I'm canceling my subscription to your game here. This tread is not to have you feel bad about not getting my one sub a month, it's just informing you why.

 

Oh yeah, and why not use the 2K character option when you unsub? Because I wrote an exact 2000 character explanation, pressed unsub, and got this:

 

"Please enter your display name and password to access your account information."

 

Thanks, now all my work was deleted and I had to go back and select unsub again. May as well just make a post.

 

So, basically what initially drew me to SW:TOR was the biggest sales-pitch you ever had: Story, and choices with meaning. Sadly from everything I've seen the story is undermined by the hollow nature of the choices you make, they do not matter.

 

*BE WARNED THAT THERE ARE SPOILERS AHEAD, FOR THOSE FEW WHO HAVE NOT PLAYED BOUNTY HUNTER OR SITH WARRIOR YET.*

 

When I played a few Republic characters I did not see this, because due to the nature of the choices I made, I managed to avoid the reality that any choices that may have negatively affected my game-play was selected away.

 

Not so when I played Empire characters.

 

My first Empire character was a Sith Warrior. Sticking to my style, I wanted to play a dark-side adhering Sith first, then only later after a couple other characters, reverse this position. I was initially impressed with the seemingly legit nature of choices here because I chose early on to NEVER remove Vette's collar for any reason, and her reaction is ofc to NEVER SPEAK WITH ME AGAIN. Wonderful, a character I actually like a lot will never let me know how her story goes because she hates my bigoted face? That's a consequence I'm willing to live with, after all it was another excuse to look forward to the light-side version of the Sith Warrior story.

 

However... onward with the story and I end up being betrayed. By Pierce, another character I actually liked. It was amusing to explore his story for many reasons, among them the constant dynamic bouncing back and forth between the Imperial standards he upholds and my character's style of Sith douche-baggery and out-right raging insanity. I went through the whole stage where he had me ambushed, and stopped cold before I made the choice - as far as I expected - to kill him. I was going to miss him, but Sith code is Sith code, and this man betrayed me. I even offered a thanks directly to BioWare writers at this point, clapping my hands as I was genuinely moved by the fact that, if I wanted to remain consistent with my character's outlook on life and how things were to be done, I was going to do away with my second-favorite Sith-Warrior companion.

 

And then... I can't kill him. I did not change my mind, the game FORCED my character to somehow change their mind. Just like that. Pierce is alive an well on my ship when he should be dead, and my character is suddenly not mine anymore. I felt... betrayed. By the writers and coders and developers in general I had just offered my thanks for making a game with choices that MATTER - among them, possibly losing companions, even the one's I appreciated.

 

Suddenly my Sith Warrior was no longer a character with any integrity and standards, but some joke that can't do what every angle of their behavior screams they would do, up until this very point in time, because somehow that would be INCONVENIENT TO ME, to be denied the rest of his story because I decapitated him. I would have one less companion doing my bidding and my crew skills etc. would develop slower. That's a loss I was willing to accept, that I was prepared to live with, because I wanted to stay consistent with my character. Hell, I looked forward to likely forgiving him with the light-side Sith Warrior and see where things go after that point.

 

In an effort to see if this INSULT repeats itself with other characters, I made a bounty Hunter. Standards: Ruthless but abiding by a code, much like the Sith Warrior. Early declaration was to treat bounties as sacred, if you take one you finish it, legitimately. That worked our relatively well... until Gault.

 

This guy was a bounty. One I wanted to finish and deliver and be about my way. I realized early on that this guy was likely going to become my companion, given the system of companion gain at specific instances in the character stories. All the while, I wanted to see if Pierce was just an exception. Ofc he wasn't. He was part of a standard. A standard that says that if you have a choice that leads to negative impact on your game-play - for instance, by having less characters to do your bidding - that choice is false.

 

I can't deliver Gault as a bounty and while some players seem to warm up to him, I never did. His existence on the ship invalidated by whole character, invalidated my play, erased any illusion of choice I had. I despise this guy and don't want him around, but I soldiered on just to see where things went. Ofc, I later run into Skadge.

