Hello I'm a Battlemaster Jug (Full PvP Vindicators, 650 Expertise, 1500+ Str, 95% acc, 30% crit, 75% surge) with some tips for you guys who don't pay attention to the effectiveness of specific builds. I've tried many builds at my own expense and I have to say that I am happiest with this, though you may disagree. The general theme of this build is to offer a somewhat well rounded Juggernaut which benefits most from in group support roles. In the past I've posts builds of Soresu Vengeance, but they just seemed to be lacking any sort of extended viability. With this, I hope to educate a lot of you juggernauts on alternative roles which don't solely revolve around being a pure tank or being a pure lol-smash build.

 

First repeat after me. "I am not a mortal strike warrior."

 

Got it out of your system? Good.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzRbouRZhMRZM.1

 

 

What you want your stats to look like

 

What you 'kinda' want your stats to look like (aka w/o stim)

 

UPDATED: Added game play tips below.

 

What you CANNOT do with this build.

-Kill Everything

-Tank Everything for more then your CD's last

-Be the first target/first to charge in

 

What you CAN do with this build.

-Offer great focus burst DPS

-Control primary enemy targets with stuns and spammable slow

-Support teammates with guard and taunt constantly

-Play multiple roles at once without sacrificing too much.

-Pull in 9-10 Medals per game if you play right.

 

What this build relies on.

-That you are heavily PvP DPS geared.

-Once you hit 100% accuracy, its best to stack crit/surge/power.

-A Team

 

You are not a lone wolf and you will not single handedly carry pugs with this build, it is intended to work with a well rounded group which has at least one primary healer and one primary DPS.

 

How to play this build

 

Don't make yourself the first target unless its necessary. Your primary role is to control the enemy DPS and their healers, meaning guard teammates, taunt enemies and stun healers, nothing is more important than this. You cannot do much of this if you are the first one to get targetted by 4+ people in a huttball if you are the first one to the ball without having a proper exit (Intercede/Extrication).

 

You will have to pay attention to raid frames and whats going on in your proximity. Switch your guard often and taunt when ever the CD is up. Your primary goal is to make sure everyone else around you lives by mitigating the enemies damage.

 

The other part of your primary role is to offer support DPS. This means focusing with your group to take down a target. Your DPS isn't spectacular, but when combined with your control and proper itemization, you can easily spam 2K+ attack crits on every hit against Champion geared medium armor after sunders are applied. Besides the obvious Sunder -> Crushing Blow initial rotation, one VERY important part of your DPS is your Stun -> Ravage combo. If you are targeting a healer or a very scary burst DPS who threatens to kill a teammate, the best ability combo to use is either your Backhand or Unchanneled Force Choke. This order will nearly guarantee a large amount of damage on your target and is pretty much the best situation possible to use ravage in PvP.

 

While you do make a good ball carrier with some survivability cooldowns, and Charge -> Push -> Charge being great field movers, I feel that your abilities are much better spent on protecting a ball carrier. Guarding a ball carrier and taunting with a healer nearby is VERY annoying to an enemy team, and if they are an unfocused pug, their DPS will most likely begin to split against all the targets and once they have lost their focus, they have ultimately lost. You should consider your role to be an extreme nuisance to enemies with good teamwork, and deadly to pugs.

 

What kind of Damage do you pull in this build?

With all your control and survivability, your overall damage isn't going to compare to pure DPS classes, but it is still amazing for what the goal of this play style is. The follow numbers are based on what I've seen, but is nothing official, but you can expect top end numbers when you burn Relics/Adrenals/PvP buffs. With Crushing Blow you can expect crits from anywhere to 2.5k-4.5k depending on how armored/geared the target is. Ravage can do 1.5k per crit hit with a final hit of 2.5k+. Sunder can have around 1k Crits and your vicious slash (which is rarely used anyways) can have around 1.5k crits. Smash crits can be anywhere to 1.8k - 3.2k.

 

 

Why DPS Immortal?

If you don't like being a full on tank in PvP, then this is the build for you. I am not so much a fan of the Rage tree in its current state because it doesn't help you win games. All Rage is good for is generating large numbers on your screen, and killing everyone isn't always the best way of accomplishing an objective. Rage DMG is gimmicky at best and the survivability and control you sacrifice to achieve such DPS is just way too much. You won't be pulling 4-5k smash crits, but you will be living a lot longer and being able to dance circles around a Rage warrior should you ever encounter one.

 

Remember what I said about control? In a Rage build you can burn your whole Force Crush -> obliterate -> force scream -> force push -> charge -> Smash rotation and still have a healer standing with enough health to get off a full heal, and after all your primary abilities are on CD or you are low on rage w/ no options to generate it, then you are dead in the water.

