https://imgur.com/a/bFjKHZ5

I mean even dot specs doing LESS lol. Burst spec isn't supposed to do 13-15k dps and 52k + hits, this is just INSANE. Literally no chances against two pts guarding each other.

https://imgur.com/a/bFjKHZ5

 

I mean even dot specs doing LESS lol. Burst spec isn't supposed to do 13-15k dps and 52k + hits, this is just INSANE. Literally no chances against two pts guarding each other.

You hit on two points here though, is the issue the damage or the guard?

I think they should have the top burst frankly due to lack of utility, DCDs, and other tools other classes take for granted.

But the guard issue, well thats another subject.

Guard is as it stands mindless... click and forget, literally nothing else in the game is as simple. This for me is the real issue. I dont have a problem with some of the guard mechanics that apply temporary protections and such, but the main toggle is problematic from a dps class.

I personally think it should have a timer when in dps spec, lasting lets say 15-30 seconds, whereas in tank spec fine leave the toggle mechanism.

Its something that should be managed when not in an actual tank spec, like any other temporary buff. It being permanent is the problem IMO.

You hit on two points here though, is the issue the damage or the guard?

I think they should have the top burst frankly due to lack of utility, DCDs, and other tools other classes take for granted.

But the guard issue, well thats another subject.

Guard is as it stands mindless... click and forget, literally nothing else in the game is as simple. This for me is the real issue. I dont have a problem with some of the guard mechanics that apply temporary protections and such, but the main toggle is problematic from a dps class.

I personally think it should have a timer when in dps spec, lasting lets say 15-30 seconds, whereas in tank spec fine leave the toggle mechanism.

Its something that should be managed when not in an actual tank spec, like any other temporary buff. It being permanent is the problem IMO.

Dps guarding is another issue. Dps guarding must be reworked too yet iam talking about ap pt dps since skilled lethality operatives and dot sorcs with full 306 gear and best augments doing 13-15k dps against 3-4 meele team (which is ok for a dot spec considering lack of burst) yet ap pt is doing same overall dps PLUS 52+k hits which is far from normal. How can a burst class do single target 15k dps + frequent big bursts? ?? Thats literally insane dps

Well i dont really agree, it must do over the top burst due to lack of other tools otherwise it has no chance.

Also i kind of feel like you keep bringing new variables to the conversation. Team comps change a lot of things, 2 guards among them is silly especially when the other has none for example.

Bottom line here is that you cant gut PT burst without killing the class right now, its all it offers. Its far from being the worst problem regardless. Deal with the others, then well talk

Well i dont really agree, it must do over the top burst due to lack of other tools otherwise it has no chance.

Also i kind of feel like you keep bringing new variables to the conversation. Team comps change a lot of things, 2 guards among them is silly especially when the other has none for example.

Bottom line here is that you cant gut PT burst without killing the class right now, its all it offers. Its far from being the worst problem regardless. Deal with the others, then well talk

Of course a team with two dps which can guard and a healer will win a team with only 1 guarding dps and a healer because this game is unfair giving some dps specs full 50% guard which makes them same as tanks in games with healers while they can still do damage as dps specs but AP PT is doing 13-15k DAMAGE PER SECOND AS A BURST SPEC which iS FAR FROM NORMAL because even for a dot/aoe spec it is hard to get such numbers against a stacking team and ap pt still has HIS BURST.

Instead of buffing ap pt dps they should have buffed its defenses a bit which was really needed for pvp

um, on the one hand, a dps guarding is hardly as survivable as a tank. Otherwise, why would anyone be playing say, tank guardians, when they could be doing more damage with the same survivability and protection potential as a tank, while playing say vigi or focus?

On the other hand, I really don't care if dps lose guard. Maybe then I can get an actual anti focus tool as a dps guardian.

um, on the one hand, a dps guarding is hardly as survivable as a tank. Otherwise, why would anyone be playing say, tank guardians, when they could be doing more damage with the same survivability and protection potential as a tank, while playing say vigi or focus?

