Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

PTS conquest changes are disasterous

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
PTS conquest changes are disasterous

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
10.11.2019 , 09:17 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ShinLunaAzure View Post
Your definition of active is pretty off-base if one player earning over 230k is what you'd consider normal in the current system. We've certainly got a handful of folks that can pull that in, but I know how many hours they play per week and frankly for people who work full time jobs keeping up with them would be ridiculous. People already do do specific things to hit their yields, just last week anytime you queued for FP someone who wasn't conquesting would complain that nothing but czerka was popping. If someone logs on and dedicates their evening of playtime after work to say, doing all the dailies/weekly for gree, and killing the world bosses that's all well and good for the first run, but if they're one of those active players you suggest should carry the guild then it's diminishing returns forcing them to do generic, non-themed content like warzones to bulk it out for the extra encryptions in what's already a ludicrous grind for a guild that maybe only brings in say 10 people hitting their yields each week, which makes us still bigger than a lot of the ones getting their feet wet in recent months.

Then again, looking at how focused 6.0 seems to be on just depleting stockpiles for the hardcore players at the expense of casuals I suppose it makes sense, crafting prices will only get more ridiculous and leading people through the story into endgame will only get more laborious if these values launch to give us a 6.0 all about draining more credits and paying out less.
Personally I don't see 500k for small yield is that bad. I look at conquest as a guild activity. so I don't see each person needing a huge amount of points. For a small guild of 5 people getting 100k with how points are done on the PTS it shouldn't be a problem. If your a PvE player I'll list some of the points for you.

1) TFB this week= 24,375
2) Xeno= 24,375
3) Illum: Defeat Gravak's= 16,250
4) illum: Surgok's= 16,250
5) Acticity Finder Operations= 6,688
6) Operations: Take them down= 6,688
7) Acitivity Finder, Socialite 1= 3,250

these are just a few of the Group activities listed.

For solo players:

1) Critical mission Iokath=9,750
2) Hoth Rampage I=3,250
3) Illum Rampage I=3,250
4) Chapter master=2,375
5) Crafting Inventor=1,000

There is no Galactic rampage on PTS, and I haven't spent time killing mobs on Illum, but I would expect rampage 2, and 3 to go up by the same amount, so roughly 4,700 for rampage II, and 6,300 for rampage III. As you can see even solo players have easy paths to getting to 50k
Referral Link: www.swtor.com/r/Q4Tp3P

LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
10.11.2019 , 09:29 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Toraak View Post

PS: Conquest I don't think was ever meant to be finished on a character in 20-40 mins, and 50k isn't bad considering some activities like doing TFB this week on PTS is 24,375 points. So doing 1 Operation this week is basically 1/2 of the points you'd need. The only thing which is being diminished some is doing random non conquest objectives. You'll still get points, but it'll take you far longer if you ignore the objectives on the list.
The pvp ones at least are infinitely repeatable. The PVE goals are largely once-per-day (or once-per-week) per legacy.

That's where the 'punish the alts' part comes in. Why did they up the conquest points so much while also leaving in the legacy restrictions?

We'll see when it goes live, but so far 'play your way' isn't as far as conquest goes. I can get conquest easy, as long as I don't try to do any prog team or harder content activities, and just play solo and do whatever face-roll easy group stuff is giving points. That's not 'play your way', that's 'grind bioware's way'.

I will be playing my way, and it's looking like that means conquest will be yet another part of 6.0 that I largely ignore.
Stealthy heals, stealthy dps, stealthy tank.

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
10.11.2019 , 09:45 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by LD_Little_Dragon View Post
The pvp ones at least are infinitely repeatable. The PVE goals are largely once-per-day (or once-per-week) per legacy.

That's where the 'punish the alts' part comes in. Why did they up the conquest points so much while also leaving in the legacy restrictions?

We'll see when it goes live, but so far 'play your way' isn't as far as conquest goes. I can get conquest easy, as long as I don't try to do any prog team or harder content activities, and just play solo and do whatever face-roll easy group stuff is giving points. That's not 'play your way', that's 'grind bioware's way'.

I will be playing my way, and it's looking like that means conquest will be yet another part of 6.0 that I largely ignore.
I think it was done for a few reasons, but the main one is BW has seen how many of us are getting so many alts done in conquest from doing non Conquest objectives they are making it harder for us to get 10-20 characters done with conquest each week. In truth it is kind of silly how easy it is to get 20+ toons completed on Live. I'm sure if I wanted to I could still get 6-7 done with the stuff on the PTS without to much of an issue, especially since I still get Conq from killing mobs, and from quests.

