Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Crafting and PTS

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

hooty's Avatar


hooty
09.26.2019 , 04:17 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I start wondering why we bother to test or provide feed back when it seems we are ignored or you plan to go ahead no matter what we say.
Iím not alone in feeling like this whole pts experience is a waste because the feed back is largely ignored or seen as wrong by you guys.
People have spent time to test and listed very detailed and thought out feed back and suggestions and not much of anything has changed on your end.
There is more that needs fixing than just tweaking the system because the system is fundamentally flawed or broken as itís currently set out.
You should not be trying to use crafting as another multifaceted time and credit sink, all it is going to do is destroy it
Agreed (on the "why bother testing"). Adjusting the nodes and crew missions is insignificant. Are there any real meaningful changes in the works? That would be useful to know Eric.
Tabris Legacy @ Star Forge
Haukka Legacy @ Satele Shan

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.26.2019 , 04:53 PM | #12
I think, at least for me, the first thing I need answered is this question...

Will I need 20 purple mats that I can ONLY get from completing conquest on my characters to craft a GREEN 270 item?
Will I ALSO need 20 purple mats that I can ONLY get from MM Flashpoints and the various levels of operations to craft that same GREEN 270 item.

If these requirements are just "placeholders" for PTS so we can't see what they'll REALLY cost on live, in an effort to prevent people from saving up....well...let us know that.

I think that's dumb...but it isn't impossible.

if you're REALLY going to keep those 40 rare mats in the mix for GREEN 270 items....

Crafting is dead with 6.0
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Balameb's Avatar


Balameb
09.26.2019 , 05:28 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
If these requirements are just "placeholders" for PTS so we can't see what they'll REALLY cost on live, in an effort to prevent people from saving up....well...let us know that.

I think that's dumb...but it isn't impossible.
Considering all the feedback, It would be dumb not telling us before if it is a placeholder.

But just reading Eric response we can see they are completely delusional about this crafting system. Thinking the problem is gathering nodes and mission time is dumb; or at least is dumb thinking we can find that a proper answer. We all have given a lot of feedback (some people have been very detailed) and the core issues has been completely ignored.

I was hopefull because it apeared like they wer listening to the feedback with some changes, but after last patch and this topic all just feels again like a smokescreen. I'm really getting tired of how the real issues are being ignored or statements like "unlike before we are giving so much info that you are just confused but this is better". At this point it would not surprise me, that would be the cosest explanation we will get for this crafting system.
Get 7 days as Sub and some free stuff --> Refferal link

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
09.26.2019 , 06:39 PM | #14
Eric, grade 11 synthweaving bonded attachments are still taking 1 hour each unmodified, or 15 minutes each with a level 50 companion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Delta_V View Post
First off, the cost to craft the basic green components/cell grafts/etc. are way too high, and need to be reverted to the 2/2/2 cost of every other tier. You can't just increase the cost of the most fundamental crafting item by FIVE TIMES and expect everything else to be fine. When you need three of the premium components to craft a prototype, and three prototypes to craft an artifact, that means you need 90 of each green mat to craft a single artifact component. That is just way, way too high.

Second, the number of rare materials required for everything is also completely impractical. The numbers for artifact and legendary schematics need to come down. More importantly, the correct number of flashpoint, Ops, or Conquest materials needed to craft Premium and Prototype gear is ZERO. Any other number is wrong, and will completely break crafting.

Third, the Reverse Engineering chance needs to be completely re-evaluated. Right now, Prototype Gear is vastly more difficult to make than for any prior tier, but the lower RE chance means you will go through way more Prototype items trying to learn the Artifact schematics. End result is the cost of learning a schematic is going to be astronomical. I'm talking orders of magnitude higher than the cost of learning schematics for Grade 10.

The combination of these issues isn't just going to make crafting inconvenient, it will be completely broken.
Couldn't agree more. The costs for grade 11 crafting are absurdly high. I'm sure BW don't want to put work into a system only to break it. But, as it stands, BW's target audience with these changes seems to be people who enjoy suffering, and no one else.
|| My referral link || Trask Ulgo 🡢 The Progenitor 🡢 Darth Malgus ||
Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
More love for class companions, please.
~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~

JediBoadicea's Avatar


JediBoadicea
09.26.2019 , 08:38 PM | #15
I know this was a post about things forthcoming and still subject to change, and I hate to come out swinging when things are still in progress, especially given the effort being made to solicit our feedback... but given that we also only have a month until 6.0 drops, I don't think a responsible feedback-giver can adopt a wait-and-see approach.

