Just a simple suggestion. How about adding more lightsaber related skills (even if just situational, not rotation based) in upcoming expansion for Socrcerer and Sage?

I mean, this is what mostly disconnects me from the characters. They have lightsaber, they always draw, the story acts in a way that finding\creating your own lightsaber is a big deal on your path, but then you never actually use it.

There are already examples of how this can be executed, take a look at Red Mage in Final Fantasy 14. class is a caster, but uses melee combo in between in his roation, which i find a very cool concept. Something similar must have a potential to implement in this game as well

The Sage is a ranged DPS class, so their saber abilities are limited. Anyone interested in dispatching a melee mob with a saber can do so.

A true mix of force and saber skills is used by the Knight / Warrior disciplines, so one can play that.

The Sage is a ranged DPS class, so their saber abilities are limited. Anyone interested in dispatching a melee mob with a saber can do so.

 

A true mix of force and saber skills is used by the Knight / Warrior disciplines, so one can play that.

I think the desire is the fantasy we see in star wars, great force users can also sometimes be great at other things, there is no role in the game for a Count Dooku type or Yoda type who are both great force users and lightsaber duelists. The thing is the game has these fixed roles. But there are several things the devs can do.

Options

1. New Hybrid Class: For class story purposes, this class can actually select the path of the Consular/Sorc or Knight/Warrior, it's a class designed to be able to dps from range or melee competently if you choose and effecitvely combines abilities from the melee classes and range specs.

2. New System that allows players to add a specialisation from any other class, where they can swap like a mode during combat. e.g. if your sage or sorc could pick up a melee spec from the knight/jugg , sent/mara or shadow/assassin and be able to switch specs in combat like you are switching a druid form (from warcraft) or a mode/stance - then they can play out that fantasy fully.. So want to pelt from range for a little while, then fancy going in close quarters? then switch to your melee mode and gain new action bars (and switch weapon automatically). That is one way to do it... but this would require every class being able to gain or pick a spec from another class, and opens a lot of possibilities, which could include able to start the class quest of the spec you choose to learn.

At the heart of it you can be a Count Dooku or Yoda type, great with the force and great at duelling.

3. Add A Very interesting New Ability to Sage/Sorc that opens up some melee combat. Floating Lightsaber allows the Sage/Sorc to be able to send their weapon into melee like a pet on a cooldown (think dancing runeblade but much better), while they damage from range - this is a special ability like in one of the earlier KotoRs, this new "pet" i.e. your lightsaber that you will be using the force to essentially give it a life of its own, has a number of fancy looking moves it can do. While you damage from range, it will melee. The cool thing about this ability is that you can use those lightsaber moves yourself if you are in melee, they do a lot more damage if you are using them, because it is no longer a "pet" and presumably you are using them instead of your range abilities. They come with a dis-engage ability that allows you back flip out 20-30 yards back to range, and a force leap flip that allows you to quickly leap into combat. this force leap shares a cooldown with force speed.

The Sage is a ranged DPS class, so their saber abilities are limited. Anyone interested in dispatching a melee mob with a saber can do so.

 

A true mix of force and saber skills is used by the Knight / Warrior disciplines, so one can play that.

i understand that all too well, but the thing is, Sorcerer\Sage still pack a lightsaber as a main weapon, they use it in cutscenes even (especially in kotfe\kotet), but they NEVER use it in actual fight. best it can do is "visually" deflect blaster bolts

In inquisitor\Consular story getting a lightsaber is your initiation thing, which is pretty big deal i say

Moreover, my example with FF14 Red Mage, who uses Rapier is his weapon, stands true all the same. This is a Caster job and nothing can change that, but it has cool concept of using melee attacks by using gap closers after he has his White\Dark mana at certain level to deliver a melee combo and then a skill to retreat back to ranged and continue casting spells.

What i'm just saying, it will be cool if similar to FF14 Red Mage spec was introduced to Sage\Sorcerer, so we can finally feel like this glowing stick is not just for pizza parties and occasional cutscenes.

Mechanically yes, this will introduce a lot of challenges balance wise, but again, in the same FF14 game, they made it so Red mage is not OP in any way by being 75% caster\25% melee

Personally, I want an option where I can play a sage or sorc with NO martial weapon.

