I recently wrote an article for Toroz.com.au that mathematically compares Merc utility against 14 other tank and dps builds and ranks them. Would love to mount a case for change based on metrics & numbers and looking for input and ideas on what could realistically be done to effectively balance our class.

Would also welcome any theory-crafters out there with suggestions and feedback on the maths - inaccuracies, improvements etc...

http://toroz.com.au/2012/07/the-third-edge-mercenarycommando-interrupts-utility/#comments

Arbitrary and made up numbers are hardly maths.

You ignore the armor benefits a merc has. You ignore the huge personal and group dps benefit 20% arpen brings. You ignore the very strong single target dps couple with strong aoe utility which can also be used while mobile.

But even if you didn't ignore those, your numbering is arbitrary so it wouldn't matter.

And even with that painted picture, at 10 that's just below middle of the pack. Given the armor and strong dps that's a pretty good place to be.

And you think a 100 hps over 45 seconds is the most powerful heal utility? When people are bursting 4000+ dps in BGs, that is not even noticeable, let alone the most valuable heal of all.

Would you expect, for example, a heavy armor heavy dps arpen providing class to have as much utility as a medium or light armor wearer? Or a melee range bound class?

It just reads as another BH QQ -- ignoring the huge benefits of the BH class, and pointing to other classes strengths and saying "we want what they have" while being unprepared to give up strengths to have it.

Arbitrary and made up numbers are hardly maths.

 

You ignore the armor benefits a merc has. You ignore the huge personal and group dps benefit 20% arpen brings. You ignore the very strong single target dps couple with strong aoe utility which can also be used while mobile.

 

But even if you didn't ignore those, your numbering is arbitrary so it wouldn't matter.

 

And even with that painted picture, at 10 that's just below middle of the pack. Given the armor and strong dps that's a pretty good place to be.

 

And you think a 100 hps over 45 seconds is the most powerful heal utility? When people are bursting 4000+ dps in BGs, that is not even noticeable, let alone the most valuable heal of all.

 

Would you expect, for example, a heavy armor heavy dps arpen providing class to have as much utility as a medium or light armor wearer? Or a melee range bound class?

 

It just reads as another BH QQ -- ignoring the huge benefits of the BH class, and pointing to other classes strengths and saying "we want what they have" while being unprepared to give up strengths to have it.

You sound like a pyrotech...Go away.

The answer is rather simple ...

* no interrupt

* no escape ability

* no movement enhancing ability

* worst of the knockback skills

* no utility that the healers don't already provide (rezz & mezz)

* below average amount of stun abilities

* one skill tree has a debuff that can be provided by multiple classes and doesn't stack

* we're outshined in DPS and burst by Annihilation Marauders and probably well played Snipers

* 2nd weakest set of defensive cooldowns for PvP of all classes (Sorcerer beats us to the last spot)

Why I still play my Merc despite all these facts?

Because I love the style, the background story, animation and if you're good at the game - meaning you are able to concentrate for 5 minutes and hit every CD, proc and optimize movement, which isn't rocketscience - you can more than compete with the other classes.

This might sound ambivalent and it really is. I think the basic mechanics of the class are really enjoyable but I would like to bring more to the table than loads of rockets.

I think apart from an interrupt the only two things thing the Mercenary needs at the moment is an improvement for heat management for Pyrotech (internal CD on RS procs isn't working for the Merc spec) to make it less clunky and another stolen ability from WoW: Misdirect. It gives us a nice exclusive toy that helps tanks pick up aggro at the start and another shiny button.

Arbitrary and made up numbers are hardly maths.

 

You ignore the armor benefits a merc has. You ignore the huge personal and group dps benefit 20% arpen brings. You ignore the very strong single target dps couple with strong aoe utility which can also be used while mobile.

 

But even if you didn't ignore those, your numbering is arbitrary so it wouldn't matter.

 

And even with that painted picture, at 10 that's just below middle of the pack. Given the armor and strong dps that's a pretty good place to be.

 

And you think a 100 hps over 45 seconds is the most powerful heal utility? When people are bursting 4000+ dps in BGs, that is not even noticeable, let alone the most valuable heal of all.

 

Would you expect, for example, a heavy armor heavy dps arpen providing class to have as much utility as a medium or light armor wearer? Or a melee range bound class?

 

It just reads as another BH QQ -- ignoring the huge benefits of the BH class, and pointing to other classes strengths and saying "we want what they have" while being unprepared to give up strengths to have it.

