. While going fully power augmented, I noticed that I am better 1v1 because my critical hits were out of control, but overall at the end of the match my DPS numbers weren't so...good. I never hit 2 mil with matery augments.

 

While playing power I noticed that hitting 2 million is quite easyi.

 

While playing mastery I felt that I lacking in burst ? I had like 8770 mastery and 4100 power. So I need help with this.

 

Which one do you think it's the way to go in 5.0.

 

Some ranked players said that the time of power augments is over in 5.0 and that mastery is the new stat which will make good damage.

 

thoughts ?

When it comes to DPS Mastery and Power both provide almost the same amount of DPS. Mastery provides (according to Bant) slightly more sustain; by slight i mean like .05%. If that is something you care about, go Mastery.

The other argument for running one verse another is the idea of how important Crit is in PvP. A good timed Crit can kill players, that's why running Mastery might be more beneficial than stacking raw damage of Power because Mastery also gives you Crit rating as well as damage.

I would personally recommend running Mastery for it's slight benefits but overall the difference is so small that it kinda doesn't matter unless you're a tryhard.

neither. most of your augments should be crit in order to get it above 40% with the rest alacrity and maybe a couple power or mastery. the difference between power and mastery is so small, you would need a huge sample size to tell any difference in game. crit is where your burst comes from, so the higher you can push it the better. however, once you get above ~45%, the diminishing returns become harsh enough that other stats become more effective compared to another point of crit.

honestly, though, it just doesn't matter that much. if you want to push it to the absolute max, you can drop accuracy out and fine tune the alacrity to dial it in perfectly, but you are still only going to see a very small improvement vs. someone in bone stock gear and whatever augs were cheapest. the key to doing well in wz is knowing your class and rotation and positioning yourself correctly. beyond that, having a good knowledge of other classes defensive cooldowns so you don't waste your burst at the wrong time is very helpful.

neither. most of your augments should be crit in order to get it above 40% with the rest alacrity and maybe a couple power or mastery. the difference between power and mastery is so small, you would need a huge sample size to tell any difference in game. crit is where your burst comes from, so the higher you can push it the better. however, once you get above ~45%, the diminishing returns become harsh enough that other stats become more effective compared to another point of crit.

 

honestly, though, it just doesn't matter that much. if you want to push it to the absolute max, you can drop accuracy out and fine tune the alacrity to dial it in perfectly, but you are still only going to see a very small improvement vs. someone in bone stock gear and whatever augs were cheapest. the key to doing well in wz is knowing your class and rotation and positioning yourself correctly. beyond that, having a good knowledge of other classes defensive cooldowns so you don't waste your burst at the wrong time is very helpful.

I think stacking Alacrity non a non-healer is probably one of the worst things you can do in PvP. Exceptions to this is classes such as Carnage Mara which needs it for it's burst window. Alacrity in general when it comes to DPS is one of the confusing stats to translate into PvP because of it's DPS impact relies on up-time (doing damage in the gained GCD strings you set up). In PvE optimized stats for example, you see a lot of the DPS classes running high Alacrity but that is because their up-time on their abilities is close to 100% (they use all their gained GCD's effectively which impacts their DPS output). In PvP you will never get 100% (maybe 60% on a good day) up-time on your damaging abilities so therefore effectiveness of Alacrity as a means to up your sustain is pretty much meh. You might as well stack into raw damage at that point. Bad ability "up-time" can be caused by things such as sticking to melee range, push-backs, interrupts, target LoSing or being CC all stack up to reducing how much potential DPS you can gain from the stat. I would argue for DPS to only have enough Alacrity to smooth out your rotation (or stack it for situations such as Carnage Ferocity windows). A more reliable source for DPS is stacking Mastery because according to people like Bant it is the next large increase to your DPS over Alacrity.

Food for thought.

So which one is better ? I Play a fury Marauder level 70 on TRE and I made some tests. I ran with 14 power augments and then I ran with 14 mastery augments.

Neither of those is the correct answer, IMO. You don't want full power or full mastery. As a Fury Mara, you'll want some accuracy (around 105%, possibly more), some crit (I go with around 40-41%), some alacrity (I go with around 9-10%). The Mastery / Power augs are filler after you get to the aforementioned stats. Of course I'm sitting at mostly 242, some 236 - everything will go up as you get 248.

Alacrity will improve your sustained dps if you can handle higher APM. In situations where you are constantly swapping targets, getting out of melee range, are CC'd, alacrity will do more harm than good. So it's definitely situational. The ~10% number is what seems to work well for me. As I get more 248, I may push that even higher. Time will tell.

My opinions have changed slowly over time. I used to advocate zero alacrity and zero accuracy, but that was back in 4.x with lower stat budgets. I don't think the corner on the curve of Crit diminishing returns has changed much (if at all) since then, so it can make sense to put more points elsewhere.