I wield the force as my weapon. Don't hand me a stupid glowstick and tell me I got whack people with it rather than split their heads open just by thinking about it.

Mystic mayhem all the way!

Personally, I want an option where I can play a sage or sorc with NO martial weapon.

 

I wield the force as my weapon. Don't hand me a stupid glowstick and tell me I got whack people with it rather than split their heads open just by thinking about it.

 

Mystic mayhem all the way!

Each to their own. I off course disagree with this. The most powerful Star wars fantasies come from the movie/show continuums, and in there, powerful force wielders like Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Siduous - wield the force and a lightsaber.

I think both our desires should be accomodate. You should have the option not to have your lightsaber out when wielding your abilities, and we should have options that allow us to use the lightsaber meaningfully occasionally too.

i understand that all too well, but the thing is, Sorcerer\Sage still pack a lightsaber as a main weapon, they use it in cutscenes even (especially in kotfe\kotet), but they NEVER use it in actual fight. best it can do is "visually" deflect blaster bolts

 

In inquisitor\Consular story getting a lightsaber is your initiation thing, which is pretty big deal i say

 

Moreover, my example with FF14 Red Mage, who uses Rapier is his weapon, stands true all the same. This is a Caster job and nothing can change that, but it has cool concept of using melee attacks by using gap closers after he has his White\Dark mana at certain level to deliver a melee combo and then a skill to retreat back to ranged and continue casting spells.

 

What i'm just saying, it will be cool if similar to FF14 Red Mage spec was introduced to Sage\Sorcerer, so we can finally feel like this glowing stick is not just for pizza parties and occasional cutscenes.

 

Mechanically yes, this will introduce a lot of challenges balance wise, but again, in the same FF14 game, they made it so Red mage is not OP in any way by being 75% caster\25% melee

I agree with you, as I outlined in my response to him. How they get around to it, Ill leave that to them but essentially, on my TK Sage or Lightning Sorc, I want to be abel to occssionally do some fancy lightsaber moves and acrobatics.

Let them figure out a way that can work meaningfully and cool/fun. When you look at the four major Sage/Sorc characters in Star Wars Yoda/Sidious use more force than lightsaber but both use lightsaber, whiles Luke and Dooku use lightsabers more often than force but their force usage is very powerful.

Each to their own. I off course disagree with this. The most powerful Star wars fantasies come from the movie/show continuums, and in there, powerful force wielders like Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Siduous - wield the force and a lightsaber.

 

I think both our desires should be accomodate. You should have the option not to have your lightsaber out when wielding your abilities, and we should have options that allow us to use the lightsaber meaningfully occasionally too.

That is the entire underlying issue here. The classes were designed with a very strong focus on fulfilling the fantasy that they represent within the Star Wars lore. Each class plays along that instantly recognizable archetype and so they decided to create all the mechanical elements of the classes to support that. This eventually lead to the extremely rigid weapon and ability system that we have in this game, which is horribly outdated.

Therefore they cannot accomodate both of your desires to pick and choose which weapon to use or not to use. The mechanics behind the classes don't support that in its current form. I wished they would spend the time and money to redesign the combat system from the ground up, but I seriously doubt that it will ever happen considering the state of the game.

That is the entire underlying issue here. The classes were designed with a very strong focus on fulfilling the fantasy that they represent within the Star Wars lore. Each class plays along that instantly recognizable archetype and so they decided to create all the mechanical elements of the classes to support that. This eventually lead to the extremely rigid weapon and ability system that we have in this game, which is horribly outdated.

 

Therefore they cannot accomodate both of your desires to pick and choose which weapon to use or not to use. The mechanics behind the classes don't support that in its current form. I wished they would spend the time and money to redesign the combat system from the ground up, but I seriously doubt that it will ever happen considering the state of the game.

No, you're right, it won't happen, it's an old game, it's made it's money, and is a cash cow, minimal improvements for max profits is its model, the question is what can they fit in that can have big impact with minimum resources spent.

When force users use the force, they never have a lightsaber active and on, so this must be hidden, however all the powerful force users whom the Sage/Sorc are modelled after can all wield the lightsaber very well in combat, therefore the fantasy demands some capability to do so beyond the 1 slash.