This is a lot of Derp for one person. 20% ARP is on two abilities, not applied to the target, and Power Techs also get this along with more ArP then a Merc in talents Merc cannot acquire.

Heavy armor is less then 5% mitigation over Medium armor, and whats this "High dps" you speak of? Mercs are actually not putting up High Dmg numbers anymore they were nerfed to average dps but given no utility to pace other classes...If your thinking high ArP and DPS then you are thinking Power Tech not Merc.

Give Merc the utility and drop them to medium armor...bet they would all take a resounding yes to several utility moves in trade for a drop to medium armor...Mara's are one of the hardest to kill in the game, along with healer OP's and guess what...they are medium armor, but have a ton of utility moves.

You dont sound educated on this matter so dont comment again please.

I would argue that the knockback skills are some of the best (especially as Arsenal Spec)

Jet Boost can be specced so that it pushes people a few meters farther than by default, and Rocket Punch can be specced as a second knockback with additional range possible. With the cooldown on Rocket Punch being as short as it is, if you use it intelligently, by the time the target climbs back up to you, it's ready for another knockback.

That being said, I would looooove a Sniper-style "Pinning Shots" root attack.

whats this "High dps" you speak of? Mercs are actually not putting up High Dmg numbers anymore they were nerfed to average dps but given no utility to pace other classes...If your thinking high ArP and DPS then you are thinking Power Tech not Merc.

You've never seen scoreboards with mercs/commandos putting up 300, 400, 500k damage regularly?

Interesting.

This is a lot of Derp for one person. 20% ARP is on two abilities, not applied to the target

...

You dont sound educated on this matter so dont comment again please.

Obviously I'm talking about 20% armor debuff that is applied to the target. You'd have to be pretty thick not to work that out.

Mercs do incredible single target dps. And with 20% + 35% + bonus to cut through armor they get target flexibility other classes do not. Not only that, they buff everyone elses dps significantly. That is what a heavy armor range support class is meant to do. In return, if you get melee glued to you then you need to rely on your team to survive.

Don't cry because everyone doesn't agree with you. You just end up looking stupid.

You've never seen scoreboards with mercs/commandos putting up 300, 400, 500k damage regularly?

 

Interesting.

You'll see them,but only if said merc isn't playing like a derp

I would argue that the knockback skills are some of the best (especially as Arsenal Spec)

 

Jet Boost can be specced so that it pushes people a few meters farther than by default, and Rocket Punch can be specced as a second knockback with additional range possible. With the cooldown on Rocket Punch being as short as it is, if you use it intelligently, by the time the target climbs back up to you, it's ready for another knockback.

 

That being said, I would looooove a Sniper-style "Pinning Shots" root attack.

Why doesn't anyone post anything like this on my thread?

/endderail

You ignore the armor benefits a merc has. You ignore the huge personal and group dps benefit 20% arpen brings. You ignore the very strong single target dps couple with strong aoe utility which can also be used while mobile.

20% armor pen is huge? Please. No, 90% armor pen for RailShot is huge. 100% armor pen for FlameBurst is huge.

Strong AoE? You've got to be kidding me. DFA once per minute doesn't even come close to spamming ForceStorm 5 times in a row.

I would argue that the knockback skills are some of the best

Nah, BH knockbacks are fairly generic. Which is to say they aren't worse than most other classes. But Sniper's are FAR better. Which brings up the issue of why Snipers have higher dps than Arsenal AND better defensive abilities. Correspondingly, why is the game designed so that PT Pyro has higher dps than Merc Pyro AND more utility? BW violated a cardinal design rule - don't make one class inferior in everything to another class. And yet here we are in ToR, with Merc dps being clearly a Pareto inferior subclass.

20% armor pen is huge?

Absolutely, when you're not only buffing your own dps but the dps of every other class. The dps increase is worth half the difference between a tier of gear. That is huge.

Strong AoE? You've got to be kidding me. DFA once per minute doesn't even come close to spamming ForceStorm 5 times in a row.

I see you're problem. You're comparing yourself with a Sorc. That's hilarious.

We have 5 aoe attacks, 3 of which can be used while on the move, and two of which are spammable. That provides utility that other classes only dream of.

Nah, BH knockbacks are fairly generic. Which is to say they aren't worse than most other classes. But Sniper's are FAR better. Which brings up the issue of why Snipers have higher dps than Arsenal AND better defensive abilities. .