 

On the other hand, I really don't care if dps lose guard. Maybe then I can get an actual anti focus tool as a dps guardian.

in games with healer they are survivible as tanks, it's much easiers for healers to outheal two dps who guard each other which makes enemies to swap between targets instead of sitting on one target all the time than to outheal a single zerged target which will have his hp dropped and defenses used up pretty fast. Double guard team always has an advantage over a single guard team in heal fights

in games with healer they are survivible as tanks, it's much easiers for healers to outheal two dps who guard each other which makes enemies to swap between targets instead of sitting on one target all the time than to outheal a single zerged target which will have his hp dropped and defenses used up pretty fast. Double guard team always has an advantage over a single guard team in heal fights

There are two different issues here: Double guard vs dps survivability as compared to tanks.

I am comparing tank survivability using guard to dps survivability using guard. My tank has more DCDs, better passive resistance, and an ability to shield attacks. This means he is better equipped to handle the increased incoming damage due to guard. Guard is not a 50% DR for the person its on; the player doing the guarding takes increased damage as well. Ergo, the higher health, better DCDs, better passive resistance, and ability to shield attacks makes my tank handle the increased incoming damage better than a dps would be able to. Otherwise, explain to me how a dps using guard has the same survivability as a tank, considering all the factors I just outlined. This is true with or without a healer. Because of the survivability increase, guarding as a tank is arguably more mindless than guarding as a dps. And it's the primary function of the spec, where a dps has to be primarily worried about his dps throughput as well.

Double guard on a team and no guard in the other is a matchmaking/population issue that has little to do with tank vs dps guard.

I conclude that my dps guardian cannot guard as effectively as my tank because of the lack of survivability. What my dps can do with the same degree of effectiveness as a tank is taunt. This is a flat DR to anyone that's not you, is off the GCD, and has no repercussions to its use as a dps.

Why no complaints about taunt?

All that said, and I repeat, if taking guard away from my dps for whatever silly reason you say means it can get actual utility in the form of an antifocus tool and/or rescaled FD, I'm fine with it.

They just need to remove guard from dps specs, problem solved.

PT damage is balanced because they have only 2 defensive cooldown while other classes has 5+.

If you nerf their damage you gotta give them more defenses to survive.

There are two different issues here: Double guard vs dps survivability as compared to tanks.

 

I am comparing tank survivability using guard to dps survivability using guard. My tank has more DCDs, better passive resistance, and an ability to shield attacks. This means he is better equipped to handle the increased incoming damage due to guard. Guard is not a 50% DR for the person its on; the player doing the guarding takes increased damage as well. Ergo, the higher health, better DCDs, better passive resistance, and ability to shield attacks makes my tank handle the increased incoming damage better than a dps would be able to. Otherwise, explain to me how a dps using guard has the same survivability as a tank, considering all the factors I just outlined. This is true with or without a healer. Because of the survivability increase, guarding as a tank is arguably more mindless than guarding as a dps. And it's the primary function of the spec, where a dps has to be primarily worried about his dps throughput as well.

 

Double guard on a team and no guard in the other is a matchmaking/population issue that has little to do with tank vs dps guard.

 

I conclude that my dps guardian cannot guard as effectively as my tank because of the lack of survivability. What my dps can do with the same degree of effectiveness as a tank is taunt. This is a flat DR to anyone that's not you, is off the GCD, and has no repercussions to its use as a dps.

 

Why no complaints about taunt?

 

All that said, and I repeat, if taking guard away from my dps for whatever silly reason you say means it can get actual utility in the form of an antifocus tool and/or rescaled FD, I'm fine with it.

I didn't say it must be removed, i think it must be nerfed. Not 50% but 25%. Or while guarding dps who guards receives a debuff which reduces his damage done by certain % or forces his force/heat drop very fast while guarding. It would be fair considering that those dps classes which can offheal can do only 2-3k hps while healers doing 9-10k+. So why dps specs can guard on all 50%?

IN heal games it is unreal to win a team with two dps guarding each other while another team has no double guard

They just need to remove guard from dps specs, problem solved.

 

PT damage is balanced because they have only 2 defensive cooldown while other classes has 5+.

If you nerf their damage you gotta give them more defenses to survive.

This is easy to say, but, i think it adds a nice mechanic personally so i dont mind it being there, i mind it being set and forget. It should be something that have to manage, a choice to make, something that costs them a GCD to use.

Let it last for 10-15 seconds at most before needing to be re-applied when in dps spec, similar to other defensive cooldown or bubbles etc.. that solves the problem for me. It has to be managed and be a choice to be made where they arent just setting it and doing thier own rotation.

