Dear Bioware,

Im asking for some insight into your goal for Merc DPS. Not numbers etc..Simply what is you vision for the AC? Is Merc supposed to be a Burst DPS class? a sustained DPS class? I have a 50 Merc which was my first character I played Commando in Beta, and went to Merc in Live due to friends faction preference. Never in all that time was Merc DPS a strong 1v1 class, but had a strong role as a backline turret style Nuker...they had little mobility but if they stayed with the group in the backlines they could off heal a bit, and focus targets really well..

At that time Merc had a clear role for me. Now I am unsure where the class design is going. Thus far our DMG has been adjusted downward in burst capability, and our survivabilty has also been tuned downward with CD's being lengthened as well as flat out mitigation talents being halved.

We are a ranged AC yet we have no reliable way to kite other classes..its all RnG and for 2secs? By the time your GCD is up they are no longer snared??? was this intended?

So my question is...What is your vision of this classes role in a fight? When you envision playing a Merc What do you see?

This is really aimed at Arsenal spec...Pyro spec the role seems more clear to me, however Im not sure why all the low teir Ele dmg boosts were left for PT only, and they have 100% uptime on CGC not blowing massive Globals if you have bad luck. Merc is a lesser version of PT Pyro and I think thats pretty obvious no questions on that.

This is an honest question...since beta the Arsenal spec role is very blurry, and Pyro spec has been outshined by their opposing AC hence powertech pyro's are now preffered over Merc Pyro's. Seems like Merc doesnt have a place in competative PvP anymore...was this intentional?

Please remember this is a question about Merc DPS not the bodyguard tree. thanks.

As a Merc:Pyro player, I would also like to see a response to these issues, especially the ones that relate to the balance against PT: Pyro.

In regards to the PT vs Merc issues...

1.) PT's get an interrupt, allowing them to better handle healers. It's pretty much impossible for a Merc:Pyro to kill a healer.

2.) Flame Burst vs. Power Shot. The damage done is unbalanced, let alone FB being instant and PS having an activation time.

3.) Additionally, FB is a 100% chance per GCD to apply the burning DoT, and PS is a 0% chance. Mercs have to rely on spamming Rapid Shots due to a 36% chance per GCD to apply the same DoT. This would be fine, IF we had a talent that boosted our Rapid Shots damage to make up for the RNG factor.

4.) Both DPS Merc specs are essentially helpless against melee attackers, with no real way of kiting. Arsenal can't do meaningful damage while on the move. And even though Pyro can move, it lacks the defensive bonus that Arsenal has (Talent: Power Barrier), as well as kiting abilities. And don't call (Talent: Sweltering Heat) a kiting ability. One, it only lasts for 2 sec, which is essentially 1 GCD. Two, it only slows 50%. Three, remember that there is a less than 40% chance of Combustible Gas proccing? So even then, it isn't reliable. Finally, we have nothing to stop Warriors/Knights from charging/leaping back in on us, rooting us in place while they hack away.

I love the play style of my Merc:Pyro. I hate that it is a sub-par class. This spec in particular is lacking a lot of utility and/or damage output potential. When compared against other classes, it should be apparent that Merc DPS is behind in both the aforementioned areas. Some of our issues are shared across the trees, and some are unique, but they are still problematic. I am glad that Pyro FINALLY got a talent to make our Armor Pen equal to PT, but we still lack the control and damage capabilities of the other AC. As another poster here in the forums said, given the chance to switch AC's, I would go PT: Pyro in a heartbeat, but I do not wish to abandon the BH that I have spent so much time working on.

**addition**

Before anyone says

"..but [Jet Boost] lets you knock melee players away!?!"

Jet Boost's knock-back is subject to the significantly flawed Resolve system, so it is also not a dependable defensive and kiting ability.

I am glad that Pyro FINALLY got a talent to make our Armor Pen equal to PT

Merc Pyro armor penetration is still inferior to PT Pyro. I go through the mathematical detail here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=473088

I really want some feedback on what bioware plan to do with the mercenary/commando advanced classes. At the moment they are very viable in PvE (I don't think that is the issue anyone cares about but yeah just pointing that out) in any of their 3 specs.

As it stands I know there are a ton of complaints as to our viability in PvP, I really would like an answer from Bioware as to what will be done about the stalemate a lot of merc/commando PvPers find themselves in. I thoroughly feel that any and all specs should be viable in a PvP and PvE environment, if not, then why allow us to use them? As it stands Arsenal/Gunnery specs are just useless in PvP, Pyro/Assault is a half-way spec that does well, don't get me wrong, but compare it to a powertech/vanguard equivalent and we are just outclassed.

