Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Any hope on the horizon for infiltration/deception?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Any hope on the horizon for infiltration/deception?

PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
03.28.2018 , 03:49 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
So deception is not in the top 3, but it is in the upper third of an 8 possible contestants right? 3/8 is 2 if you round down, 3 if you round up. It's ok, I understand what you were trying to say.
Someone pointed out, but there are 18 Dps specs, and deception is actually placed 8th. 9th on the other hand if you prefer to check TTK, not damage, as Hatred would then push deception down to 9th. http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard...00/all/live/0/ contradicting http://parsely.io/parser/stats

Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
So how does it compare to the other 4 classes:
melee/ranged:
Deception is melee and has really nothing to throw during melee downtime. Jugg is exactly the same. PT (esp. AP) has somethings it an do during melee downtime, and sorc is fully ranged, and the higher parser is a DoT spec-but needs to fully cast force lightning to compensate.
As a long time deception/sin player some things need to be fixed. Deception has active abilities we can use in downtime, 1 for instance just like how a Powertech would flamesweep to either proc railshot in AP, or build searing wave stacks in Pyro, a deception sin uses lacerate to keep up voltaic stacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
group utility:
deception has none (no one takes that useless heal as it is useless). Jugg has intercede and the threatening scream sonic wall, neiither of which is that great. PT has sonic rebounder which only works on direct damage and the stealth scan speed buff, also neither of which is really great. Sorc has a raid buff, static shield, off heals, extrication and revival (in case healers are too busy).
One of the main things an assassin can bring group utility wise is a stealth revive. While operative can pull both a combat revive and stealth revive, your damage doesn't matter if your entire group died so a stealth revive is entirely optional. Assassin's shelter would agree is a useless heal, but you forget it also applies 5% DR on top of that to the allies who receive the heal, and there are instances that is more important, on honorable mentions like Underlurker. Don't forget about spec debuffs, deception applying armor and force damage. Armor debuff increasing all player's damage and Force damage increasing the following specs who can't apply it themselves: Vengeance and Rage jugg, Fury and carnage marauder, or even help other classes that while could apply it on their own, could use other moves that would take priority had the debuff been present, like sorcerer and other assassins.

Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
DCDs:
Deception has deflection which is almost useless, and shroud for 5 seconds after a legendary utility. It also has a legendary utility that gives 60% DR, but taking it means losing either reapers rush which results in a loss of dps or losing the extra 2 seconds on shroud. It does give 24% of passive defenses if you can keep dps up (which is pretty easy) in addition to its 17% default, giving the deception the highest passive defenses in the game at 41%. Jugg has a better deflection, saber reflect which can double as an offensive tool, enraged defense which has some niche uses but wont protect against spike damage and fake health, which is not really that useful. PT has a 25% shield DCD, and kolto overload which gives an extra 30% DCD if specced into pyro. Sorc has, self heals (including one off GCD), static barrier, phase walk, god bubble, a 25% DR on a 45s CD and of course range. By default assassin has the lowest DR and jugg has the highest, with PT coming in second.
Deflection has it's uses, against adds, or even tanking bosses for parts of a time you can use that: Honorable mentions include melee/range adds from any boss fight in game, Taunting Terror while on a close platform, or any melee/ranged attacking boss for that instance. Losing the 2 extra seconds of shroud especially in a pve scenario is way more beneficial as the 60% damage absorb on force speed has way more uses. Let's take Terror from Beyond for example again, your job is to burn tentacles in 2nd phase and uptime is crucial. you can either A. take 2 extra second on force shroud so you can survive 1 slam damage free even if you activate it slightly earlier, or B take phasing phantasm and use force speed on every slam and still never take damage (current fun yet useful bug). Taking phasing phantasm definitely is better as even without the extra 2 seconds you would use shroud to survive a strong single force hit anyway or as a cleanse, not standing in an AoE that would kill you.

Funny contradiction you mentioned being "deception the highest passive defenses in the game at 41%." yet "By default assassin has the lowest DR and jugg has the highest." I'll assume this is a tank comparison, which an assassin relies more on shielding/absorbing attacks more than the other 2 tanks, hence the passive lower DR. As for a deception assassin, we sport the highest passive DR compared to other dps classes in the mid 30 percentile due to our maul proc, and it's still DR not defense chance.

Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
So based on all this, would deception be at the top? Honestly I this it would depend on the boss, on bosses like sword squadron, master and blaster, the council, kephess the warlord, vorgath or revan, deception would not be highest of the bottom 4. But on bosses like brontes I honestly think deception would be the best of the 4 (in contrast to what you believe). Shroud to deal with orb phase, reaper rush and burst to deal with kephess/the clock phase and correct me if I'm wrong but deflection would help with the finger phase. That is my opinion anyway.
We don't need to think, starparse actually has fights built in too. http://parsely.io/parser/operations/...ll/all/live/0/
One of the key things to point out is both assassin specs have a great sub 30%. This means that in burn phases deception will do more damage naturally than another spec who you'd compare damage to in the same instance that don't have sub 30 effects. So fights like Terror, Warlord Kephess (as you mentioned), and Styrak are all great instances where deception's burn would be more beneficial, even though their overall dps in a fight might be under.

