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New Juggernaut and Guardian Set Bonus in 6.1.1 - Feedback

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
New Juggernaut and Guardian Set Bonus in 6.1.1 - Feedback
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Beyrahl's Avatar


Beyrahl
03.06.2020 , 01:59 PM | #11
3 seconds of basically ruthless aggressor is lackluster at best. Endure pain lasts 10 seconds as dps and 20 as tank. At least make it 6 seconds, or 8 and lower the yellow DR. It would be a lot better.

LeyDrewid's Avatar


LeyDrewid
03.10.2020 , 09:41 PM | #12
To the previous posters blaming MM raiders for the new gear set,

"Flexing" with gear hasn't been a thing since highlighted hard modes in 4.0. If MM raiders want to flex they do it with achievements, titles, mounts and maybe cosmetics.

This new gear set will still have a chance to drop off Kai and command crates. If VM Dxun is any indication, MM Dxun isn't likely to be a consistent source of drops. So seeing someone with the new set doesn't mean they must be a MM raider.

If you want blame someone/something blame Bioware. They are hoping to use the grind as content. That wasn't the call of MM raiders. Logging in the first day of a new expansion and knowing you have to grind out gear for any amount of time just to get back to what you were doing the day before isn't something MM raiders look forward to. In fact I know a number of MM raiders who quit the game rather than have to grind gear again when 6.0 dropped.

The idea that MM raiders are excited about the proposed set bonus is ridiculous. I'll explain why in another post below.

I am fairly certain that most MM raiders don't actively try to find ways to screw with the rest of the community. Most of the MM raiders I know are friendly, helpful players who enjoy the game in a slightly different way than the rest of the community.

LeyDrewid's Avatar


LeyDrewid
03.10.2020 , 09:42 PM | #13
To anyone who wants to know about the proposed set bonus,

This is largely from a PvE Tank PoV regarding PvE.

TL;DR
The 6p is incredibly weak.
The 4p is likely to be trivialized other abilities.

The breakdown
The Good:
You seem to have identified some of the weaknesses of the class. Jugg's tend to be squishier than their counterparts. Endure Pain/Enure (fake health) is the worst DCD in the game. Specific to Immortal/Defense (tank spec), they are pretty weak in terms of AoE threat generation. On paper this set addresses these issues.

The DPS Reality:
No DPS Jugg is going to wear this. Honestly, why should they? It's one thing to ask a glass cannon DPS spec that is head and shoulders above the other DPS specs to sacrifice some DPS for survivability. Jugg DPS are middle of the pack (single target) and far squishier than some of the DPS specs above them. If you want to do Jugg DPS a solid, put more survivability in their specs.


The 6 piece:
My analysis assumes the charges work like all the other charge skills. At best this set bonus gives exactly 1 additional AoE taunt per fight. On a long enough time line you will get more taunts out of the Lord of Pain set bonus. You can leverage this set bonus to get bursts of AoE taunt but I am not sure where that will be useful. Generally, a team will get more out of tanks coordinating taunts.

The best thing about this bonus is that you can skip it and still have access to the 4p.

1) If you really want to give Juggs increased access to AoE taunt, have LoP drop the CD by 15s. A second set that plays with the frequency of AoE taunt seems like a bad idea.
- Although, reduced CD on AoE taunt is a poor substitute for good sustained AoE threat generation.
2) Alternatives to current 6p: A CD reduction on Saber Ward, some kind of mitigation boost tied to Taunt, remove the min distance on leap, something that changes Ravage to an AoE and/or applies some kind of mitigation property.

The 4 piece:
I have multiple issues with this set bonus. I imagine the development discussion for this set bonus was something like “let's give Juggs a shroud”. At best this is shroud adjacent because of a technicality. Shroud at its base is a 3s duration 60s CD possible immunity to Force/Tech damage. Shroud's duration can be extended and it's CD reduced for tank. For the most part shroud is superior. In the case of Izax, shroud does NOT mitigate the head cannon damage. I've been told it is because the hit's have increased accuracy. This bonus would still provide mitigation. Because of this I am willing to say the proposed set bonus is shroud adjacent. Unless the plan going forward for MM boss fights includes a lot of unshroudable attacks, then this set bonus only gets worse. Jugg's already have access to an immunity state with Mad Dash. Dash has it's issues but Dxun so far has been very dash friendly. The real annoying thing is that Juggs already had a shroud like DCD, Saber Reflect. Sadly Saber Reflect feels like it has been pushed into obscurity.

It is possible that this set bonus will be BiS for some/all of MM Dxun. For that to happen, Dash and Saber Reflect would have to NOT be an option. If Dash isn’t an option then it is likely Shroud wouldn’t be an option and I just don’t see the Dev’s doing that.

