Each of the Legacy of the Force writers had their Bias towards characters, we all see it. It's hard to put any of the characters on one standing, but to be honest, here, i'd go Sidious.

One of the biggest problems with post-ROTJ is the writers. The number of writers to be precise. You get conflicting personalities, inconsistent abilities, etc.

One of the biggest problems with post-ROTJ is the writers. The number of writers to be precise. You get conflicting personalities, inconsistent abilities, etc.

Zahn is the only really consistent EU writer. It's kinda sad.

One of the biggest problems with post-ROTJ is the writers. The number of writers to be precise. You get conflicting personalities, inconsistent abilities, etc.

Too many cooks spoil the broth!

Well how fast is Kyle?

And really I think there is a direct correlation between speed and Force ability - which simplifies the problem.

Considering he is a Battlemaster I'd assume him to be impressive, at the very least it demonstrates Caedus to be considerably superior to your above average Jed.

 

And really I think there is a direct correlation between speed and Force ability - which simplifies the problem.

You know what happens when we start assuming things Beni. Anyway still gonna wait on actual speed feats for Caedus...that are consistant.

You know what happens when we start assuming things Beni. Anyway still gonna wait on actual speed feats for Caedus...that are consistant.

Won't ever happen, because you can never rely on EU authors to be consistent.

Won't ever happen, because you can never rely on EU authors to be consistent.

Perhaps not for LotF, considering as it's said...powers n bias n all that were all over the place. But there is consistency within some of the EU.

Perhaps not for LotF, considering as it's said...powers n bias n all that were all over the place. But there is consistency within some of the EU.

Let me rephrase that: much of the stuff between the two Thrawn series and a lot of the New Jedi Order bit (except the Vong war stuff) is pretty much contradictory.

And don't even start me on Derpyshyn.

Let me rephrase that: much of the stuff between the two Thrawn series and a lot of the New Jedi Order bit (except the Vong war stuff) is pretty much contradictory.

 

And don't even start me on Derpyshyn.

As bad as the LotF novels? But don't worry I won't. Well you're gonna have inconsistancy sure, but it's not gonna be everywhere is what I'm saying.

Zahn is the only really consistent EU writer. It's kinda sad.

No he is not.

He may have once been a consistent author, but now he just favors his oc's and makes establish characters look dumb to do it.

I think John Jackson Miller and James Luceno are better EU authors.

Back on topic:

Darth Sidious would wipe the floor with Jacen, who I will remind everyone got kneecaped by Mandolorens who didn't kill him because Bobba Fett told them not to. That's it no other reason, nothing Caedus did saved him self. He also got pinned to a chair when Luke was mad at him. He is a joke villain, who never committed to the darkside. He would be destroyed if he went up against a real Sith Lord.

Darth Sidious would wipe the floor with Jacen, who I will remind everyone got kneecaped by Mandolorens who didn't kill him because Bobba Fett told them not to. That's it no other reason, nothing Caedus did saved him self. He also got pinned to a chair when Luke was mad at him. He is a joke villain, who never committed to the darkside. He would be destroyed if he went up against a real Sith Lord.

His immense powers as Dark Lord of the Sith who was pretty much unofficially the last member of the rule of two says otherwise.

His immense powers as Dark Lord of the Sith who was pretty much unofficially the last member of the rule of two says otherwise.

Who Jacen? He was never part of the Sith, he was just there to draw attention away from Darth Krayt.

What power did he have as a Sith? No really what did he do? Create force storms that rend space? Kill someone from across the galaxy?

He did a bit of battle meditation. But nothing special and even that tired him out something fierce.

He was also dumb. Palps could run rings around him politically and mentally.

Who Jacen? He was never part of the Sith, he was just there to draw attention away from Darth Krayt.

 

What power did he have as a Sith? No really what did he do? Create force storms that rend space? Kill someone from across the galaxy?

 

He did a bit of battle meditation. But nothing special and even that tired him out something fierce.

 

He was also dumb. Palps could run rings around him politically and mentally.

You clearly have never even bothered to read about him properly.

Darth Caedus was incredibly powerful in a time when power had an entirely new measuring stick to match up to.

Though he was not proficient in the more esoteric and ancient powers of the Dark Side, he was still extremely powerful in all other aspects, whether it be in the Force, Lightsaber combat or other theatres of power.