I think it's really important that the message be carried very clearly back to the team handling crafting that increasing the amount of mats that drop from gathering or missions is not going to be sufficient to fix this system.

As myself and others pointed out, if you look at only the green mats that drop from a node (setting aside the newly added blues and purples), the amount dropping is pretty much comparable to what drops now. It's vital that you NOT consider your blues and purples in this calculation because your BASE COMPONENT, the thing which you must craft mass quantities of before you can do anything else, is used making green mats. That base component cost was, as we've pointed out ad nauseum, increased by FIVE TIMES over any other grade prior to it. So unless you are going to increase the drop rate on GREEN mats from nodes also by FIVE TIMES, then this change does absolutely nothing to address the core issue.

Further, even if you were to increase the drop rate from nodes by five times, you would still be operating at a deficit overall, because there will be ONE planet where we can get the mats, and every single crafter in the game will be competing for them. (And you thought the problem with bots was bad NOW? Oh my gosh, just wait.) So it won't really matter what you do to tweak nodes on Onderon for bigger yields, because functionally, in this thing called reality, your actual human being players attempting to use this system under the constraints of limited servers, limited instances, and limited hours in the rotation of the planet Earth, will all be competing in a limited area against every other crafter out there for a resource they now need exponentially larger quantities of than they've ever needed before.

In the previous crafting thread, many people went to great lengths to detail the absolutely insane number of materials that are required to craft absolutely anything in 6.0. We cannot know what your intention is with this change, but unless your intention is to dramatically limit the role of crafting in the game, you need to please please please heed the common thread of what all of us are saying:

The only way to fix this is to lower the materials COST. There is nothing within reason you can do to increase the amount of mats we get that is going to actually achieve any sort of parity with the costs as you've currently designed them.

I know that gamers are perhaps the most hyperbole-prone demographic of humanity in existence. I know that to survive as a game developer you have to learn to pick the one speck of gold out of the mountain of crap that gamers throw out there and take everything with a grain of very jaded salt.

But in this, as with the problems observed with something like the Strongholds decorating system, as players observing the completely incomprehensible design choices being made the only conclusion we can draw is that whoever is designing the changes has never actually tried to USE THE SYSTEM. Theory-crafting toward an intended "big picture" result, in absence of actually using the system, is very dangerous.

If the team has actually read the posts people took the time to write in the previous crafting feedback thread, then it completely boggles the mind that most of the system is being left unchanged. If they have not read the posts, if someone is only trying to summarize ideas for them (Eric, I do not envy you your job, this isn't bashing you, but it's important to call out), I really strongly recommend that you ask them to set aside two hours one day to have THEM read the posts, because the math your players went to great lengths to map out for you tells the story very clearly, and maybe it takes a well-intentioned dev actually seeing that math with their own eyeballs.

Materials cost is the foundation of where everything is going wrong - that starts with the five times quantity requirement for your base component, and continues right on into the absolute absurdity of blue and purple mats of any kind (let alone Conquest) being tied to the creation of GREEN items.

Reverse-engineering chances are an issue and others have done fantastic math on those, but I would hazard a guess that if the issue of materials cost was addressed that most of us would be less alarmed about RE. If you want to make the most difficult of end game crafted items much harder to achieve by forcing us to invest more into RE, that actually makes sense (we may not like it, but it makes sense). What makes no sense is compounding that by an insane order of magnitude by underpinning that gamble risk with an enormous increase in materials cost. By doing so you have elevated it from "difficult" to "prohibitive".

The fact that Jawa Junk Prices is being called out as a key issue also troubles me, because it makes me wonder if anyone has carefully read all the feedback we provided. Although Jawa Junk prices were often mentioned, almost universally they were mentioned in the context of "and if this is going to be what you're requiring for base materials cost, then Jawa Junk prices are too high." Jawa Junk prices in isolation are NOT the issue. What we have been trying to point out is that as a supplementary system to fill in the gaps in a pinch, the prices are residing in a different GALAXY entirely in light of how many mats are currently required.

Forget the Jawa Junk. Forget worrying about finding the magic number of mats that need to drop from nodes. Forget trying to excruciatingly fine tune the number of mats that a failed or succeeded mission should give you. All of that is looking at the symptoms and not the cause. If you were to reduce the ridiculous baseline mats quantity requirements for all crafting, and remove the requirements for blue and purple mats from any green item, then you wouldn't really need to worry about a lot of the rest of it.