 

Zero redeeming qualities, a complete contradiction to what my character stands for, and an antagonistic attitude from the start. Can I kill him, that one thing that it's been building up to ever since I met him? No, ofc not. I'm going to do the 180 decision to somehow troll myself into letting him onto my ship. So now I have two character my Bounty Hunter would NEVER allow to live.

 

But ofc, it's not MY Bounty Hunter, is it? The illusion of choice is completely removed. The one big sales-pitch that SW:TOR has is that while all the other MMO's and grand games etc. out there has gameplay and settings and so on none had what SW:TOR had to offer - a detailed, deep, involving and expansive story filled with choices that change how the story flows. Hell you even make this clear on the promotional material for your expansions:

 

A man can have anything...

If he's willing to sacrifice everything.

Step into an epic story-driven adventure as your character becomes The Outlander, a veteran of the Great Galactic War, in Knights of the Fallen Empire – now live! Travel to the Outer Rim of the galaxy to come face-to-face with a new threat, Emperor Valkorion and his Eternal Empire. Choose your path(1), recruit Companions(2) into your Alliance, and make choices that have power to change destinies(3), all at the center of your own personal Star Wars™ saga!(4) Best of all, Subscribers of Star Wars: The Old Republic can access and play all chapters of the evolving Knights of the Fallen Empire story for free. Create your Level 60 character and play today!

 

I have not played this expansion yet and find all my enthusiasm for doing so has faded away. How much of this is true and how much is a blatant lie? Here are some conclusions I'll draw from your own promo material based on what I've seen so far:

 

1) Is it really *MY* path, or is this a lie?

2) If you like them or not is irrelevant, you will be getting them no matter what you want, and you can't get rid of them.

3) Only if you make the right choices that fall in line with what the general story desires, all other choices being false.

4) It isn't mine, is it though? It's yours, and I realize that as soon as I make a choice they don't allow for?

 

As I have until the 11th of next month for my sub to expire I still have some time to look into these things. Should I go jump into this expansion, assuming I get any of my toons high enough to do so? Will my choices matter? Can I affect the story? Are the issues I've pointed out very specific exceptions?

 

I'm unsubbing SOLELY due to this issue. The Game-play, and everything else has been highly enjoyable, and until I became aware of this issue, so was the story.

Anyone got the cliff notes?

 

also - can I haz your stuff?

Just a FYI, its Quinn not Pierce who betrays you...

 

As for the rest, just like the end of Mass Effect 3... Choice is a lie...

Edited October 16, 2016 by XiamaraSimi

Anyone got the cliff notes?

 

also - can I haz your stuff?

 

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

Or Gault and Skadge in the BH story.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by XiamaraSimi

At least his Wrath is directed at the lack of choice in the original class storylines. Far too many people would have illustrated this with examples from KotFE, where you have the option (given "correct" convos) to kill one of two story companions, exile one of them instead, and drive into exile a third.

 

Not to mention that you can kill and/or exile/imprison several of the "alliance alert" characters.

 

There are still a lot of "forced" plot points, but a lot more of them are justified by the story than the ones in the vanilla class and planetary stories.

You can truly thank the players for this particular mess about not being able to kill companions. You used to be able to do it back in beta, but players griped and complained because they felt it unfair that they lost companions because of those choices, and BW eventually catered to them and changed it so that companions couldn't be refused or killed off, that is, until KOTFE came around. Now, that being said, they only allowed a handful of various companions to be refused outright or killed. Quinn isn't back in the picture yet, but I'm truly hoping that if KOTET comes around, and Quinn becomes an Alliance alert, that we are given the option to kill him. I would hit esc on that cutscene a few thousand times just to watch my character gut him with the lightsaber over and over.

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

That is possibly the worst reason I have heard yet for quitting this game. Crappy engine, yes. Not enough "end game", fine. PvP is balls, I get it. You haven't had the chance to kill a companion who is currently missing anyway? Lame

Didn't they say you get the chance to kill any companion in the next Volume anyway?

Impatience generation. They want to kill Quinn RIGHT NAOW!1!1!!!!1111!!!!!!1111111111

 

At least his Wrath is directed at the lack of choice in the original class storylines. Far too many people would have illustrated this with examples from KotFE ...

What's really a shame, is that in Beta, some of the companions were killable (I believe that Quinn was one of those).