Where is the force jumps and force acrobatics - all the sage/sorc characters did them, even Sidious in his fight with Yoda, and we see lots of that from Yoda/Luke and Dooku.

Which is why this request keeps coming up. it's not that people don't like the force abilities, they do, and they like the fantasy, it just feels a little incomplete without some more lightsaber capability.

my point is that the class designers should make an accommodation for this, whether the abilities are purely optional or have situational use or both, or they give an interesting ability like the one I suggested above, the floating lightsaber from KotoR 2 with some extra perks - which will allow lightsaber action whether remote as pet in a cooldown ability or in the hands of the sage/sorc with some attribute abilities.

They must decide, but this request has been asked for since 2012 for sage/sorc - and a range class having some melee capability isn't unheard off at all, nor is a melee class having some range capability (every melee class seems to have one spec that has some limited form) but why doesn't any range class have any serious melee ability and the excuse always used that its because of range? it's not like people are asking them to be a part melee class. They just want to be able to have some melee stuff that completes their Luke/Yoda and Dooku/Sidious fantasies.

The way i imagined they'd do it is similar to how balance druids in wow can go cat form. they don't have much use for cat form, but they can switch to it, and with an MoP ability called Heart of the Wild (HotW) revived for Shadowlands, it can actually become briefly very powerful on a cooldown ability - just to offer some variation.

Now if Sages and Sorcs had an ability that allowed them to switch to Knights/Warriors like a druid would change form, but had an ability that would empower these melee strikes greatly for a short time on a long a cooldown, it would scratch the itch.

There are options, i think it's popular enough to consider and at the end of the day, it is part of the very characters the Sage/Sorc classes were modelled after, i.e. Luke/Yoda and Dooku/Sidious

Here are my recommendations:

1. A suite of new abilities meant to add some melee flair

i) Passive ability that increases the amount of damage your next melee abilities will do for every ranged ability you use, stacking up to x amount for y secs. - this ensures that you are using your ranged abilities most of hte time, but have a use to employ melee if you're nearby or want the extra fun

ii) 2 additional lightsaber abilities - you can copy from the knight classes - the 3 abilities can work off each other.

iii) floating lightsaber - use the force to send your lightsaber into melee while you destroy your enemies from afar, your lightsaber acts as a pet and can use your 3 melee lightsaber abilities on cooldown. Lasts z secs with k cooldown.

iv) Force Leap, when you reach 20 stacks of passive ability i) you can force leap into melee activating the melee damage boost that lasts for the y secs.

v) Force disengage: Acrobatically force back flip far away from your target up to 30 yards, has an n sec cooldown, and triggers an m sec cooldown of force speed.

- The point of this is to add some fancy melee moves that are useful to use for limited periods of time occasionally, making you feel a bit more like a jedi even though you spend most of your time at range.

2. Saber mode/stance ; You can switch to this mode, and it will activate a swathe of melee abilities (similar to how a druid switches forms), these will never do as much damage as your ranged abilities, however you have a cooldown ability that boosts the potency of these strikes considerably so they can be useful to use at a pinch or once in a while for variation.

3. Allow every class to be able to adapt a spec from another class of their choice. Sage/sorcs who want that Yoda/Luke and Dooku/Sidious fantasy are free to choose one of the Knight/warrior specs as their second, to be able to switch to at will and still be effective.

Therefore they cannot accomodate both of your desires to pick and choose which weapon to use or not to use.

The way to accommodate both desires is to change what it means to wield a weapon.

For those who wish to appear saber-free, the main hand becomes something not displayed, like "Essence of Force" and it's a shell that gets populated just like any other main hand, but does not render in the game.

Similarly, the off-hand could be another shell, something like "Force Affinity" and also does not render.

The way to accommodate both desires is to change what it means to wield a weapon.

 

For those who wish to appear saber-free, the main hand becomes something not displayed, like "Essence of Force" and it's a shell that gets populated just like any other main hand, but does not render in the game.

 

Similarly, the off-hand could be another shell, something like "Force Affinity" and also does not render.

Exactly, it's all a matter of being creative. They can make allowances for thsoe who don't want to display weapons, and give some lightsaber melee abilities that have a use for those who wnat to add a small measure of it into their play.