Edit: It could also be they are making it harder for alts at the beginning of a new expansion because of the new crafting material bag. They may be thinking of it this way so the markets don't get flooded with the mats like CMT's were the last few months.
Referral Link: www.swtor.com/r/Q4Tp3P

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
10.11.2019 , 10:04 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
I never cared about conquest tbh. However, if conquest becomes one part of the gearing progression ( and from what i heared it is ) then devs must compensate players who play only specific content with conquest losses. For example, i play only pvp and if i won't be able to get a weekly gear part for conquest because it requires playing pve it will be a weekly gear loss for pvp players. And where is your play what you want policy now? Maybe remove gear progression from conquest then?
Ding ding ding. With the conquest mats required for augments, we all need to hit our conquest caps faster on toons to get the supplies.
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

Sandrosw's Avatar


Sandrosw
10.11.2019 , 12:37 PM | #15
I will just copy my findings from PTS I posted some time ago, when there was a Dantooine event conquest week:

I wanted to check out the conquest on PTS anyway, so let me post what I found out.
I used lvl 75 jugg with item level 270 (basic trash level with no augments), lvl 50 dps companion, 150% bonus from SH, found all heroics to be still easy as they are on live - no need to use dcds unless I pull several groups at once.

I tried the Toxic Bombs Balmorra heroic first, as it is easy to see points there.
Killed first 4 gold mobs - 110 cqp for each = 440 cqp
Did bonus mission for killing 5+6 gold mobs - 815 cqp (they died together in aoe and finished the mission, game then shows the cqp as total) = 1255 cqp
Finished heroic - 625 cqp = 1880 cqp total.
There is no bonus for Dantooine conquest for Balmorra heroics anymore. However the conquest points for objectives that stayed are now 3x higher, so weeklies for Datooine or Ziost give 16250 points (so still about 1/3 of conquest goal)

Seeing that, it looks like killing gold (= high xp) mobs can actually be better than just spamming fast to complete heroics. So lets try that theory...
I hopped to Hoth to the heroic A Traitor's Punishment - the one full of Siths, with bonus mission to kill 40 of them, and I made sure I killed each and every single mob there (and got 18 cqp per normal, 55 cqp per silver, 138 cqp per gold and 185 cqp per elite). The quests gave same cqp as the previous heroics, but this time I ended up with 4693 conquest points - almost 10% of the needed conquest total, which is not bad.

Together with first quick one I ended with 6573 points (and many gear upgrades).

Then I went for fun to Korriban and did the easy heroics there:
Armed and Dangerous - killed everything inside - but noticed I get much less cqp for killing those easy mobs, and got only 1488 cqp for killing everything and finishing the quest. 8061 cqp and went on to the other one:
The Hate Machine - same story as before. But less mobs and most of them were weak, so only 799 cqp, which brought me to 8860 cqp.

That is actually nice, the super easy and fast heroics give much less points than the harder ones, and finally stealthers dont have such a big advantage over classes without stealth - they can skip mobs and finish missions faster, but they will have to do much more of them to get the same points as those who cannot choose to skip everything.

I remembered that I wanted to check staged bonus quest too, so I went to Ilum (since this heroic is a daily in like half of the conquests anyway). The mobs here gave same conquest points as those on Hoth (though they are not instanced, so Hoth heroic is much nicer in this) and each stage of bonus mission gave 625 cqp similar like on live (killing 15 mobs, destroying 6 speeders, summon and kill elite mob) and I ended up with +5411 cqp (14271 cqp total).

So after doing 5 heroics I have almost 30% of conquest done, and as you can see, 2 of those heroics were actually quite bad from cqp point of view. I suppose that on live I would have to do 3-4 planets (including the big mission for running x heroic on specific planet) to reach the conquest goal, which seems fine - the missions are not hard, can be done solo, no super gear required. You can even pick between doing easier ones for less points and harder ones for more points.

Doing conquest specific objectives will now probably be a good thing again - on live they feel almost pointless, especially those like 2k for killing MM FP bonus boss, which is much harder and takes more time that running 2 heroics that give the same amount of cqp currently. That is good, as now most of the conquest week dont feel really different from each other, though as usual we could use more objectives and some daily repeatable missions have infinitely repeatable (or maybe x times per day, like gree or rakghoul event missions should have that x set to match the weekly).