He was so skilled in Battle Meld he turned the minds of seventeen Jedi into one cohesive hive-mind that he was the focus of, he could project false Force Presences at will, his Healing Trance saved others from death, including himself and was so advanced at healing his own body that he could freely manipulate his own body in any way he needed.

He had gotten so powerful in the force during the Vong War that when he achieved Oneness, he was the most powerful being in the entirety of recorded history, becoming closer to the Force than anything ever had before.

His Tutaminis was incredibly powerful, to the point of absorbing force based attacks(Including Grand Master Luke Skywalker's) and redirecting them.

His knowledge of the force deepened as a Jedi during the Vong War to the point of being able to discharge green Force Lightning that instantly paralysed his Vong opponents.

His ability to cloak himself in the Force was unrivalled to the point of cutting himself off from the force to the bear minimum of connections, he could even change what other force sensitives could sense when searching for him through the Force, even including his Uncle.

His ability with Mind Control was extremely powerful, even being able to totally block off sections of his mind so as to be unreadable by any one, even his Uncle.

He even learnt the ability to Teleport things across considerable distances.

He could even see the Past and the Future and what either would be depending on the parameters he himself set on them, allowing him extremely accurate depictions of the future.

He also had the ability to cause discharges in the spinal cords of even some of the most powerful of opponents, paralysing them till he relented.

He also wielded the ability to summon illusions, so powerful that it was extremely convincing and often impossible to judge whether it was reality or illusion and could even allow the viewer's mind to decide whom the projection was and using their mind itself to convince them, this ability eventually allowed him to breach into a victim's mind and force his own will upon it, effectively making them puppets.

He could use Force Sever on some of the most powerful Force Users of his time, as well as restore the connection he'd taken away, at will.

As a Sith Lord his Force Lightning could morph opponents until the point where species identification became nearly impossible, his use of Force Choke was also incredible, with the ability to use it on multiple powerful Jedi Knights at once, breaching all of their force barriers.

His Sith Battle Meditation was also very impressive, allowing his forces to fight against extremely overwhelming odds, turning extreme losses into victories with ease.

He eventually developed the ability to use the Force at such high degrees it was not safe for his body, allowing him unlimited power in short spurts and he was incredibly proficient in this ability, especially after his moment of oneness.

His mastery over Force Speed was particularly impressive allowing him to not only make Battlemaster Kyle Katarn look like a youngling, he even injured his Uncle severely in lightsaber combat and was so fast it caught Luke off guard and because of it, Luke nearly lost his right arm, if that doesn't show absolute mastery over Force Speed and lightsaber combat, what the hell does, because he's effectively fought a far more powerful version of Luke than the one that faced Reborn Palpatine, using the measuring stick of Luke Skywalker, he was a faster duellist than Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Darth Caedus has faced the two most powerful Jedi of the entire post-ROTJ era, Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo, against Skywalker he managed to put up a tremendous fight and almost took off Luke's arm in a burst of speed.

His first engagement against Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach, he still took off one of her arms and managed to force wave her into a wall and still carried on, if he had chosen, he could have killed her, he chose otherwise.

You clearly have never even bothered to read about him properly.

 

Darth Caedus was incredibly powerful in a time when power had an entirely new measuring stick to match up to.

 

Though he was not proficient in the more esoteric and ancient powers of the Dark Side, he was still extremely powerful in all other aspects, whether it be in the Force, Lightsaber combat or other theatres of power.

 

He was so skilled in Battle Meld he turned the minds of seventeen Jedi into one cohesive hive-mind that he was the focus of, he could project false Force Presences at will, his Healing Trance saved others from death, including himself and was so advanced at healing his own body that he could freely manipulate his own body in any way he needed.

 

He had gotten so powerful in the force during the Vong War that when he achieved Oneness, he was the most powerful being in the entirety of recorded history, becoming closer to the Force than anything ever had before.

 

His Tutaminis was incredibly powerful, to the point of absorbing force based attacks(Including Grand Master Luke Skywalker's) and redirecting them.

 

His knowledge of the force deepened as a Jedi during the Vong War to the point of being able to discharge green Force Lightning that instantly paralysed his Vong opponents.

 

His ability to cloak himself in the Force was unrivalled to the point of cutting himself off from the force to the bear minimum of connections, he could even change what other force sensitives could sense when searching for him through the Force, even including his Uncle.