I can no longer take you seriously if you think BH knockbacks aren't a huge strength of the class. Try playing some other classes some time. You might appreciate what you have.

Arbitrary and made up numbers are hardly maths.

This.

It is especially obvious how subjective this is when looking at the the PDF with explanations on where the numbers come from.

For example, you've given 4 points for stealth scan, which is mostly a PVP ability, and 5 points for combat rez, which is mostly a PVE ability. So should we look at this from a PVE perspective or PVP? In my opinion you can't do both at the same time.

Then you've given Agents 9 points for being able to mitigate max ~2k shieldable damage every 45 seconds, but only 3.5 points for being able to stun the target for 4 seconds every 45 seconds. I think many will agree that the second one is most of the time quite a bit more usable than the first, except for in PVE boss encounters (again, from which point of view was this created?).

Also, while looking at Agents, it seems as though you've given Snipers 5 points for Escape, but because Lethality Operatives have the option to reduce the cooldown from 120s to 90s, you've lowered the points to 4.5 for them? Isn't that a bit backwards?

Regardless, we again get to why a table like this is flawed, the Escape ability is generally more useful for a melee Operative than what it is for a ranged Sniper.

And so on...

I would argue that the knockback skills are some of the best (especially as Arsenal Spec)

 

Jet Boost can be specced so that it pushes people a few meters farther than by default, and Rocket Punch can be specced as a second knockback with additional range possible. With the cooldown on Rocket Punch being as short as it is, if you use it intelligently, by the time the target climbs back up to you, it's ready for another knockback.

 

That being said, I would looooove a Sniper-style "Pinning Shots" root attack.

20 seconds jet boost is day and night vs 30 seconds, and I love how far some people go when hit by it, it's the only thing I actually like from arsenal (besides the barrage+target tracking unload).

Obviously I'm talking about 20% armor debuff that is applied to the target. You'd have to be pretty thick not to work that out.

 

Mercs do incredible single target dps. And with 20% + 35% + bonus to cut through armor they get target flexibility other classes do not. Not only that, they buff everyone elses dps significantly. That is what a heavy armor range support class is meant to do. In return, if you get melee glued to you then you need to rely on your team to survive.

 

Don't cry because everyone doesn't agree with you. You just end up looking stupid.

Here's the thing champ! SInce this is a Merc Utility thread I have to assume your ArP comment is in refference to an Ability all Mercs can acquire...

So what I am getting from your arguement is that since Merc has considerably less ARP then PT( In the exact same spec even) and has A 5% mitigation hike from Heavy armor (Pt as well)...Which most classes get 3 to 5% mitigation from talents alone...That Mercs should have no further kiting, or utility as a ranged class? (keeping in Mind PT has a gap closer and a 100% chance to snare on an instant cast ability). Pretty odd that a Mellee oriented AC has more reliable kite skills then its ranged counterpart dont you think?

Insert need for Merc Disengage ability here.....

As for the High DPS comments about Merc...PT, and Sniper put up higher dmg then Merc period...there will always be the Player skill arguement sure. Start watching the players around you, make sure your not looking at PT numbers...Its common to see a Merc hit 300k dmg, Its way less common to see a Merc hit 400k, and 500k is just an exceptional mark.

PT, Sniper will much more commonly put up 350k to 550k dmg and be sure to watch kills...these numbers are not AoE fluff these numbers will be accompanied by high kill ratio's...

I never understood people who want to keep certain classes down...I dont think anyone on these forums truely Thinks Merc is OK if they have played one...and I dont see people asking for dmg, its always about utility so they can actually have an answer in PvP rather then just get out your dps before someone kills you.

I play a Jugg, My class is fine, Veng, and Rage Both have their places in PvP and PvE, and the tank tree is great in PvE...Well rounded great utility, very nice dmg, and if played well you can beat any class in the game, if they out play you its a loss...and thats how it should be. Merc this is not the case.

So try to drag Merc down all you want..it still needs help with utility.

P.S. I do have a 50 Merc he is full BM. I dont play him anymore he is now My Biochem bot. He has been shelved since the first set of dmg, and heat changes to the class, and will remain so until they are given some kiting, or just basic utility abilities. If it never happens its no sweat...I play Jugg regardless. But I would like to see the class get some love.

Absolutely, when you're not only buffing your own dps but the dps of every other class. The dps increase is worth half the difference between a tier of gear. That is huge.