When i choose to off heal, im not doing dps, when a sorc bubble someone, its time spent not doing their own skills ... if this works in similar fashion its a non issue as far as im concerned.

I didn't say it must be removed, i think it must be nerfed. Not 50% but 25%. Or while guarding dps who guards receives a debuff which reduces his damage done by certain % or forces his force/heat drop very fast while guarding. It would be fair considering that those dps classes which can offheal can do only 2-3k hps while healers doing 9-10k+. So why dps specs can guard on all 50%?

 

IN heal games it is unreal to win a team with two dps guarding each other while another team has no double guard

That replies to none of the points I made. Could you at least respond to the issues i raised? Obviously if I don't care if they remove it, I don't care if they nerf it for dps specs, I think that should have been obvious even to you. So I'm not even arguing that point with you. As long as they don't mess with how guard works for tanks, frankly, they can do whatever nonsense they want, particularly if it comes with something actually useful.

You did not comment on the point I raised about effectiveness, just repeated the same thing you said before, for which I provided you with a counter point. Yes, off healing is less effective than actual healing. I pointed out that off guarding was too, because the survivability is lower when guarding (not to mention that the dps specs of tank capable classes, outside of double cloaking deception sins, which cant guard effectively while out of combat to heal, are already squishy anyway).

When you said the essence of "but no its not!" I pointed out why - my tank guardian has additional DCDs, greater DR and DR based passives, greater health pool, and an ability to shield incoming attacks. You never responded to this point, except you're back repeating yourself. Obviously I read it before or I would not have bothered coming up with a counterpoint. So I repeat my question to you - if guardian dps are in fact "just as survivable" (which in my opinion is utter poppycock), counter my reasoning as laid out here. How are dps specs, despite the lower number and effectiveness of DCDs, the lack of passive DR and DR based passives (i.e. riposte and blade storm buffs for guardians), smaller health pool (depending on gearing), and the inability to shield "just as survivable"?

You also did not address my point about double guard vs no guard. I said this was (like merc stacking, sin stacking, or operative stacking, or whatever else we're screaming about now) a matchmaking issue primarily. If dps guarding is truly that effective, tell them it needs to be a factor in matchmaking.

And you also did not comment on my point about taunting. Dps cannot guard as effectively as tanks owing to dying faster from the increased incoming damage (please tell me I dont need to remind you that guard is not a damage reduction tool, it's a damage redirection tool. My tank then, can effectively mitigate that damage with his better DCDs and DR. My dps uses those faster and then has nothing left to protect himself). Taunt works identically for both, and yet, despite your faulty opinion that guard works the same, you aren't complaining about the thing that actually does work the same. Why is that?

Please respond to the issues and points I raised rather than continue to whine the same thing over and over when I have already provided a counter argument to it. And again, if I do not care if they remove guard, I obviously don't care if they nerf it, with the qualifier that the nerf only applies to dps specs, and I am provided some form of compensation to make up for the lost utility.

That replies to none of the points I made. Could you at least respond to the issues i raised? Obviously if I don't care if they remove it, I don't care if they nerf it for dps specs, I think that should have been obvious even to you. So I'm not even arguing that point with you. As long as they don't mess with how guard works for tanks, frankly, they can do whatever nonsense they want, particularly if it comes with something actually useful.

 

You did not comment on the point I raised about effectiveness, just repeated the same thing you said before, for which I provided you with a counter point. Yes, off healing is less effective than actual healing. I pointed out that off guarding was too, because the survivability is lower when guarding (not to mention that the dps specs of tank capable classes, outside of double cloaking deception sins, which cant guard effectively while out of combat to heal, are already squishy anyway).

 

When you said the essence of "but no its not!" I pointed out why - my tank guardian has additional DCDs, greater DR and DR based passives, greater health pool, and an ability to shield incoming attacks. You never responded to this point, except you're back repeating yourself. Obviously I read it before or I would not have bothered coming up with a counterpoint. So I repeat my question to you - if guardian dps are in fact "just as survivable" (which in my opinion is utter poppycock), counter my reasoning as laid out here. How are dps specs, despite the lower number and effectiveness of DCDs, the lack of passive DR and DR based passives (i.e. riposte and blade storm buffs for guardians), smaller health pool (depending on gearing), and the inability to shield "just as survivable"?