For people that actually don't feel like they have to run solo and group up with others, the FPs, uprisings and opses will provide much more stronger (silver/gold/elite) mobs worth many conquest points, and running a FP will not be so much about getting the 2375 points for completing it, but about many thousands points they will get from killing the npcs there. I guess running a mm ops will still cap (or almost cap) a character as it is on live now, while easier things like vet flashpoints will have to be run multiple times (which will also help with completing a weekly for them).

As for capping multiple toons - if you want to maximize profit, especially early after release to get new conquest materials, you will again have to pay more attention to objectives and plan around them, but it wont be as bad as before - like you can decide you will do Ziost weekly on one toon, Dantooine weekly on other toon, Black hole on third toon and Ossus bosses on fourth toon, and the missing points can be done doing a quick vet FP or a few heroics. Or just by going somewhere and killing a few mobs.. so the objectives will be a good help, but you won't need to keep tabs on them as closely as before we started receiving cqp every time we get xp.

Overall I don't see anything really bad here, it is not noticeably harder than it was before, and I fully understand they don't want everyone capping 20+ alts running 6-7 heroics on one planet again and again. The reward from conquest will be worth a lot in first few months after update, and the system in game still allows even solo players to cap 2-3 toons easily, if they want to do so. If player does a group content, it will probably be even easier, but I doubt we will see people capping 10+ toons unless they really grind day and night.
Darth Marr shall rise again.

Prepare for His return

Darev's Avatar


Darev
10.11.2019 , 04:55 PM | #16
Rather then type everything out again....here's the link to where you posted that the first time.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968289

And all the responses thereafter.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
10.11.2019 , 05:13 PM | #17
I'm not a fan of the PTS changes.

Not the raise of the personal goal to 50k
Not the raise of the small/medium/large guild goals of 500k / 2 million / 5 million points.

If they bumped 100% of the sources of CXP up to match the increase of the new goals, then it wouldn't matter.
But they didn't.
They bumped only the weekly conquest specific goals.

This nearly erases the change they made where they gave us the XP > CXP point bonus.

They also took away galactic rampage.
They also took away unlimited balmorra / taris heroic completion points (1k per mission on live during Dantooine week)

This change means that for many people it will take at least 2-3 times as much TIME to reach the personal goal.

Sure, if you run an op you can get 20k+ points and get 1/2 there.
But remember, they are also getting rid of last boss lockouts...so you have to do the ENTIRE op, not just the last 5 minutes.

Some people don't like the fact that right now other people can complete 10-20 (or more) toons per week. It can take 30 minutes some weeks to hit the 15k goal and you can do as many alts as you like. Personally, I like that system, but I get that not everyone does.

but hey...all MMOs change with time. Six months or a year down the road, maybe they walk back all these changes like the last two major changes they did (5.0 RNG gearing via command crates and the Conquest/alt restrictions that were essentially "erased" when they implemented the XP > CXP system).

But hey, If you PVP for your conquest, warzones/arenas/GSF....your experience probably won't change much. It might take longer, I didn't pay attention to the new point values for PVP conquest objectives.

What is going to happen is that there will be fewer flagship encryptions for sale on the GTN...so if you have a stockpile now, hold on to them, they'll be worth more next month after people really start to realize what the impact of some of these changes is really going to be.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
10.11.2019 , 08:02 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
I'm not a fan of the PTS changes.

Not the raise of the personal goal to 50k
Not the raise of the small/medium/large guild goals of 500k / 2 million / 5 million points.

If they bumped 100% of the sources of CXP up to match the increase of the new goals, then it wouldn't matter.
But they didn't.
They bumped only the weekly conquest specific goals.

This nearly erases the change they made where they gave us the XP > CXP point bonus.

They also took away galactic rampage.
They also took away unlimited balmorra / taris heroic completion points (1k per mission on live during Dantooine week)

This change means that for many people it will take at least 2-3 times as much TIME to reach the personal goal.

Sure, if you run an op you can get 20k+ points and get 1/2 there.
But remember, they are also getting rid of last boss lockouts...so you have to do the ENTIRE op, not just the last 5 minutes.