I think stacking Alacrity non a non-healer is probably one of the worst things you can do in PvP. Exceptions to this is classes such as Carnage Mara which needs it for it's burst window. Alacrity in general when it comes to DPS is one of the confusing stats to translate into PvP because of it's DPS impact relies on up-time (doing damage in the gained GCD strings you set up). In PvE optimized stats for example, you see a lot of the DPS classes running high Alacrity but that is because their up-time on their abilities is close to 100% (they use all their gained GCD's effectively which impacts their DPS output). In PvP you will never get 100% (maybe 60% on a good day) up-time on your damaging abilities so therefore effectiveness of Alacrity as a means to up your sustain is pretty much meh. You might as well stack into raw damage at that point. Bad ability "up-time" can be caused by things such as sticking to melee range, push-backs, interrupts, target LoSing or being CC all stack up to reducing how much potential DPS you can gain from the stat. I would argue for DPS to only have enough Alacrity to smooth out your rotation (or stack it for situations such as Carnage Ferocity windows). A more reliable source for DPS is stacking Mastery because according to people like Bant it is the next large increase to your DPS over Alacrity.

 

Food for thought.

i would have to disagree. consider that with 10% alacrity, every 15 seconds is an extra global. while i would agree that the effects are more apparent in a long duration pve fight, even a 1v1 duel is longer than 15 seconds and in a close fight even one more attack can make the difference between win or lose. where do you see bant say that mastery is more valuable than alacrity? at what value? bant was my guildie and raid leader for a long time and i remember him being in love with alacrity above all, so i would be interested in seeing if he said differently on the forums, but to be fair, he did not do any pvp, only pve.

i would have to disagree. consider that with 10% alacrity, every 15 seconds is an extra global. while i would agree that the effects are more apparent in a long duration pve fight, even a 1v1 duel is longer than 15 seconds and in a close fight even one more attack can make the difference between win or lose. where do you see bant say that mastery is more valuable than alacrity? at what value? bant was my guildie and raid leader for a long time and i remember him being in love with alacrity above all, so i would be interested in seeing if he said differently on the forums, but to be fair, he did not do any pvp, only pve.

After testing high alac vs high bonus damage (via mastery) the DPS output was virtually identical. Clever_Trevor, the person who took over Bant's work suggested a high alac build to me and it works pretty well. As always I'd recommend you try it out before regurgitating AlAc iS a DeAd StAt.

Trevor was meant to be working on a more thorough breakdown for me with the combat logs I sent him but iirc he said he was busy with IRL for a while so I'm still waiting for the final breakdown.

i would have to disagree. consider that with 10% alacrity, every 15 seconds is an extra global. while i would agree that the effects are more apparent in a long duration pve fight, even a 1v1 duel is longer than 15 seconds and in a close fight even one more attack can make the difference between win or lose. where do you see bant say that mastery is more valuable than alacrity? at what value? bant was my guildie and raid leader for a long time and i remember him being in love with alacrity above all, so i would be interested in seeing if he said differently on the forums, but to be fair, he did not do any pvp, only pve.

The only stat that doesn't translate well into PvP from PvE is Alacrity because of how uniquely it works. What is the likely-hood that you are going to string 7 GCDs together to actually make a new GCD in PvP? With all the CC, roots, stuns, push-backs, teleports, LoS and sticking to melee range, the likely-hood that you are even using Alacrity to it's full effect to be BETTER than Mastery in my opinion is probably poor.

I didn't say Alacrity is bad, I just personally don't feel it's that great for DPS upkeep in PvP.

Clever_Trevor, the person who took over Bant's work .

From my understanding the person "who took over Bant's work", is Multicam aka vicodin. The guy who uses Bant's program to pump out PvE numbers and post them on forums. lol

I didn't say Alacrity is bad, I just personally don't feel it's that great for DPS upkeep in PvP.

I think stacking Alacrity non a non-healer is probably one of the worst things you can do in PvP.

I mean, kinda looks like you're saying it's bad.

As always, I recommend trying out various builds for yourself. Augments aren't expensive and you can do a lot of tinkering just through those.

I mean, kinda looks like you're saying it's bad.

 

As always, I recommend trying out various builds for yourself. Augments aren't expensive and you can do a lot of tinkering just through those.

You nit-pick my post picking out two sentences and don't even read my argument for why it's not effective as players might think. You are free to build yourself like the PvEr's do but pretending that Alacrity has the same DPS output in PvP as it does in PvE is questionable at best if you have an understanding how Alacrity functions. In my opinion building yourself in PvP like you are going to parse on a dummy in a reg match with no context with how diversity environment like PvP is absurd.