1 ) Retuning Endure Pain/Enure to be a good DCD would be awesome. Trying to make it good with a set bonus is kind of lame.
2) Alternatives to current 4p: Whatever your goal for that set bonus was, apply it to Saber Reflect instead. If that’s a a CD reduction or extending the situations where Saber Reflect is usable.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
03.13.2020 , 01:06 AM | #14
Slightly shameful bump to request pointlessly that NiM exclusive sets not be added at least until you fix our existing stuff, like lord of pain and the leap cd reduction utility for starters.

Hronych's Avatar


Hronych
03.13.2020 , 01:53 AM | #15
After testing it in practice on 2 NiMs on PTS:
  • Cookie cutter PvE set for tank. Definitely more powerful than Undying and Lord of Pain and imo needs a nerf (considering that Juggs are already the best tanking choice for most of Dxun encounters).
  • Please implement an internal cooldown of like ~1gcd between mass taunts. Occasional double clicking leads to instant double taunting.
Deo / PTSDeo
Discord: saiDeo#0001

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
03.14.2020 , 05:41 PM | #16
I have a comment. That is I'm sick of having a "small chance" of getting it off kai. It took how long for the tactical to become avaliable? And now I'm facing the same thing, but x6?

Seriously, screw you guys.

LeyDrewid's Avatar


LeyDrewid
03.15.2020 , 04:38 AM | #17
That's a fair statement, what makes you think the chances are significantly better in MM Ops? My statement is stop blaming MM raiders for gear distribution systems.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
03.16.2020 , 09:44 PM | #18
Being honest, I think the chances are like, marginally better in ops.

The "screw you guys" was directed at BW.

Legionhound's Avatar


Legionhound
03.23.2020 , 12:25 PM | #19
So from my perspective this set bonus is extremely underwhelming. The only thing i want out of the set is the 2nd charge of AoE taunt, which while it has uses is weaker than lord of pain which i already think is a stupid design for a set due to it being focused on AoE taunt hitting multiple enemies. If it is a boss you are tanking the set feels useless, but back to the new set.

4 piece: 2 charges on AoE taunt feels like a quality of life improvement for flashpoints and maybe certain bosses in Dxun while not being worth sacrificing the damage reduction of lord of pain for those fights it will make tanking the trash easier.

6 piece: This is the part that i think a lot of people misread/misunderstand. This is a extremely weak set bonus, it doesn't turn your endure pain into a good cooldown. Internal/Elemental damage types are extremely rare and often chip damage and dots, in Dxun there are some things that are bursty that this would work on but that is it for this set being useful in ops. It is a reward from Dxun, to make Dxun easier.

To give examples of how this set bonus is weak in previous operations let's go boss-by-boss in machine gods.
Tyth: Guardian explosion and Justice shield are I/E. One is a type of damage that most people don't even realise is there and the other is avoidable.
Sisters: Radiance, dot from the middle beam in the first phase. Radiance hurts but is it worth a 10% damage loss or 10% dr on aoe taunt? Doubt it
Nahut: Mostly his first phase damage is I/E along with the final burn. Maybe useful but a lot of that damage is bad due to it being AoE damage so 1 person taking less damage will not achieve much.
Scyva: I'm not even sure to be honest, it will not help with the turrets which are the main part of the damage in the fight. Most likely small chip damage from purple in the ground or the red spheres.
Izax: Tethers and blue puddles, useless.

The point i am trying to make is that Force/Tech does not mean Internal/Elemental, a lot of force damage is energy/kinetic to make it shieldable. Most DoT effects are internal/elemental though, so what this set achieves for the most part in old operations is avoiding DoT damage for only 3 seconds, the only good use in old operations i found were the first 2 bosses in Explosive Conflict that have a boss that is purely I/E damage so you can mitigate a couple basic attacks. And if you are thinking i am wrong with this, i ask you to think of I/E things in ops that kill you as a tank first. The game does a bit of a poor job explaining the differences between these damage types to players which means without 3rd party programs for help you often don't have any indication of what is F/T and what is I/E damage, which i think is why people think this is going to be a good set that makes our worst cooldown better.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
03.23.2020 , 04:04 PM | #20
I personally think adding a new set, that will mess with the cd on aoe taunt, probably further breaking the current "bis" and getting rid of the cd indicator (yeah yeah, they're "fixing" lord of pain, sure) is stupid. Making it "MM exclusive" (and yes kai/rng crates yes I hear the argument) is even more stupid.

Again, screw you guys (BW).