I think it is a good idea to add somethign to sage/sorcs because of hte primary fantasy of the sage and sorceror have never been void of lightsaber action. They can use one and very well, they just always favour the force.

So, your force abilities will always be your main kit, but you can have a powerufl set of melee abiliteis and even a mechanic that allows them to be worthwhile using. This is all possible. Take the example I gaev before.

The 5 points allow you to benefit from going into melee because of a stacking buff that builds as you use range abilities, at the max stacks it allows a force leap ability (you get some cool jedi acrobatics) to land in melee and then unleash your 3 melee abilities that are temporarily empowered by this buff. You can then disengage in a cool acrobatic movement back into range - it's fun

Your second mechanic is a floating lightsaber, which you can send into mele while you continue damaging at range. This floating lightsaber is like a pet/companion that you can control, allowing you to do your lower damage melee slashes while casting at ragne, - when the floating lightsaber is up, it acts like a companion/pet's abilities which means you can use them simultaenously with your abilities, becuase it's not you using them.

This is a powerful ability in concept because it demonstrates great mastery of the force and concentration as well as lightsaber skill - which reflects your mastery of the force and techniques while not having any where near the arsenal of the melee users.

The alternative off course is to allow knights and consulars to access each others abilities like Marauders/Sentinels access forms like Ataru or druids access animal forms in warcraft - changing your quick bar totally to the new class' abilities now useable while that form is active. You can now use the other jedi/sith classes abilities but without the boosts that proficiency skills provide to the advanced class, so it becomes merely cosmetic, except for the once ever 6 min cooldown ability that greatly empowers your alternate stance, allowing you to do a lot more damage in these switched modes while the ability is active.

I've got the same beef with Powertechs. I've been playing AP and been having fun, but egads does it look stupid holding the gun out for the whole fight, but half my attacks are animated by "lift left arm -> fire from the launcher that suddenly appeared -> lower left arm -> raise it again -> repeat". And unfortunately it's the more or less the same for Shield and Pyro specs, too.

Just, I dunno, like make Rail Shot fire from the gun or something, please (maybe Magnetic Blast, too, if I say double-please)?

On my sage, I find myself often finishing off weak enemies with the one lightsaber move that's available to us, just for fun. It wouldn't ruin the class's archetype as a ranged caster by allowing access to some more impactful melee moves, provided they're not part of the main dps rotation.

They could do as they did with the legacy class and unarmed abilities, make them situational and more for the fun of using them, rather than altering the class's playstyle. If I recall, sages/sorcerers used to have an additional melee ability earned at the early levels, but it was lost in the ability purge that happened for all classes a few years ago.

Exactly, it's all a matter of being creative. They can make allowances for thsoe who don't want to display weapons, and give some lightsaber melee abilities that have a use for those who wnat to add a small measure of it into their play.

I think it is quite a bit more than just a matter of being creative and you underestimate the amount of work required to do the things you propose. Especially from a balancing perspective.

I think it is quite a bit more than just a matter of being creative and you underestimate the amount of work required to do the things you propose. Especially from a balancing perspective.

There's 2 issues here.

One is simply swapping out visible for invisible shells for sage/sorc gear similar to how covert armor works. This is very doable.

The other poster's proposed stat changes etc., does affect balance/etc.

There's 2 issues here.

 

One is simply swapping out visible for invisible shells for sage/sorc gear similar to how covert armor works. This is very doable.

 

The other poster's proposed stat changes etc., does affect balance/etc.

The only feasible and reasonable way of implementing would be simply hiding the visual effects of the slot, like covert armour does.

Hmmm, but when I think about it, it's one thing to hide gear, but another to hide a weapon since equipping a weapon triggers an animation.

However, we do have a no weapon animation. If you unequip your lightsaber you can still cast all those abilities, weapon free animation was already encoded, it would simply be a matter of recognising the lightsaber as no weapon for animation purposes i.e. with this option activated it swaps the animation file for a no weapon file, or maybe simply copies your lightsabers stat to an invisible/no weapon stat, i.e. the stats are copied over or used while the lightsaber remains at your belt.

I am making it sound more complicated, but I can't imagine it would actually be complicated.