 

 

 

I see you're problem. You're comparing yourself with a Sorc. That's hilarious.

 

We have 5 aoe attacks, 3 of which can be used while on the move, and two of which are spammable. That provides utility that other classes only dream of.

 

 

 

I can no longer take you seriously if you think BH knockbacks aren't a huge strength of the class. Try playing some other classes some time. You might appreciate what you have.

You mean like a Sorc which can talent a root on their KB? You realize Mercs dont have a root at all right? Ranged class..no root..its actually unheard of. Mercs have no interupt...Seems odd every other class does. Mercs only snares are actually trumped by their trigger mechanic leaving 1 second of actual snare after the GCD fires....Seems strange as well. If you really feel all these things are normal and fair then name something Mercs have that counters not having any of the above...Cause I just dont see it.

Im sorry but the small amount of Mitigation from armor just doesnt cut it...Especially since several classes get equal mitigation through talents with straight dmg mitigation..aka its never bypassed.

Thanks, Rassuro, for speaking to the methodology! I really wanted to find a way to PROVE one ability was better than another with something other than a story of what happens when....

This.

 

It is especially obvious how subjective this is when looking at the the PDF with explanations on where the numbers come from.

 

For example, you've given 4 points for stealth scan, which is mostly a PVP ability, and 5 points for combat rez, which is mostly a PVE ability.

You forgot to mention that I did freely and plainly claim that this one category was subjective.

So should we look at this from a PVE perspective or PVP? In my opinion you can't do both at the same time.

I agree with you here and I struggled with this myself. It's unfortunate that you've used the one stated "exception to the rule" - abilities in the Special Category - as your example, but I can deal:

First, the idea was compare like abilitiies with like: only one class has Stealth Scan. Combat Rez is exactly the same for all three classes therefore it scores the same for Mercs, Operatives and Sorcs. That's not subjective.

Second, when I started weight the utility of a whole category against another category I fell down a slippery slope regardless of whether it's in PvE or PvP. You're right Stealth Scan is much better than Combat Rez in PvP and maybe they do need to be situational for those exceptions but every other category started with a 5pt baseline. A Stun is not better than a Slow in every situation or for every class against every other class etc.. Stuns, Slows, Knockbacks, CC, Releases, Heals, Mitigation etc... all start with equal weight - 5 points.

Then you've given Agents 9 points for being able to mitigate max ~2k shieldable damage every 45 seconds, but only 3.5 points for being able to stun the target for 4 seconds every 45 seconds. I think many will agree that the second one is most of the time quite a bit more usable than the first, except for in PVE boss encounters (again, from which point of view was this created?).

This illustrates my methodology perfectly: an Agent's shield ability = 5 points, a stun ability = 5 points. When you compare the metrics of the agent's shield (how much dmg it can mitigate averaged to a 1 minute period) the shield scores 9, a sorc shield scores 15.5 and a Mara's Undying Rage scores 12.5. Same for stuns. That stun is 3.5 but Flashbang and Intimidating Roar both score 6.5 because modelling metrics they are better.

As I said, I don't see a way of mathematically ranking a shield against a stun without getting subjective, arbitrary and heavily situational. An assassins may scoff at your stun, break free and keep on pummeling but vanish and find a new target as soon as a shield goes up. There are literally thousands of these examples - the slippery slope.

Would really love someone to suggest a numerical way to get around this.

Also, while looking at Agents, it seems as though you've given Snipers 5 points for Escape, but because Lethality Operatives have the option to reduce the cooldown from 120s to 90s, you've lowered the points to 4.5 for them? Isn't that a bit backwards?

Yes!! Thanks for picking that up. It happens because a -1 point penalty is applied to an ability if you have to talent to get it or make it better. In some cases the "improvement" like reducing the cooldown doesn't outweigh the penalty. I tried to get rid of as many of these as possible as just model the untalented version of the ability. This one slipped through - so sorry about that! (Worth noting that situations like this are great for analysing the maths - is this a waste of a talent point or a problem with the modifiers?)

Regardless, we again get to why a table like this is flawed, the Escape ability is generally more useful for a melee Operative than what it is for a ranged Sniper.

I really don't mean to be rude, but this claim is far more subjective than my model. I'm not disputing it, but I'm not going to agree with it either. I play a sniper, I don't play an Operative and I can't in good conscience say that Escape is far more useful to one than the other in every situation, in PvP or PvE. and I can't find an argument based on metrics to support the claim.