Please bioware find it in your hearts to at least give us as mercs/commandos an answer and at least let us know you plan to do something, ok?

I think my biggest point of Confusion is BW has "adjusted" our survivability AND our Burst Dmg potential over the last two major patches. I kind of feel like they over adjusted the class to the point of making us underperform in PvP. I would atleast like to know what the "vision" for the DPS specs includes so that I may decide against, or For further PvP progression for my Merc.

Arsenal for instance cannot kite effectively at all... But with the old KB CD's and the 10% (pre nerf) dmg reduction talent you could face tank for a couple seconds then place a well timed KB get a little more distance while getting off your 2 instant abilities, and then start a cast rotation, and use a stun if you get insta charged..... As it is now My KB's are on CD far to often to do this, I die extremely fast and cannot stand still with a melee anywhere near me, and healing really doesnt factor in because eveyone but Mercs have an interupt.... so getting off a heal is really just a good way to juke someone to interupt so you can get off a dps rotation.....

Merc Pyro is just straight inferior in designe to PT...Our RS proc is based off cast time abilities, our dog output is lower due to less AP, and less chance to proc CGC...not to mention trying to get CgC up can be a serious GCD nightmare...Its just not well thought out compared to PT.

I really want to know what the future of DPS Merc is...I love the BH class, have no desire to join the other large group in the newbie area leveling PT's and am not sure if its time to relegate my Merc to PvE only and not worry about trying to keep up with PvP gearing if the vision for the class is "Merc DPS is inline with our metric".....

Arsenal for instance cannot kite effectively at all... But with the old KB CD's and the 10% (pre nerf) dmg reduction talent you could face tank for a couple seconds then place a well timed KB get a little more distance while getting off your 2 instant abilities, and then start a cast rotation, and use a stun if you get insta charged..... As it is now My KB's are on CD far to often to do this, I die extremely fast and cannot stand still with a melee anywhere near me

 

Merc Pyro is just straight inferior in designe to PT...Our RS proc is based off cast time abilities, our dog output is lower due to less AP, and less chance to proc CGC...not to mention trying to get CgC up can be a serious GCD nightmare...Its just not well thought out compared to PT.

These are the puzzling issues. BW has flat come out and said that Snipers needed to be able to have some survivability vs melee by just staying put and duking it out when a melee approaches. So here you have an AC that does more dps than Arsenal AND has more close range survivability. Right now only idiots play Arsenal instead of Snipers.

Correspondingly PT Pyro is simply superior in every way to Merc Pyro in PvP. The numbers don't lie. You see a 20:1 ratio of PT/Vanguard dps to Merc dps in ranked warzones.

BW doesn't have anything it can say about these issues. They were warned this would happen - ranked warzones WILL be filled with the better classes. But they did nothing and this is the result. BW needs to simply acknowledge its error and allow Merc/Commando players to transfer to PT/Vanguard. That is the fix.

These are the puzzling issues. BW has flat come out and said that Snipers needed to be able to have some survivability vs melee by just staying put and duking it out when a melee approaches. So here you have an AC that does more dps than Arsenal AND has more close range survivability. Right now only idiots play Arsenal instead of Snipers.

 

Correspondingly PT Pyro is simply superior in every way to Merc Pyro in PvP. The numbers don't lie. You see a 20:1 ratio of PT/Vanguard dps to Merc dps in ranked warzones.

 

BW doesn't have anything it can say about these issues. They were warned this would happen - ranked warzones WILL be filled with the better classes. But they did nothing and this is the result. BW needs to simply acknowledge its error and allow Merc/Commando players to transfer to PT/Vanguard. That is the fix.

Well I play arsenal and I asure you I'm not an idiot. People play pyro because until 1.3 arsenal was really difficult to play with any success. Now it's ok for pvp. The plan truth is pyro is not that much better than arsenal now but arsenal can't shake it's bad wrap. People are hung up on the rotation... Everyone is so stuck on getting full HS and TL on targets before using HSM and RS. Although it's ideal to have full stacks of debuf on the target. it's a bad approach to try and cast 3 TMs on every target all the time. Barrage proc, RS TM and Sticky Dart give you a lot of on demand burst on their own and with partial debuff stacks.