 

With this build you can offer more consistent DPS to focused targets and be able to DPS WHILE YOU STUN. I cannot stress how important Backhand/Force Choke into DPS rotations are in this build. Play your CD's right and you can effectively lock out a healer out of 4 spell casts in a row (Interrupt, 2 stuns, and your interrupt again, though this takes into account that your team isn't resolve capping your target)

 

Other things that this build relies on (that any Jug should be doing anyways)

-Knowing when to leave a fight by charging/interceding

-Knowing how to generate rage and remove targets from fights. (force pushing an enemy teammate into the pit in Huttball is much more effective then trying to kill them, because with 1 ability you are effectively removing them from the engagement.)

-Charge - Force Push - Charge. Do it, you can pretend to be your favorite football player as you cruise across the huttball field.

 

Things I have yet to test out

-The pro/cons of using either an offensive or defensive shield.

 

TIPS

- Generating Rage w/o Unyielding (reply to posts deeper in)

 

 

 

 

- Escaping enemies in sticky situations

 

 

 

-Engaging Group v Group combat

 

 

 

-Controlling Targets

 

 

 

 

REMINDER FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM PURE DPS IS 'BETTER' DAMAGE

 

The stuns allow for CONTROLLED DAMAGE. When viewing things from a 1v1 perspective, having these stuns effectively allows you to out DPS your target despite having a smash build. The point is the DIFFERENCE in DPS this build creates. The rates of each person's DPS constant if you are a smash build, meaning you will be taking damage as you deal it, meaning the fight has become a DPS race based on who can kill first, and the Jug is terrible at doing this.

 

Controlled Damage on the other hand, allows you to PAUSE your enemies DPS, giving you free reign to gain an advantage of effective DPS time. Would you rather 5k Smashed or the ability to potentially stop all incoming damage from the enemy potentially up to 8 seconds, giving you a potential 8 seconds of free reign to do as much DMG as you like to them without taking damage yourself.

 

If you have comments or concerns that I haven't come up with, then please reply.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Schwarzwald
formatting; renamed to fit the content

So you run full dps gear? Soresu form? shield offhand?

 

Think i might give this a go

This is similar to what I run, except I go up further in Vengeance to get Accuracy instead of lowering the cooldowns for FC and Ravage.

Interesting read but....

 

... with some tips for you guys who don't seem to know how to play your class.

 

with an attitude like that, this cannot end well.

Funny. The exact same build I have.

 

I was a mixed hybrid before, then went with this build. I'm feeling a lot more confident now, knowing I can survive a DPS burst and knowing I can take pretty much anyone on for long enough to keep them off the ball carrier.

 

The key adjustment is realizing that every fight is going to be a long one, as your DPS is steady not burst. I've had a few 1v1 and 1v2 where the opponents eventually gave up and tried to run away.

 

As the op said, don't leap into the front of the fight. Stand back, pick your targets and help the ball carrier.

So you run dps gear?

<3 Immortal

 

I'm immortal with more strength than endurance, setting up as a DPS with that tree does wonders, it's more difficult to play than veng and rage though.

 

OP, you can remove that one line about people not knowing how to play the class, that's not how you write a guide.

So you run dps gear?

 

Yes I run full DPS gear. I have been bouncing between using a defensive offhand and the offensive one because I havn't yet noticed if the shield procs enough to warrant the slight loss in offensive stats.

 

As I stated in the first post (and should be obvious from my listed stats) you are going to be wearing vindicators gear for this build.

 

I see Accuracy as a wasted stat because the only people who seem to be effected by it are other tanks, and my job isn't to burst DPS down tanks really fast, its to control them and ensure that it is easier for teammates to kill them.

Interesting read but....

 

 

 

with an attitude like that, this cannot end well.

 

If a player goes deep vengeance and considers it to be a viable PvP build then they simply havn't paid attention or do not play with competitive groups. It offers bad DPS and the only benefit of deep veng is not getting knocked around by the billion sorc/sages out there.

 

I consider rage to be a gimmick because it doesn't help you win and only puts up bigger numbers on your screen for your e-peen. Attempting to kill people as a form of control simply is not effective if you are going against 2+ healer teams. Other classes can burst/DPS much harder then a Rage jug and not sacrifice as much.

 

I've yet to run into a Smash Jedi/Warrior who was able to not get completely screwed over by my ability to control them. Sure they have the speed increase, but I can just infinitely spam my AoE slow. I can choke, and backhand them, ruining the small timing windows for a proper smash burst. So really, Rage is just very gimmicky and only really does well in 1v1 or against bad team compositions.