Oh, and P.S., don't make Grade 11 components required in the cost of war supplies. We did the math on that too. Spoiler alert: it completely breaks things.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.26.2019 , 10:26 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by JediBoadicea View Post
But in this, as with the problems observed with something like the Strongholds decorating system, as players observing the completely incomprehensible design choices being made the only conclusion we can draw is that whoever is designing the changes has never actually tried to USE THE SYSTEM. Theory-crafting toward an intended "big picture" result, in absence of actually using the system, is very dangerous.

If the team has actually read the posts people took the time to write in the previous crafting feedback thread, then it completely boggles the mind that most of the system is being left unchanged. If they have not read the posts, if someone is only trying to summarize ideas for them (Eric, I do not envy you your job, this isn't bashing you, but it's important to call out), I really strongly recommend that you ask them to set aside two hours one day to have THEM read the posts, because the math your players went to great lengths to map out for you tells the story very clearly, and maybe it takes a well-intentioned dev actually seeing that math with their own eyeballs.
This is my exact sentiment too. Whoever is designing the game simply has no idea what would make the game better or worse because they don't play it.

They also seem to not read their own forums for their own game for feedback... And if not shouldn't someone be reading through the feedback threads etc. and relaying that information to the devs or brain trust that makes the decisions for game design choices? This would mean a failure to communicate situation exists on many levels.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Hawkebatt's Avatar


Hawkebatt
09.27.2019 , 01:50 AM | #17
Crafting is not worth doing and I did about an hour of farming for mats in Onderon and the amount of nodes were few and far between. Strange that in the hunting lodge I kept tripping over them, but I realized that was just the scavenging and slicng nodes mixed together. Out on the rest of the map it was okay. no where near how it is on Daravanis but it needs to be. With the extreme amounts of mats that are needed and everyone and their brother going to go after them people will be fighting over nodes.

There are just not enough nodes on the map. I stopped farming mats when you moved the level 10 mats to Iokath as it was not worth the time. Roughly one hour got me about 75 crystals per color and various other mats. Not that I can tell since it does not post in chat what I looted.

Please make the rank 11 mats and the schematic requirements match all the other ranks. Crafting takes long enough as it is and no green should ever, ever, ever, include a rare purple in its construction. Leave this in and many will just stop crafting making the situation even worse as most things you can craft are not worth the time or the mats to craft for so little gain.

Please fix this nightmare and listen to the ones who took the time to see how horrible it truly is.
Emotion, yet Peace. Ignorance, yet Knowledge. Passion, yet Serenity.

Chaos, Yet Harmony. Death, yet the Force. Contemplation, yet Duty.

Banthabreeder's Avatar


Banthabreeder
09.27.2019 , 02:00 AM | #18
I'm starting to wonder if the Devs intention is to keep us at Grade 10 Augs, Stims, healthpacs, ect. Cause no one other then high member guilds will be able to make the Grade 11 stuff. I can guarantee you that if someone is able to make something grade 11, it will be sold on the GTN for hundreds of millions credits, no less. The only people who could afford them are gold farmers who are moving their money around.
ďDonít call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight glob of grease.Ē

Minzurion's Avatar


Minzurion
09.27.2019 , 03:01 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Banthabreeder View Post
I'm starting to wonder if the Devs intention is to keep us at Grade 10 Augs, Stims, healthpacs, ect. Cause no one other then high member guilds will be able to make the Grade 11 stuff. I can guarantee you that if someone is able to make something grade 11, it will be sold on the GTN for hundreds of millions credits, no less. The only people who could afford them are gold farmers who are moving their money around.
I have a few dozen grade 10 stims in production, the extra bonus of the grade 11 stims is insignificant compared to the grade 10 one.
Click this referal link. For 7 days subscription.
Read the Referal infos.
May The Force Be With You!

well's Avatar


well
09.27.2019 , 06:43 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
I think, at least for me, the first thing I need answered is this question...

Will I need 20 purple mats that I can ONLY get from completing conquest on my characters to craft a GREEN 270 item?
Will I ALSO need 20 purple mats that I can ONLY get from MM Flashpoints and the various levels of operations to craft that same GREEN 270 item.

If these requirements are just "placeholders" for PTS so we can't see what they'll REALLY cost on live, in an effort to prevent people from saving up....well...let us know that.

I think that's dumb...but it isn't impossible.

if you're REALLY going to keep those 40 rare mats in the mix for GREEN 270 items....

Crafting is dead with 6.0
That sums it up nicely. You will drive some players away. I don't know how many or even it really matters to you. It seems like your going out of your way to get rid of people. There is some good QOL but not worth dealing with the rest of what you might implement. It is PTS so it isn't the final product but I've seen what has happened in the past. It is your game so it is up to you.