Pyro just gives you better mobility but at the cost of burst. Arsenal gives you more burst at the cost of mobility. The play styles are just different enough that you can't simply switch and be successful you have to practice to be good at either one. At the end of the day BOTH specs are inferior to other class in PVP. Some other person said it best... "you have to put in 3x the effort to get the same results" The offensive Merc simply does not have to skills to do it's job well. We can't effectively stay at range and we can't absorbe damage for too long. My pyro Powertech seems to be tougher just standing there doing nothing, My maddness/healer sorc last much longer in a fight than my merc... and I could go on.

Merc either needs more defense, more roots, or some escape skill (or some combination of theses) before they are finally ballanced with the other classes. Right now everything a Merc does well, another class can do better.

Well I play arsenal and I asure you I'm not an idiot.

Don't take this too personally, but you are an idiot. As am I for persisting in playing my Merc Pyro. The only people left playing these inferior classes are those people such as you and I who are both too stubborn to change AND highly skilled with their toons. All the lesser players have left. Either to re-roll or to simply quit ToR. They may have been less skilled, but it appears they may have been smarter....

And it doesn't take 3x the effort to get the same result with these inferior classes. It takes 2x the skill. Which is a different concept. You get a top player in a good class, and NO amount of additional effort will make your Arsenal (or Merc Pyro) outperform that toon. Because no matter how good you are, you aren't twice as a good as the 2nd best player on the server.

If things stay the same (meaning they don't rebalance it) I think the fix to Target Tracking is really going to make a difference. I was amazed at how well I was able to take targets out with this fix put in. Does it change our survivability ... absolutely not. BUt it makes us better at our role... which IIMHO is a sniper. A sniper that has to pick the right targets kill... then move...

I wasn't getting to my HSM and rail shot on most kills last night. It's like they finally turned on our dps.

Don't take this too personally, but you are an idiot. As am I for persisting in playing my Merc Pyro. The only people left playing these inferior classes are those people such as you and I who are both too stubborn to change AND highly skilled with their toons. All the lesser players have left. Either to re-roll or to simply quit ToR. They may have been less skilled, but it appears they may have been smarter....

 

And it doesn't take 3x the effort to get the same result with these inferior classes. It takes 2x the skill. Which is a different concept. You get a top player in a good class, and NO amount of additional effort will make your Arsenal (or Merc Pyro) outperform that toon. Because no matter how good you are, you aren't twice as a good as the 2nd best player on the server.

Oops didn't see your response... First no... I'm not stubborn at all. I just like the arsenal play style. I have a soc and a vanguard and I simply like the Merc play-style better. I could replace my main toon at anytime I just choose not to because I like Mercs in this game. It's a hard class to play and I like the challenge. I also think arsenal now does a better job than pyro at picking one target and taking it out fast. I've played both specs extensively and I feel like I found a niche that fits my play style better (hit hard and fade, support the front line). I think the biggest problem mercs have had is that we are a support class... we still have issues but I think bioware is making changes so that we can play that support role better but this class is never going to be the staple of a team. I think people are hung up on that... but if it's played well I think it can still be a game changeer in that support role.

Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer): First, as to whether or not they're operating close to what we envision, the answer is "depends who the operator is." From the videos, logs, and anecdotes players provide us, it's really very much the answer for all specs - some people "get it" and play it to its potential, and some people don't. Frequently, the ones who "don't" are hitting brick walls because their expectations for what a spec should be like or should be capable of are different than what the spec is designed for.

No, no, NO. Skill has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE.

Decide what you want the class to do, and then design the class around that philosophy in a way that keeps the balance of it's weaknesses and strengths at zero sum. It's really that simple.

BTW Phrase, where did you get that quote, Twitter? Ask the Devs? I'd like to reply to that quote in person.

Edit: Found it.

In answer to the OPs question, it looks like we got some sort of an oblique answer at least...So it seems the PEBKAC and L2P responses aren't so far off. Couple that with this (although it refers to Deception Sins, it could easily refer to both DPS trees of Merc).

The devs response was clearly (he stated it directly) with respect to Assassins. Not BH. In contrast, BW devs have on multiple occasions come out and said that Merc gameplay was so simple that too many players could excel at it, and that was part of the rationale for nerfing Mercs.