 

But players complained about a) missing out on a healer companion and b) not having enough companions to run crew missions. Thus story was impacted by bowing to the needs of gameplay.

 

I wonder if they ever seriously considered reinstating the original dev vision of being able to kill companions in the class stories? (Now that we have role-switching companions, and a veritable plethora to choose from, that is.)

Edited October 16, 2016 by Khevar

What's really a shame, is that in Beta, some of the companions were killable (I believe that Quinn was one of those).

 

But players complained about a) missing out on a healer companion and b) not having enough companions to run crew missions. Thus story was impacted by bowing to the needs of gameplay.

 

I wonder if they ever seriously considered reinstating the original dev vision of being able to kill companions in the class stories? Now that we have role-switching companions, and a veritable plethora to choose from, that is.

 

Probably not; not worth the effort.

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

We're not going to have another thread about how much everyone hates Quinn and wants to kill him are we? Hmm but I suppose we haven't had one for awhile now.

Edited October 16, 2016 by BlueShiftRecall

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

Well Quinn does deserve to see the outside of the airlock, so I feel you OP, I feel you....

Tl:dr

I wonder if they ever seriously considered reinstating the original dev vision of being able to kill companions in the class stories? (Now that we have role-switching companions, and a veritable plethora to choose from, that is.)

Too late for it now. They're making it up for it KOTFE to a point though. And from the hints dropped, continuing to make up for it in KOTET.

 

Reason it's too late to go back and change it is because of how certain companions get tied into later missions or story. You'd end up with moments where you're like, "I already killed this guy..." And then you'd really be mad, since you'd feel like the game just mocked your once-meaningful choice.

 

1) Is it really *MY* path, or is this a lie?

2) If you like them or not is irrelevant, you will be getting them no matter what you want, and you can't get rid of them.

3) Only if you make the right choices that fall in line with what the general story desires, all other choices being false.

4) It isn't mine, is it though? It's yours, and I realize that as soon as I make a choice they don't allow for?

1) Yes and no. There are moments. Not many of them. We'll have to wait and see how they do in KOTET... see if they've improved on it.

2) Depends on the companion. Don't want to go into more detail, or I'll end up in spoiler territory.

3) I mean... again, yes and no. See what I said about 1.

4) Same as 1 again, really.

 

I wouldn't go in with high expectations, but there are moments, is all I can say.

 

1) Is it really *MY* path, or is this a lie?

2) If you like them or not is irrelevant, you will be getting them no matter what you want, and you can't get rid of them.

3) Only if you make the right choices that fall in line with what the general story desires, all other choices being false.

4) It isn't mine, is it though? It's yours, and I realize that as soon as I make a choice they don't allow for?

 

 

1. Your path doesn't mean total and absolute control over everything. To give full personal choices at all stages is not feasible and we all know that. Instead there are SOME choices that effect things (and yes, in Kotfe they really do at times, despite what naysayers on these forums say).

 

2. This is flat out false, some yes you do get forced, but some of even straight up kill-able lol.

 

3. Nope.

 

4. Pretty sure even if you were there in real life, half of the things you chose wouldn't happen. That's how life works, sometimes you make a choice and you don't succeed at doing anything substantial.

 

Didn't feel like getting into any wall of text arguments for now. Might later if I feel up to it. Best wishes, hope you can either find joy here and stay or find joy elsewhere.

I could go into how they've got a problem with resource management and the valid concerns a lot of companions people like ( and there are a lot of us who actually like Quinn- Not Pierce, can I just say I'd never have let Broonmark on my ship in a pink fit or not spent my time hunting the former Emperor's Wrath) getting killed and getting stuck with a Liara T'Soni situation (frelling hell just realized how close Liara and Lana are as names), you know the one where you're supposed to love a companion because they're the only one who can't die.

 

The issue boiled down to, and I think they've got the original assets- not so much crafting but pre 4.0 companions where Quinn was the Sith Warrior's healer companion. He's the only love interest for a female player, in my opinion, the most interesting and makes you think. He acted in accordance to the person who clearly shielded him from the worst of Broysc- I'd like to have seen tempered, fair actions result in a different conversation and being an absolute rampaging psycho making him determined- the fight is scripted.