As of 1.1 patch shield works in pvp now, it's been going off way more often with 29-31% shield chance when it only previously blocked default attacks. Edited January 20, 2012 by Sookster

As of 1.1 patch shield works in pvp now, it's been going off way more often with 29-31% shield chance when it only previously blocked default attacks.

 

If that is the case, then Shield offhand will probably be the way to go. I wouldn't go with any other tanking gear though b/c I think it would just gimp overall damage too much.

 

Also, edited main post to not have as much abrasive language

Edited January 20, 2012 by Schwarzwald

I think this is a much more viable spec if you actually want to hurt people in PvP.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crhfzrboZZGr0rkbz.1

I think this is a much more viable spec if you actually want to hurt people in PvP.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crhfzrboZZGr0rkbz.1

 

See the intent of the build. Also the points into Stagger, Payback, Malice and Brutality are all wasted. That is 9 points wasted on abilities you do not benefit much from just so you can get to obliterate?

 

There is no cohesiveness to your build at all. You attempt to get the mid tiered rage abilities, but you have nothing supporting it. You are missing the 30% dmg and CD reduction on smash from the vengeance tree, negating most of the 'gains' you acquire from getting Dominate and Shockwave.

 

Also, my build is about group support while offering decent DPS. You cannot achieve any of this if you don't have the unchanneled force choke. Also without Sweeping Fury I can imagine that you will be rage starved all the time.

 

What role/playstyle do you intend to fill here? You have minimal control and questionable DPS/Burst.

See the intent of the build. Also the points into Stagger, Payback, Malice and Brutality are all wasted. That is 9 points wasted on abilities you do not benefit much from just so you can get to obliterate?

 

There is no cohesiveness to your build at all. You attempt to get the mid tiered rage abilities, but you have nothing supporting it. You are missing the 30% dmg and CD reduction on smash from the vengeance tree, negating most of the 'gains' you acquire from getting Dominate and Shockwave.

 

Also, my build is about group support while offering decent DPS. You cannot achieve any of this if you don't have the unchanneled force choke. Also without Sweeping Fury I can imagine that you will be rage starved all the time.

 

What role/playstyle do you intend to fill here? You have minimal control and questionable DPS/Burst.

 

Sorry. I do 160k damage and 90k protection. You must be doing something wrong.

Sorry. I do 160k damage and 90k protection. You must be doing something wrong.

 

Plus you're missing out on the point of the build.

 

The point of the build is to get the crit smash, Obliterate for more mobility, Unleash on 30 second CD and 100% chance to heal 10% of health.

Sorry. I do 160k damage and 90k protection. You must be doing something wrong.

 

The DMG you do says nothing about your effectiveness in this build, see Merc Spamming Seeker Missles. And the protection you pull is just a sign that you know how to defend as a warrior.

 

Just saying those things doesn't justify the viability of your build in group situations and your DPS seems to be on the same level as mine, except you lack crucial CC skills.

 

You are exchanging some of the best PvP skills in the game for Rage Skills which doesn't significantly change your DPS. The way I see it, your build's damage output is the same as mine, except you have 1 less instant cast stun, far less rage generation and slower CD's on your aoe taunts.

 

Come back with a serious reply next time.

Finally someone who understands the value that Immortal bring to a team in PvP. Too many people here just focus on the big numbers and fail to see how amazing Backhand and Unchanneled Force Choke can be. I run a very similar build as yours (see link below) and I also have full DPS gear (except for the shield).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crhfzrRouRZhMbZM.1

 

Aside for the points in shield spec which is debatable, the only thing that I would change with your build would be to remove the point you put into Crash. Crash really doesn't do much at the end of the day except build resolve on everyone that you Charge to. This can be especially problematic in Huttball when charging the enemy ball carrier can then prevent you from further stunning or force pushing the guy.

Plus you're missing out on the point of the build.

 

The point of the build is to get the crit smash, Obliterate for more mobility, Unleash on 30 second CD and 100% chance to heal 10% of health.

 

-Smash Crit How can you call this a smash crit build when you don't even have the 3 points in vengance for the 30% additional DMG and reduced CD? You are actually going to call this a smash build when you don't have any skills that reduce the CD on smash?

 

-Unleash on 30second CD. You gain the same thing in my build.

 

-Payback. I consider myself extremely well geared. I'm Mostly Champion, 1 piece of centurion and 4 pieces of battlemasters. In DPS gear I have only 16k health. That means the 2 points spent in payback will only net me a 1,600 heal. The only time that this would even be remotely more effective is if you combine the Rakata Stim with Endure Pain. But that is extremely gimmicky and I don't see that as an optimal way to spend your skill points.