 

You also did not address my point about double guard vs no guard. I said this was (like merc stacking, sin stacking, or operative stacking, or whatever else we're screaming about now) a matchmaking issue primarily. If dps guarding is truly that effective, tell them it needs to be a factor in matchmaking.

 

And you also did not comment on my point about taunting. Dps cannot guard as effectively as tanks owing to dying faster from the increased incoming damage (please tell me I dont need to remind you that guard is not a damage reduction tool, it's a damage redirection tool. My tank then, can effectively mitigate that damage with his better DCDs and DR. My dps uses those faster and then has nothing left to protect himself). Taunt works identically for both, and yet, despite your faulty opinion that guard works the same, you aren't complaining about the thing that actually does work the same. Why is that?

 

Please respond to the issues and points I raised rather than continue to whine the same thing over and over when I have already provided a counter argument to it. And again, if I do not care if they remove guard, I obviously don't care if they nerf it, with the qualifier that the nerf only applies to dps specs, and I am provided some form of compensation to make up for the lost utility.

your points are unclear you just write walls of text i can't understand.

1. i WROTE this thread ABOUT AP PT DPS not guard, i don't know why you guys changed it to dps guard discussion since main issue is that ap pt has same overall dps as lethality operative against full meele team while he has nearly same burst as concealment operative (60+ k)

2. iam sure tanks guard must remain as it is now since thats what tank was made for

3. dps must not be able to guard same as tanks do since THEY ARE DPS and giving them same guard is making them a huge advantage even if in 4 dps vs 4 dps games their guard isn't saving that much because in HEAL GAMES their guard is same effective as tank's guard which is not ok

4.among all guarding classes only ap pt needs a slight defense buff since it's too squishy and gets killed very fast without healer or guard. While it also requires damage nerf as i said above

your points are unclear you just write walls of text i can't understand.

 

1. i WROTE this thread ABOUT AP PT DPS not guard, i don't know why you guys changed it to dps guard discussion since main issue is that ap pt has same overall dps as lethality operative against full meele team while he has nearly same burst as concealment operative (60+ k)

 

2. iam sure tanks guard must remain as it is now since thats what tank was made for

 

3. dps must not be able to guard same as tanks do since THEY ARE DPS and giving them same guard is making them a huge advantage even if in 4 dps vs 4 dps games their guard isn't saving that much because in HEAL GAMES their guard is same effective as tank's guard which is not ok

 

4.among all guarding classes only ap pt needs a slight defense buff since it's too squishy and gets killed very fast without healer or guard. While it also requires damage nerf as i said above

I replied to the point YOU made about guard because I couldn't care less about PT dps, because I don't play PT dps. I do care about guard, because it affects my class too. (And have repeatedly given my opinion that I don't care what they do with dps guard, as long as it doesn't affect tanks AND is accompanied by some actual survivability increases for my dps guardian). All I have done is attempt to reason with YOU, and you have totally failed at countering my argument.

None of those have anything to do with the replies I gave you regarding dps vs tank survivability, and your inability to respond to them tells me I must be right. I gave you explicit reasons dps survivability was lower, healer or not. You have failed to respond to that, failed to respond to my question about taunts, and in general failed at doing anything except complain.

None of this still has anything to counter the point I made yesterday.

They just need to remove guard from dps specs, problem solved.

 

PT damage is balanced because they have only 2 defensive cooldown while other classes has 5+.

If you nerf their damage you gotta give them more defenses to survive.

Want to point out that they have more than that. The new skill and depending on the spec, other skills become defensives.

But the defensives themselves are not insane. With that said, it's a dangerous line when making damage the defensive. The game isn't 1v1. What would be a balanced 1v1 can become a very one sided 4v4 when your damage is so high everyone melts in 4 seconds.

I replied to the point YOU made about guard because I couldn't care less about PT dps, because I don't play PT dps. I do care about guard, because it affects my class too. (And have repeatedly given my opinion that I don't care what they do with dps guard, as long as it doesn't affect tanks AND is accompanied by some actual survivability increases for my dps guardian). All I have done is attempt to reason with YOU, and you have totally failed at countering my argument.

 

None of those have anything to do with the replies I gave you regarding dps vs tank survivability, and your inability to respond to them tells me I must be right. I gave you explicit reasons dps survivability was lower, healer or not. You have failed to respond to that, failed to respond to my question about taunts, and in general failed at doing anything except complain.