 

That said, enough with the loyal dark Jaesa- I want her to attack my DS Wrath in vengeance and I'd like the option to kill Miss Crazy Pants.

 

All this will do is prompt them to create more 'safety' companions and neglect our originals.

Some replies specifically for a few people below. For the rest, thanks for the decent inputs, actually reading and understanding my post. I'm going through the story-elements at this point because I have little else to do until my sub runs out. All the same, as it seems the severity of choices do pick up a little later on down the line I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing how that works out now, so thanks for that info, at the least.

 

Anyone got the cliff notes?

 

also - can I haz your stuff?

 

Predictably lazy and typical reply is predictably lazy.

 

The answers are No and No, btw.

 

Just a FYI, its Quinn not Pierce who betrays you...

 

As for the rest, just like the end of Mass Effect 3... Choice is a lie...

 

Thanks for the clarification, I mix up those two names all the time...

 

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

No, I'm annoyed enough to quit paying because everything in the story builds to these moments when what you do can have serious impacts, even negative ones for your own game-play, and players are denied these due to whiny Beta testers. These Beta testers were so unbelievably intellectually deficient they did not understand that, if you kill someone, they won't be around to do your bidding anymore. BioWare's response to that was not to add a disclaimer on that choice, stating in no uncertain terms that you would actually kill this person if you took this option, and outline what that would mean - instead, they shoe-horned in some moronic, out-of-character excuses for why you don't actually kill or decline the character becoming a companion.

 

It's about story immersion and the viability of choices, even negative ones, and so long as you can't make choices that has a bad impact on your game-play, the story and immersion is sacrificed for the sake of game-play. Fair enough, but that's not what I was promised and thus that's not something I will pay for.

 

That is possibly the worst reason I have heard yet for quitting this game. Crappy engine, yes. Not enough "end game", fine. PvP is balls, I get it. You haven't had the chance to kill a companion who is currently missing anyway? Lame

 

That's not my point and you would know that if you read my post. Because you did not want to do that, you have no idea what you are commenting on. Feel free to not make a fool of yourself next time you go "TL;DR" on a topic but feel like pitching in your worthless 5 creds anyway. Also, luckily for your lazy self, there is a bit of a shorter version above, that should help you out just fine.

 

Impatience generation. They want to kill Quinn RIGHT NAOW!1!1!!!!1111!!!!!!1111111111

 

 

Read the above quote's response. It was never about who I do and don't get to kill. It was about the implications of that false choice and what that meant for the sincerity of BioWare's sale's pitch.

He is POed because he cannot kill Quinn after the betrayal

 

Yet he could just put him in storage and never take him out again... thus roleplaying that he banished him to Hoth.

 

Instead, he quits. Takes all kinds to make a village.

 

Which makes me want the studio to let us put a companion in Carbonite and blow them out the ships hatch. You know.. for those that lack the imagination to role play.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

Probably not; not worth the effort.

 

Guess not, but that would be one simple thing to show "we care about your opinion" and to refresh old stories "now you CAN kill at least any "bad" companions you want".

Dear Op,

 

a compelling read, too bad players fought against being able to kill companions during beta. Although seems BioWare got part of this as we will be able to get rid of companions in Kotet. At least what was announced in the dev tracker.

 

Quinn is indeed a plea that ruins the immersions and well yes the pseudo choices really suck. This is even worse in KoTFE. That plus our character is mostly the peon of the companions.

 

Hopefully the devs had the budget to make more than a one fits all (classes) linear story and we won't be a pseudo hero sweeping the floor for others.

 

On a side note don't forget the game isn't designed for adults.

Anyone got the cliff notes?

 

also - can I haz your stuff?

 

I think I saw the word NEVER a few times while scrolling

Anyone got the cliff notes?

 

also - can I haz your stuff?

 

1. He is leaving for "reasons"

 

2. Why would you want it? Have you not noticed the empty servers?

Wait, I'm confused. OP -- are you new to the game? I ask sincerely, not snarkily. Because the bulk of your issues seem to center around 5-year-old content from the vanilla game. Is this thread really just to complain about the illusion of choice in the original stories? If so, I'm sorry but I just don't see the point. Why provide feedback on five-year-old content? Heck, it's not even the same development team at this point as the group that designed the original stories.