Prior to 5.0 we started as the base class, so we would start the game as a Consular before choosing an advanced class on the fleet, and Consulars had two lightsaber attacks (Saber Strike and Double Strike). I miss that. I understand why they made that change (to start as the AC, not to remove the second lightsaber attack), but I think it was a mistake. I think they should have gone another route to address the AC issue*.

My very first character was a Jedi Sage; created way back in 2012. I remember running around Tython as a Consular and having to use my lightsaber because we had to. We did not start the game with Project and Disturbance like Sages do now. When we got off of that taxi from the Master's Retreat and walked down those stairs, faced with the hordes or marauding Flesh Raiders, the only tool at our disposal was Saber Strike and our glowing wiffle bat.

At the same time BW took away our Double Strike they also gave us the Impeding Slash utility. Does anyone take it? I never do, and I have more Sages and Sorcerers than any other class. I do use the basic Saber Strike occasionally as a finishing move, but since 5.0, since Sages start with two Force attacks, Saber Strike really only sees use at level 1 and becomes completely useless at level 2.

I think that Sages should get Impeding Slash automatically. It could continue to replace Saber Strike or exist alongside it, but we should not have to spend a utility point on it. Further, something that would fit in with our status as a ranged class, I think Sages should get a saber throw ability that throws out our saber in an arc damaging anything in front of our character. Shorter range than what Knights get, but the Sage ability would be a conical AOE.

* What I think they should have done about the AC issue is move the advanced trainers to the starter worlds and changed the scripts so that one had to speak to the trainer and choose their AC before they would be allowed on the shuttle to the fleet or allowed to queue for anything. This would have allowed us to continue to play as our base class, allowed us to make that choice about the path our character was going to follow, and retained that aspect of progression, that feeling that our character actually grows in their training, but alas, that will never be again because I highly doubt they will ever return that part of the game.

Prior to 5.0...

I think you meant prior to 4.0. The big class overhaul was introduced with the release of SoR and when KOTFE came around we had to pick an advanced class during character creation.

I think you meant prior to 4.0. The big class overhaul was introduced with the release of SoR and when KOTFE came around we had to pick an advanced class during character creation.

Nope, 5.0. Check the patch notes.

https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11292016/game-update-5.0-knights-eternal-throne-early-access

Choose your Advanced Class at character creation! Existing characters that have not yet chosen an Advanced Class will be prompted to do so after logging into the game.

 

Double Strike is now Shadow exclusive.

Shadow of Revan was 3.0, Fallen Empire was 4.0, and Eternal Throne was 5.0.

Nope, 5.0. Check the patch notes.

 

https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11292016/game-update-5.0-knights-eternal-throne-early-access

 

 

Shadow of Revan was 3.0, Fallen Empire was 4.0, and Eternal Throne was 5.0.

Interesting, I was sure that the change to character selection was made when KOTFE came out. Time really flies sometimes.

Interesting, I was sure that the change to character selection was made when KOTFE came out. Time really flies sometimes.

Well, keep in mind that 5.0 release in November 2016. It was three years from 5.0, 11/2016, to 6.0, 10/2019. But yeah, it is hard to imagine that it has been four years since they took away the base classes. I miss being a Consular.

I use their lightsaber just because I can, mainly for trash mobs. Both do have lighsaber abilities some more than other dependant on skill tree.

Yeah.. me too. I've got some ideas I think will really help us:

1. Allow saber strike and double strike (returned) to be off the GCD, so if you're in melee range you can cast with one hand and strike.

2. Impeding slash doesn't replace saberstrike but is it's own ability and trainable by sage/sorc

3. New passive that builds a stacking buff that would enhance your melee abilities at max stack you can do a force leap.

4. Add the floating saber ability mentioned in the earlier response

5. Add the Force leap (at max stacks only) and force disengage (puts force speed on cooldown) abilities also mentioned earlier (new animation - force leap is a multi flip in the air (think Yoda in star wars who can rotate several times as he is jumping to locations). Force disengage is force added black flip away from the target as described above.

6. Add a Saber fling ability (new animation rather than in an arc like the Knight/Marauders, it's in a frontal cone, like how you would fling a knife at target practice) while the saber travel to it's target and back, your ranged spells gain something (off the gcd? less cast time? more power, more crit, or even ability modification)