 

None of this still has anything to counter the point I made yesterday.

As i said i can't even understand what you asking about since your idea is subtle, mixed between tonnes of words and behind big wall of text. Write it clear and short so i could help you with answer

As i said i can't even understand what you asking about since your idea is subtle, mixed between tonnes of words and behind big wall of text. Write it clear and short so i could help you with answer

I made it simple:

Tanks have greater survivability than dps in practically any circumstance because:

Greater number of DCDs

Greater passive defensives and procs

Depending on gear, a larger health pool

The ability to shield crits

Point 2 was about taunting - it works identically for both dps and tanks, and there is no survivability loss for using it.

How is that so hard to comprehend? It's not my fault you can't even spell properly.

I made it simple:

 

Tanks have greater survivability than dps in practically any circumstance because:

 

Greater number of DCDs

Greater passive defensives and procs

Depending on gear, a larger health pool

The ability to shield crits

 

Point 2 was about taunting - it works identically for both dps and tanks, and there is no survivability loss for using it.

 

How is that so hard to comprehend? It's not my fault you can't even spell properly.

So what it has with ap pt doing same dps as dot specs yet same big hits as arsenal merc or fury marauder? My thread is about ap pts insane dps and dev's huge mistake in buffing them.

And you still didn't write the issue which concerns you. You wrote obvious things that tanks have greater survivability which is ok because thats how it must be and you also write about taunts which is not ruining pvp balance at all

Why are you even talking tbh? PT has the lowest win rate last season stated by the devs. It's still first the targetted, first to die, and without dying its needs to outdps everyone otherwise it's pointless to even pick up pt.

Now you are gonna say 'uuu let's give it defensive then not damage'

There are 2 wrong things with that:

1 - It will be too op for pve

2 - No one wants homogenisation of classes with different animations only. It's boring.

Does dropping sins, sorcs and op's rolling to pt now? NO, absolutely not. This thread is pointless such as your opinion.

I mention taunts because you complain about dps being as effective at guarding as tanks, which they're not really because of the squishiness factor. We got into the tank vs dps survivability argument because of this:

in games with healer they are survivible as tanks

And I wasnt the one who originally brought up dps guard, you were. You guys are really rather dumb if you dont see the value of a straight DR to everyone except yourself, that's not on the GCD, is perfectly spammable, and had no repercussions. Because that's what taunt does. Yet you are here mentioning guard and making stupid claims, then backtracking when I prove you wrong.

Guard should be linked to a on cooldown mechanic on any dps spec...that should fix a lot of issues and is independent of Power techs.

Also keep in mind PTs will probably get some form of dps adjustment and follow the trend of the other specs (Sins, Sorcs, Opers) regardless in a patch or so - less burst, more sustain etc.

Anyways they are melee dps (need to be close to a target) and have lackluster dcds, so any type of problem created here is by dps guarding each other non stop and not the dps.

I mention taunts because you complain about dps being as effective at guarding as tanks, which they're not really because of the squishiness factor. We got into the tank vs dps survivability argument because of this:

 

 

 

 

And I wasnt the one who originally brought up dps guard, you were. You guys are really rather dumb if you dont see the value of a straight DR to everyone except yourself, that's not on the GCD, is perfectly spammable, and had no repercussions. Because that's what taunt does. Yet you are here mentioning guard and making stupid claims, then backtracking when I prove you wrong.

Go play ranked and try to win a heal game where enemy team has two guard dps while your team has only one dps who can guard. You won't win. your team just sit on one dps - he gets guard, you swap to another dps, he drops guard and gets guard from first dps whereas enemy team is just sitting on one of your team mates and cc'ing healer easily killing the target. Guard is the easiest thing to use in this game - one click to guard, one click to REMOVE guard (and removing guard is workable even if you are stunned or cc'ed). This makes two guarding dps auto win against a team with lack of two guarding dps. Iam more than sure that dps specs MUST NOT BE ABLE To guard on 50% with so little consequences in games with healers. In swtor healer can easily outheal two guarding dps which are being swapped by enemy team because their defenses are not wasted so fast and they can't be bursted down to death thanks to guard.

In addition to this we have ap pt doing more overall dps than any dot spec while being able to burst targets for 50-60k every few seconds. The game is becoming too guard-oriented for dps specs