 

His ability with Mind Control was extremely powerful, even being able to totally block off sections of his mind so as to be unreadable by any one, even his Uncle.

 

He even learnt the ability to Teleport things across considerable distances.

 

He could even see the Past and the Future and what either would be depending on the parameters he himself set on them, allowing him extremely accurate depictions of the future.

 

He also had the ability to cause discharges in the spinal cords of even some of the most powerful of opponents, paralysing them till he relented.

 

He also wielded the ability to summon illusions, so powerful that it was extremely convincing and often impossible to judge whether it was reality or illusion and could even allow the viewer's mind to decide whom the projection was and using their mind itself to convince them, this ability eventually allowed him to breach into a victim's mind and force his own will upon it, effectively making them puppets.

 

He could use Force Sever on some of the most powerful Force Users of his time, as well as restore the connection he'd taken away, at will.

 

As a Sith Lord his Force Lightning could morph opponents until the point where species identification became nearly impossible, his use of Force Choke was also incredible, with the ability to use it on multiple powerful Jedi Knights at once, breaching all of their force barriers.

 

His Sith Battle Meditation was also very impressive, allowing his forces to fight against extremely overwhelming odds, turning extreme losses into victories with ease.

 

He eventually developed the ability to use the Force at such high degrees it was not safe for his body, allowing him unlimited power in short spurts and he was incredibly proficient in this ability, especially after his moment of oneness.

 

His mastery over Force Speed was particularly impressive allowing him to not only make Battlemaster Kyle Katarn look like a youngling, he even injured his Uncle severely in lightsaber combat and was so fast it caught Luke off guard and because of it, Luke nearly lost his right arm, if that doesn't show absolute mastery over Force Speed and lightsaber combat, what the hell does, because he's effectively fought a far more powerful version of Luke than the one that faced Reborn Palpatine, using the measuring stick of Luke Skywalker, he was a faster duellist than Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

Darth Caedus has faced the two most powerful Jedi of the entire post-ROTJ era, Luke Skywalker and Jaina Solo, against Skywalker he managed to put up a tremendous fight and almost took off Luke's arm in a burst of speed.

 

His first engagement against Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach, he still took off one of her arms and managed to force wave her into a wall and still carried on, if he had chosen, he could have killed her, he chose otherwise.

I read Legacy of the Force.

In which the Sith describe him as a distraction.

Woo, hiding in plain site

If only Palps didn't do that for over a decade, rather then say a few months. I would be impressed.

When did Sith Jacen use that? would have been helpful after he got kneecaped (didn't he have to get a knee replacement, or did he just have one on hand when he spoke to Fett's Granddaughter)

Yeah, he was. As in past tense, he no longer has that power. (One could argue that his attempt to get that back lead him into darkness)

You assume that 1. The clone Palps was better then Emperor, 2. That Luke put the same effort into killing the two of them. Also didn't Jacen lose to Luke? Due to being stabbed in the back. Something he should have sensed.

Luke is very powerful. Jaina is not. She has never been shown as being a 'great and powerful jedi'. She was a good fighter but not the best. In NJO she was as much Fighter Pilot as Jedi. I think you confused, Jaina still has both her arms. Although the fact that the jedi 'fooled' him ( and continued to think that) should how threatening he was. Given that they tricked him very well in Furry ( My Cape has betrayed ME!). Palps outsmarted every sentient he came up against.

Just accept that Jacen is a bad Sith and Caedus is a dumb idea. He was never cool and he was only a little bit threatening.

Sorry but your post stinks of bias, you have practically ignored almost the entirety of my post and instead have only nitpicked times where he wasn't a completely perfect boringly over-powered Sith like most of the big fish Dark Lords are.

If you dislike him simply say so, don't just shove your opinion into a post and claim it's fact.

Just accept that Jacen is a bad Sith and Caedus is a dumb idea. He was never cool and he was only a little bit threatening.

*slow clap*

Necro lol.

In all seriousness this has always been a battle that interests me more than any other in regards to Sidious I genuinely think besides GM Luke that Caedus is the only who can legitimately challenge and threaten RotS Palps without amps, etc..

So again I'm reviving this thread, so we can get down to a winner here, which would have interesting repercussions.

Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach, he still took off one of her arms and managed to force wave her into a wall and still carried on, if he had chosen, he could have killed her, he chose otherwise.

I have no interest in the Caedus/Sidious debate but I do want to say that the underlined did not happen. Jaina never lost an appendage in battle against Caedus or any opponent up through the LOF novels. I haven't read beyond the LOF series.

I'm not sure if that was a typo on your part?

Jaina Solo showed he was far beyond her, even injured as he was, she got absolutely dismantled and she only managed to kill him because he frankly wasn't paying her much attention and was severely injured, with one arm gone, one crippled leg and a hole through his stomach,

That's not entirely accurate description of the fight in my opinion. She only sustained a broken arm, and a lightsaber gash to the abdomen. She was also thrown into the wall a couple of times.

Caedus on the other hand actually did want to kill her quickly, but was unable to. When he sees her in front of him and takes a lightsaber to the stomach before he can blink. he's completely focused on his own survival.

The problem for him was that he lost the fight before it started. Jaina overwhelmed him with her relentless assault and, yes, her skill as a cunning combatant.

He opened the incinerator door and Jaina was waiting for him on the other side of the door and he takes his first (but not last) fatal blow of the fight. Either she masked her force presence or he was clueless when it came to sensing danger.

Caedus takes a lightsaber to the stomach as the fight begins.

He then tries force lightning attacks which fail. Jaina blocked and dodge them.

They traded a few physical blows before she impales his face on "half a dozen" syringes down to the barrels, and slices his calf tendon crippling him.

She went for a guaranteed killing blow even though it left her open a fatal retaliatory blow as well. Jaina knew this and didn't care. She wasn't concerned with her own survival, just achieving her goal of killing her brother.

Note, he couldn't stop her from landing the killing blow, and he certainly wanted to.

So even though he could have killed her with his last ounce of strength, he still completely failed to stop her from outright killing him. He chose to put his last bit of energy into a psychic warning meant for Tenel Ka.

The author Troy Denning makes it clear in the novel Jaina outright defeats and kills him. Caedus wanted to kill her quickly so he could go after Allana, but Jaina's onslaught simply overwhelmed him despite his superior command of the force.

You have entirely missed the part where his only concern the whole time was stopping his daughter and the mother of his child from being killed via poison and repeatedly attempts to just ragdoll her and get out of the fight.

His focus was off completely and not once, not twice, not thrice but four times does he attempt to end the engagement and leave, leaving himself open to attack, he also unless you forgot was already injured before he even took the abdomen impalement.

He was absolutely off his game here and still nearly killed her on five occasions.

You have entirely missed the part where his only concern the whole time was stopping his daughter and the mother of his child from being killed via poison and repeatedly attempts to just ragdoll her and get out of the fight.

No, I didn't. I actually just reread the fight. I'd say you're overestimating his distraction. His goal was to end the fight fast to go save his daughter. Caedus couldn't do it, so he tried to reason with her and failed, then he makes a break for the door and fails.

nearly killed her on five occasions.

Nearly is not the same as actually doing it. She didn't "nearly" kill him. She actually did, and he couldn't stop her from doing so, despite the life of his daughter being at stake.

Like I said, I found your description of the events completely inaccurate, and I stand by that.

Your description makes it sound like Caedus was having a bad day and wasn't actually trying to fight for his life. He was, and lost, due to her skill and the savage nature of her attack.

not once, not twice, not thrice but four times does he attempt to end the engagement and leave,

I counted twice. Once when he made for the door (no force speed Caedus?), and once when he tried to reason with her. Both attempts happen after he had already realized he was dead and dying.

he also unless you forgot was already injured before he even took the abdomen impalement.

No, I did not. Injured hand, but sith and jedi often fight at disadvantages. He still had superior strength in the force, size, and strength advantage. A superior force user can still overcome an opponent who is better with a lightsaber. The only force attacks he utilized in the fight were force push and force lighting. I find that sort of curious, actually. Bad writing perhaps?

At full strength he still nearly lost to Mara, the mandalorians, and he did lose to Luke.

I believe you're overestimating Caedus, and underestimating Jaina.

But to each their own. Based on his actual written performances in duels, I find him a bit overrated. He was still formidable, but overrated nonetheless.

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Either way, I've said all I care to say on the matter. The written word is there in the book for people to read and decide for themselves.

You have a nice day.