The problem now is that simply from a comparison of best practices gameplay, Merc dps SUCKS. Combined damage/protection/healing numbers from top players lags behind that of PT Pyro by about 25%. And behind Sorc dps by even more. Now with Sorc dps, one can at least make a semi-rational excuse for that gap - Sorcs are quite flimsy. But PT Pyros have better damage output, better burst damage output, better utility AND better survivability. And if a dev thinks this is a L2P issue, then I suggest he hop on a Merc and duel any of a dozen top PTs on various servers. He won't win a single duel.

With respect to that ancient video (Jedi Knight vs. Bounty Hunter), you'll note a couple of things. First The Jedi Knight's leap doesn't root the BH. That was how the game played in 1.0. That's not how the game plays now. Moreover, the Jedi Knight's actions just generally represent how people played (misplayed) early in the game's history. Note how the Jedi Knight never uses Pacify. Leg Slash? This Jedi Knight had never heard of it. Put up his defensive shields? Nah. Clearly the video was made for marketing purposes, but you get the clear feeling that melee pilots have finally learned how to "fly" their toons at the edge of their flight envelope. And once they learned to do that, they have left Mercs in the dust.

After the Q&A topics I suspect we will not hear anything about Merc. This would have been the perfect time to field a question on Merc, and it was left out. Merc Utility problems seem to be a huge topic atm, not quite as common as the Nerf PT threads but still a pretty high profile discussion.

I support the idea that Merc needs an interupt, a root, and a real snare...not one that is a 1 sec snare after you root yourself to cast it, and blow a gcd...or an RnG snare that you blow several gcd's and if unlucky will never apply it in a fight.

Honestly Mercs just need a way to kite, and an interupt simply because they are the only one without it...and there is no reason for that.

Mercenary

If the best defense is a good offense, the Mercenary’s got the most intimidating defense in the galaxy. Heavily-modded blasters and deadly heatseeking missiles make the Mercenary a mobile heavy weapons platform. There’s no problem extra firepower can’t solve, and no one who knows what he’s doing gets between a Mercenary and his target.

I linked this in the PVP forum as well but it applies to this thread more so.

This is Bioware's Class Synopsis from the Holonet.

quite simply heatseeking missiles or thermal detonator are not what Bioware intended them to be i.e deadly.

The biggest issue I think with Arsenal/Gunnery is that everything in that tree works off Tracer Missile/Grav Round. It increases your defense, puts an armor debuff on targets, increases damage on your High Impact Bolt/RailShot, and the 31 talent's damage is boosted by the debuff it creates.

Hence people yell TM Spam, the problem is that's what they need to do to set up their damage! What if as you go up in the tree other abilities put tracer locks on a target. Let's say Heat Seaker Missle leaves 1 tracer lock upon application, or Unload when Barrage procs for its cool down to go away that Unload creates a Tracer lock as well. And powershot also gives a tracer lock.

TM/Grav Round will be the most "damage" per application for their debuff, but with other skills able to proc the debuff, it might promote more mobility or at least other abilities can be used if TM is interrupted.

The biggest issue I think with Arsenal/Gunnery is that everything in that tree works off Tracer Missile/Grav Round. It increases your defense, puts an armor debuff on targets, increases damage on your High Impact Bolt/RailShot, and the 31 talent's damage is boosted by the debuff it creates.

 

Hence people yell TM Spam, the problem is that's what they need to do to set up their damage! What if as you go up in the tree other abilities put tracer locks on a target. Let's say Heat Seaker Missle leaves 1 tracer lock upon application, or Unload when Barrage procs for its cool down to go away that Unload creates a Tracer lock as well. And powershot also gives a tracer lock.

 

TM/Grav Round will be the most "damage" per application for their debuff, but with other skills able to proc the debuff, it might promote more mobility or at least other abilities can be used if TM is interrupted.

Just an FYI BW at one point agreed with you and said they were going to take that spec away from tracer spam....They then changed very little but nerfed tracer dmg, and its still spammed....So another note Tracer Missle is actaully not the highest dmg attack...HSM, and Unload, and RS hit harder now adays in that spec.

I have to say Im kinda mystified that none of the threads concerning Merc design viability achieved Dev. response. Not even a "Merc is currently meeting our design expactations" or whatever that generic statement is they like to toss out.

Probably to busy realizing they destroyed class balance in both PVP and PVE to respond. So many classes/specs that need to be re-vitalized for both aspects of the game.

Probably to busy realizing they destroyed class balance in both PVP and PVE to respond. So many classes/specs that need to be re-vitalized for both aspects of the game.

We seriously need to really fire up posts on the Stickied "Merc class feedback" post...lets try to get something rolling here. Its up to us to force a change here.