No one is going around waving the "alacrity is dead' flag. Alacrity continues to be the second best DPS gain in PvP and PvE in the most optimal setting but you can NOT expect get the most optimal setting in PvP. That is why I build my argument about running less Alacrity and more Mastery to make up for the ineffectiveness of Alacrity when being CC chained/rooted/stunned/LoSed etc.

After testing high alac vs high bonus damage (via mastery) the DPS output was virtually identical. Clever_Trevor, the person who took over Bant's work suggested a high alac build to me and it works pretty well. As always I'd recommend you try it out before regurgitating AlAc iS a DeAd StAt.

 

Trevor was meant to be working on a more thorough breakdown for me with the combat logs I sent him but iirc he said he was busy with IRL for a while so I'm still waiting for the final breakdown.

ummm. i think you got it backwards. i was the one in favor of using alacrity. "high" is a relative term, but 10-12% is easily obtainable with the default piece, one implant and a couple of augs. i'm not sure how well it scales beyond that. the second part of my first post specifically pointed out that for the most part, worrying about it is pointless, since the differences are very small.

The only stat that doesn't translate well into PvP from PvE is Alacrity because of how uniquely it works. What is the likely-hood that you are going to string 7 GCDs together to actually make a new GCD in PvP? With all the CC, roots, stuns, push-backs, teleports, LoS and sticking to melee range, the likely-hood that you are even using Alacrity to it's full effect to be BETTER than Mastery in my opinion is probably poor.

 

I didn't say Alacrity is bad, I just personally don't feel it's that great for DPS upkeep in PvP.

i string 7 globals together without getting stunned/interrupted more often than not. probably has a lot to do with i play ranged classes and only rarely melee, but there it is. the more relevant issue is that we have so much mastery and power already, just about anything else becomes more effective.

I am playing with 8440 masteery, 4140 power and 2000 crit. I don't know but I am criting so much that I kinda win a lot of duels 1vs1 in warzones. Of course in ranked it's a different matter because people there are better defenders but in regs they just melt away. or it seems that way.

Crits are high and very frequent.

And in long fights you need alacrity because the longer it takes the slower your abilies will regen and at some point you gonna find yourelf with everythinkin CD which is annoying and u have to use basic attack.

ummm. i think you got it backwards. i was the one in favor of using alacrity. "high" is a relative term, but 10-12% is easily obtainable with the default piece, one implant and a couple of augs. i'm not sure how well it scales beyond that.

 

 

 

i string 7 globals together without getting stunned/interrupted more often than not. probably has a lot to do with i play ranged classes and only rarely melee, but there it is. the more relevant issue is that we have so much mastery and power already, just about anything else becomes more effective.

I agree it's more beneficial for range because they don't have to deal with the constant melee range issue. According to Multicam, the best thing you can do for a DPS increase is to get more stats/gear. Once your min/maxed the amount of dps you can gain from rearranging your gear is like 2.5%~ lol. For try-hards it's important but in the end building correctly after you have 248 will make little difference. I personality just don't want to put all my eggs in the Alacrity basket and hope I don't get CC chained or rooted where I can't do any DPS. Better to run less and have more confidence in raw damage to get the 2.5% more DPS that I want.

You nit-pick my post picking out two sentences and don't even read my argument for why it's not effective as players might think. .

It's not nit picking, you literally say it's one of the worst things you can do then you 180 noscope on it.

I understand how alacrity works, I was running a roughly 5% alac build before the 1800 rating was suggested to me and the only reason I tried the 1800 build was that I thought it was so stupid I could just easily show that person they were wrong with some trial games.

My damage went up, by a noticeable amount so I stuck with it. The parses sent over were mainly from arena games rather than regs but the TLDR conclusion I came to was they both perform relatively similarly and really personal preference is the main factor when deciding.

The highest performing dps Operative in our guild is running about 16% alacrity at the moment and there are more running 11% plus while getting positive outcomes. I'd recommend giving it a try, I mean, not on a spreadsheet.

:sigh:

It's not nit picking, you literally say it's one of the worst things you can do then you 180 noscope on it.

 

I understand how alacrity works, I was running a roughly 5% alac build before the 1800 rating was suggested to me and the only reason I tried the 1800 build was that I thought it was so stupid I could just easily show that person they were wrong with some trial games.

 

My damage went up, by a noticeable amount so I stuck with it. The parses sent over were mainly from arena games rather than regs but the TLDR conclusion I came to was they both perform relatively similarly and really personal preference is the main factor when deciding.

 

The highest performing dps Operative in our guild is running about 16% alacrity at the moment and there are more running 11% plus while getting positive outcomes. I'd recommend giving it a try, I mean, not on a spreadsheet.

 

:sigh:

I tested alacrity on some classes: hatred sin, decep sin, anni mara, carnage mara, fury mara. These are the only classes i play in this game.

My experience is that 1500 alac or more is mandatory for DoT specs. As a fury mara or decep sin, I didn't really like it. But I agree, high alacrity will serve you well and operative is one of the classes that benefit a lot from it.