Help me take the 'stories' and the "I was in a WZ once... " out of the argument and come up with a consistent and objective measure of an ability's worth. Attack my modifiers, point out inconsistencies and arithmetic errors - or develop a whole new premise! Making it PvP only is a great start!

why is the game designed so that PT Pyro has higher dps than Merc Pyro AND more utility?

Just want to point out that the model shows Mercs rank 10 and PT Pyro's are last at 16 on the utility list. Much of my article debates whether utility really is king in PvP.

So back to the thread subject, I would suggest you take the data you have and calculate a baseline for each attribute, and then use that to calculate a baseline for each class using positive and negative integers. So a balanced class would be close to zero, an UP class would be below zero, and an OP class would be above zero.

This is a really interesting idea. Can you elaborate a bit more on it?

I did calculate a baseline for each attribute which is published in the PDF, however the positive and negative modifiers I applied do always result in a positive number. Are you talking about just shifting the scale from 0-100 to -50 to +50 or something else?

You forgot to mention that I did freely and plainly claim that this one category was subjective!

The problem is the whole comparison is subjective. You're putting a number on opinion. Take evasion, which was raised as an example. If you play an operative in PVP you will know evasion is good for 1 thing: using right before vanish to remove dots, so that the dots don't pull you out of vanish. My subjective view of that as far as utility goes is a negative. -1 utility. It's an added layer on top of a core ability of the class, which itself is on an incredibly long cooldown. I've already raised why your valuing of 45 second HOTS is way out of whack.

You aren't proving anything. You're just putting a number to subjective opinion.

But here's the thing. Even if you accurately weight every bit of utility. The right result should have arsenal merc right down the bottom. Because they are a heavy armor high single target dps range class. Every other class *needs* more utility.

You forgot to mention that I did freely and plainly claim that this one category was subjective.

Sure, but it does not matter since the points you give in each category still have the same weight in the final score.

First, the idea was compare like abilitiies with like: only one class has Stealth Scan. Combat Rez is exactly the same for all three classes therefore it scores the same for Mercs, Operatives and Sorcs. That's not subjective.

I agree that it's not subjective in the way that all of the classes which have it scores the same for this ability, but it still is highly subjective how many points those classes should gain in comparison to other abilities.

That stun is 3.5 but Flashbang and Intimidating Roar both score 6.5 because modelling metrics they are better.

According to what metrics? Remember that you just invented all of this out of nothing, and all of these numbers are still completely subjective, regardless of what model you have decided to follow.

As I said, I don't see a way of mathematically ranking a shield against a stun without getting subjective, arbitrary and heavily situational.

I agree completely. Not everything can be solved in a spreadsheet, obviously.

I really don't mean to be rude, but this claim is far more subjective than my model.

You are correct in that the claim I made is subjective, but I very strongly disagree with your statement on which is "far more" subjective, and I think that the majority of people who play a melee DPS without a gap closer will agree with me. Again, your entire table is completely subjective, all of it.

In the end, I do not think that people shouldn't make the sort of analysis in the future, as I still feel like it is interesting, and there are probably a lot of people who can learn a lot from this about classes which they do not play.

I just wish that you wouldn't try to present these numbers as any kind of facts, as everything in your table is completely subjective, and I feel like your final numbers are not usable in any way.

In my opinion it would have been a lot better if you had completely removed all numbers and just presented the table with the different abilities.

According to what metrics? Remember that you just invented all of this out of nothing ...

I just wish that you wouldn't try to present these numbers as any kind of facts, as everything in your table is completely subjective, and I feel like your final numbers are not usable in any way.

I think you are being a tad bit harsh here.

Flash Bang stuns 5 targets for 8 secs at 10m range on a 60 sec CD but damage breaks it.

Debilitate stuns 1 target for 4 secs at 4m range and does 312-344 base damage.

These are the metrics I'm using: number of targets, duration of stun, range, length of cool down, breaks on damage. I did not invent them out of nothing - they are in the tool tip.

I get that you are questioning the bonuses and penalties I've applied based on these facts, but I think most people would agree a shorter cool down is better, a longer range is better, more targets is better, breaks on damage is worse, much worse. I'm sorry if you feel they are not usable in any way but I do, sincerely, want to thank you for your feedback. If I find myself with a spare year to assess the relevant value of a stun to one particular class over another I may well give it a go. Cheers!