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
03.28.2018 , 08:52 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by PrometheanDeath View Post
Funny contradiction you mentioned being "deception the highest passive defenses in the game at 41%." yet "By default assassin has the lowest DR and jugg has the highest." I'll assume this is a tank comparison, which an assassin relies more on shielding/absorbing attacks more than the other 2 tanks, hence the passive lower DR. As for a deception assassin, we sport the highest passive DR compared to other dps classes in the mid 30 percentile due to our maul proc, and it's still DR not defense chance.
Just to explain, I wrote "by default". I meant without and of the buffs received from entropic field or maul. As I wrote right at the beginning of the paragraph, with the buffs we have the highest passive DR in the game.


Quote: Originally Posted by PrometheanDeath View Post
We don't need to think, starparse actually has fights built in too. http://parsely.io/parser/operations/...ll/all/live/0/
One of the key things to point out is both assassin specs have a great sub 30%. This means that in burn phases deception will do more damage naturally than another spec who you'd compare damage to in the same instance that don't have sub 30 effects. So fights like Terror, Warlord Kephess (as you mentioned), and Styrak are all great instances where deception's burn would be more beneficial, even though their overall dps in a fight might be under.
Styrak is definitely one where deception would be a good asset-forgot that one. I don't see deception as being that much of an asset for warlord kephess (although better than a sorc).

What exactly is the point of this entire post? That deception is not complete trash? I never said it was. I said "The only trend I noticed, is that BW will NEVER let this class be really good for serious PvE in anything other than tanking. Either it is too weak, or other classes are too much better." And so far you haven't really shown me anything to disprove it. If you are vying for a dps position in a NiM raid team, odds are you will not be taken as an assassin. This has been the case for a very long time, and it is still the case now. There are AFAIK no other classes that experienced this throughout the course of this game.
Ma'kaela - jedi shadow in training
Mákaela - assassin in the shadows

Exocor's Avatar


Exocor
03.28.2018 , 10:56 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by sithBracer View Post
What exactly is the point of this entire post? That deception is not complete trash? I never said it was. I said "The only trend I noticed, is that BW will NEVER let this class be really good for serious PvE in anything other than tanking. Either it is too weak, or other classes are too much better." And so far you haven't really shown me anything to disprove it. If you are vying for a dps position in a NiM raid team, odds are you will not be taken as an assassin. This has been the case for a very long time, and it is still the case now. There are AFAIK no other classes that experienced this throughout the course of this game.
I don't know, who you are or where you come from, so don't feel offended. However, I am currently raid leader of one of the best groups in the german community. From my perspective, any bosses, that are not MM-last bosses are literally trash. With very few exceptions, every boss that is not a MM-final boss can be cleared with any class compositions easily, given, that the players know their classes and the encounter. The only challenges currently given are the final bosses. And within these final bosses, there are certain phases, that are more difficult and others, that are less dificult. Brontes NiM for example: The only difficulty is the Burn Phase. All other phases are a joke. Deception has here both, great burst potential and superior dcd's and utility (just press Force Speed right before you receive Fire&Forget). It is just not "really good" because other classes can do more DPS (PT) or bringing superior raid utility (Sniper). Deception/Infilitration is "really good" for 2 out of 5. it is completely viable for the other 3, bringing superior survivability and decent DPS. So, I have to disagree with you: If one of our members is asking me, if he can come with an Infilitration shadow this raid night, I would let him, given, that he can play the class.

However, from the points you made, I fairly doubt, that you are aware of the full potential of Deception/Infiltration. Just an example: From all DPS, Tank and Healer classes, Deception/Infiltration is the only one, that can eat Slams of the tunneling tentacles at TFB NiM without any cooldown. Ask a juggernaut/guardian, what he does here... aoe-taunt every 45 seconds I guess. So, probably, you are right. There are classes, that are "really good" in 5/5 (PT, Sniper, Mara). However, in terms of overall greatness regarding all last boss encounters (please, don't come up with Underlurker or other trash bosses.. thats not even Master Mode) I would spontaneously make the following list: 1. AP, 2. Virulence, 3. Annihilation, 4. Marksman, 5. Fury, 6. Deception, 7. Hatred, 8. Lethality, 9. carnage, 10. vengeance, 11. pyrotech, 12. Innovative Ordnance, 13. Concealment, 14. Madness, 15. Rage, 16. Lightning
Be aware, that that's just my personal view. Having Lethality on 8 (behind Sins and Fury) is surely disputable, however, from my experience, operatives are mostly scumbags and are not really useful for the raid. And to do maximum DPS (the only thing that matters for operatives) you have to be a scumbag. Though, Operatives are not the matter here.

Regarding your "you showed me nothing that disproves it": Your have made a statement, that Deception is not "really great" for hard content, without bringing up any arguments. As far as I am willing to show you, that your assumption is wrong, I'll ask you to tell us, 1. what do you mean with "serious PvE" 2. what do you mean with "really great"? I showed you my point of view, what "serious PvE" (--> NiM final bosses) and what "really great" (--> superior and/or decent performance in all of those encounters) means for me. Without those basics, we will probably be at crossed purposes until one of us quits the disussion.
Infinitas Coryak - Tulak Hord Nox
--
Check our Sale Offers!