Some people don't like the fact that right now other people can complete 10-20 (or more) toons per week. It can take 30 minutes some weeks to hit the 15k goal and you can do as many alts as you like. Personally, I like that system, but I get that not everyone does.

but hey...all MMOs change with time. Six months or a year down the road, maybe they walk back all these changes like the last two major changes they did (5.0 RNG gearing via command crates and the Conquest/alt restrictions that were essentially "erased" when they implemented the XP > CXP system).

But hey, If you PVP for your conquest, warzones/arenas/GSF....your experience probably won't change much. It might take longer, I didn't pay attention to the new point values for PVP conquest objectives.

What is going to happen is that there will be fewer flagship encryptions for sale on the GTN...so if you have a stockpile now, hold on to them, they'll be worth more next month after people really start to realize what the impact of some of these changes is really going to be.
I have always appreciated you posts / information these las few weeks !

TYVM !
(████████████████████████████]:|█[ioi]█[|||████]|█|

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
10.11.2019 , 08:59 PM | #19
Guild perk Reinforcement Components being bound to character already force players into using the same toons week upon week. Any change which decreases the ability of alts to complete conquest, including but not limited to removal or reduction of event-non-specific objectives and infinitely repeatable objectives, further exacerbated the problem. It becomes play their way on one toon, instead of play your way.

Is it as bad as crafting? No, and maybe it will be a good thing overall, but I always point out where changes affect alt-play in a negative way.
If you think I've made a good contribution with this post, I kindly ask that you use my Refer a Friend link! Here is more information about the program.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
10.11.2019 , 09:02 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
I'm not a fan of the PTS changes.

Not the raise of the personal goal to 50k
Not the raise of the small/medium/large guild goals of 500k / 2 million / 5 million points.

If they bumped 100% of the sources of CXP up to match the increase of the new goals, then it wouldn't matter.
But they didn't.
They bumped only the weekly conquest specific goals.

This nearly erases the change they made where they gave us the XP > CXP point bonus.

They also took away galactic rampage.
They also took away unlimited balmorra / taris heroic completion points (1k per mission on live during Dantooine week)

This change means that for many people it will take at least 2-3 times as much TIME to reach the personal goal.

Sure, if you run an op you can get 20k+ points and get 1/2 there.
But remember, they are also getting rid of last boss lockouts...so you have to do the ENTIRE op, not just the last 5 minutes.

Some people don't like the fact that right now other people can complete 10-20 (or more) toons per week. It can take 30 minutes some weeks to hit the 15k goal and you can do as many alts as you like. Personally, I like that system, but I get that not everyone does.

but hey...all MMOs change with time. Six months or a year down the road, maybe they walk back all these changes like the last two major changes they did (5.0 RNG gearing via command crates and the Conquest/alt restrictions that were essentially "erased" when they implemented the XP > CXP system).

But hey, If you PVP for your conquest, warzones/arenas/GSF....your experience probably won't change much. It might take longer, I didn't pay attention to the new point values for PVP conquest objectives.

What is going to happen is that there will be fewer flagship encryptions for sale on the GTN...so if you have a stockpile now, hold on to them, they'll be worth more next month after people really start to realize what the impact of some of these changes is really going to be.
I agree 100% with your assessment.

What makes me sad about these changes is that conquest had actually become fun for me and my wife. We were doing more activities together to try and get out personal and guild targets.
Under the old system before the first Dantooine changes, we didn’t bother because it was difficult to get the targets.

Ive always been a big pvper and I don’t mind some group activities. But my wife doesn’t really like pvp or playing with other people she doesn’t know because she feels stressed and then has a panic attack if she messes it up for other people. She even does that when she plays with me sometimes.

But because it was easier to gain points by just doing less stressful activities like a CZ-198 run, farming some mobs for rampage and just the two of us doing some easier flash points or a tiny bit of crafting, we had some things to do together to work towards conquest. And she had things she could do by herself if I was off pvping or not around.

She has a much busier life than me as I’m partially retired. So with less time, she will struggle with these changes to get her personal conquest on more than one or maximum two Alts. Which means I have to get 8 or 9 of my Alts for our small family guild to reach conquest (my sister is unreliable). Sadly that will mean she won’t want to bother and frankly, neither will I.

6.0 has so many things that are changing. That we may just let the subs lapse and keep playing WoW classic until or if Bioware tweak the systems more to make them more fun.
I know it’s not released yet and I know the crafting changes were announced, but when you add all the bad together, it seems to out weigh the good.
We will give it a chance, but I’ve real reservations that enough has been done from the last pts testing. Conquest is just another thing on the list that’s turning us off.