What I want to say is that in my point of view the class and spec your playing will determine the amount of alacrity you will need for optimal performance.

My experience is that 1500 alac or more is mandatory for DoT specs.

I don't think I've ever tried that, but I want to. Anni / Watchman should be fun. The only downside to getting used to that much alac is that if you ever go lower, everything just feels so slow.

You really need to stop looking at Alacrity in the larger picture, because that really only works for PvE.

In PvP, going for Alacrity means 2 things;

Lower Cooldowns/Higher Cooldown Frequency (which includes CC).

Increased outgoing ability rate.

The first provides you with the means to take more control over your fights.

As well as offensive capacities being more readily available.

The second is really just the increased speed at which you cast abilities. They do less damage but they go out faster.

Where you first had to wait untill 1.5 seconds before you could cast your second ability, you now do that at 1.3 seconds instead. This can make all the difference when fights are really tight. You really don't do less damage with Alacrity builds, you just make your burst window much more compact.

Down the line, yes.. Power/Mastery/whatever builds would go higher into the hard numbers.

But that is only after the entire sequence is done for both builds.

However when Alacrity is long done bursting, Mastery/Power still has to go through a global.

Compare it like a dragrace between a Car and a Bike if you will. Mastery is the Car. Alacrity is the Bike.

The Bike will win in the short run, the Car will catch up and eventually surpass but only after the Bike has already ridden it's race. You can choose to pick the Car for it's top speed, but I'm more of a surgical player so I prefer the agility and acceleration of a Bike.

TL;DR

It is entirely feasible to roll Alacrity into DPS builds in PvP. As a matter of fact, I HIGHLY recommend it.

But going for Alacrity is more demanding of the player. It requires you to make good use of the time it gives you.

If you spend time thinking what you want to do while you can already use another ability, then Alacrity speeding the whole thing up even more won't do you any good.

It's not nit picking, you literally say it's one of the worst things you can do then you 180 noscope on it.

 

 

My damage went up, by a noticeable amount so I stuck with it. The parses sent over were mainly from arena games rather than regs but the TLDR conclusion I came to was they both perform relatively similarly and really personal preference is the main factor when deciding.

 

 

:sigh:

So your evidence of how a stat works in pvp is a parse in an arena? To get an accurate parse to test out differences in stats you have to parse at least for 40 mins to remove all the RNG doing the same exact rotation in the SAME EXACT environment as your other test. That's why stat tests in PvP are worthless because it's all RNG and not long enough to actually tell you the accurate conclusion.

Regardless what you are testing is a 5%~ difference in DPS which would literally be impossible to judge from a 2-4 min match lol.

If you know how Alacrity works then you should know you wont have perfect damage uptime with it because you wont be able to have 100% uptime. That means the effectiveness of the stat decreases. The more alacrity you run the MORE it impacts your DPS over time because that is how Alacrity works.

That's why the best thing to do to understand how the stats work in PvP is go from the ground up from what you know. Bant/Mutlicam did all the work for us. They can tell you straight up which stats are good and bad already. The math is here. Use PvE parses and gearing set ups. Bant did over 8000 tests of his stats to make sure he comes out with the least RNG. Then take that information and teak it for a PvP environment with the understanding of the limitations of each stat and what you want to accomplish in PvP.

So, just to clarify for the less knowledgeable (i.e., me):

1. While the difference may be minimal, stacking mastery offers more benefits than stacking power.

2. While there is a range of opinions on the topic as far as in-game performance, stacking alacrity potentially offers more bang for your buck than stacking mastery, and the threshold for diminishing returns appears to be quite high.

Do I have that right?

So, just to clarify for the less knowledgeable (i.e., me):

 

1. While the difference may be minimal, stacking mastery offers more benefits than stacking power.

 

2. While there is a range of opinions on the topic as far as in-game performance, stacking alacrity potentially offers more bang for your buck than stacking mastery, and the threshold for diminishing returns appears to be quite high.

 

Do I have that right?

You've got it. One additional point: While stacking alacrity potentially offers more bang for your buck, unless you are really maximizing every chance to use that alacrity (not CCd/switching targets quickly, less/no downtime) it's possible that Mastery might fair better. If not, it's at least possible that you would do better with (after 45% crit) a balance of alacrity and mastery. Test this ratio until you find a comfort zone and do not rely heavily on the results of single performances.

You've got it. One additional point: While stacking alacrity potentially offers more bang for your buck, unless you are really maximizing every chance to use that alacrity (not CCd/switching targets quickly, less/no downtime) it's possible that Mastery might fair better. If not, it's at least possible that you would do better with (after 45% crit) a balance of alacrity and mastery. Test this ratio until you find a comfort zone and do not rely heavily on the results of single performances.

Thank you, very much.