 

The gains from payback are extremely insignificant compared to unchanneled force choke or anything in deep immortal.

 

honestly your build makes no sense. Why would you get backhand instead of the unchanneled force choke? If you are trying to rely on the stacking buff from Shockwave, then wouldn't you consider an unchanneled force choke to be much more effective then backhand?

 

As I said before, your build lacks any sort of cohesion.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Schwarzwald

 

 

Aside for the points in shield spec which is debatable, the only thing that I would change with your build would be to remove the point you put into Crash. Crash really doesn't do much at the end of the day except build resolve on everyone that you Charge to. This can be especially problematic in Huttball when charging the enemy ball carrier can then prevent you from further stunning or force pushing the guy.

 

I've had the same concerns as well and it seems to be more counter productive then anything when you consider resolve. Its one point and I think it could be thrown in anywhere without serious consequence. Spending that point in Shield Spec, Accuracy, Unyielding or Malice seems like they would be good alternatives to Crash.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Schwarzwald

-Smash Crit How can you call this a smash crit build when you don't even have the 3 points in vengance for the 30% additional DMG and reduced CD? You are actually going to call this a smash build when you don't have any skills that reduce the CD on smash?

 

-Unleash on 30second CD. You gain the same thing in my build.

 

-Payback. I consider myself extremely well geared. I'm Mostly Champion, 1 piece of centurion and 4 pieces of battlemasters. In DPS gear I have only 16k health. That means the 2 points spent in payback will only net me a 1,600 heal. The only time that this would even be remotely more effective is if you combine the Rakata Stim with Endure Pain. But that is extremely gimmicky and I don't see that as an optimal way to spend your skill points.

 

The gains from payback are extremely insignificant compared to unchanneled force choke or anything in deep immortal.

 

It's not a smash build - but it provides for the benefit of an autocrit after force leaping - it provides for more mobility, and while your build does also put Unleash on a 30 sec cooldown it does not heal you for 10% of your health, a great thing to have if you want to stay up.

 

You can switch the talent point from Shockwave to Force Grip if you want even more mobility.

 

Honestly you are wasting points if you put points into Blade Barricade or Lash Out as most of the really hard hitting abilities (such as those used by Operatives) ignore armor/shield/defense.

 

Going into Rage puts points into Vicious Slash which should be your primary hitting ability.

 

As far as rage generation:

 

You should be able to switch targets for a quick Force Leap/Force push - force leap combo, or alternatively change targets and Saber Throw, as well as using Enrage.

 

I never had problems with this build.

 

Juggernauts need to be mobile all the time, and Obliterate adds significantly to the class as well.

So alternatively this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crhfzrbozZZGd0rdb.1

I'll take Crushing Blow over Obliterate personally. Also I never use Vicious Slash, so spending points to make it better is a big no no for me. Your build also forces you to spend points into useless talents like Strangulate. I can see the build "working" but, it isn't optimal imo.

Strangulate is really the only wasted point, but there's no way around it. I prefer Aiden's build also, except I pick up Force Grip and drop Malice. Edited January 20, 2012 by Vember

Strangulate is really the only wasted point, but there's no way around it. I prefer Aiden's build also, except I pick up Force Grip and drop Malice.

 

I still don't understand how anyone can think that it is 'better' by any definition.

 

If you want damage, then Crush Blow trumps Obliterate and Vicious Slash a thousand fold. There is only a few conditions in which you should use Vicious Slash. That is when every other ability is on CD (Ravage, Force Scream, Smash, Crushing Blow, Sunder) and the only time you should Vicious Slash when all those abilities are on CD is if you have enough rage to use a Smash/Force Scream/Crushing Blow after you've used a vicious slash. Even with skills specced into Vicious Slash, its is mediocre and barely ever goes over the damage from Force Scream or Smash.

 

The fact that so many people are using Vicious Smash is leading me to believe that lots of people do not actually think about the math and DPS windows involved here.

 

Also, the mobility gained from obliterate doesn't seem to be fixing any problems. I've never had problems with mobility as a juggernaut, so going into a low dmg ability just for 'more mobility' seems like you have other issues to sort out in your playstyle. Between force charge, aoe slow, and a channel-less Force choke, you should NEVER have any issues in closing the gap on another player, even a sage.

 

 

Hybrid builds are easier to play, but the results and benefits of the hybrid builds are not as maximized as a more though out and optimized build. What I am trying to say, is that its easier to achieve mediocre results with hybrid builds such as these. But on the other hand, its more difficult to achieve amazing results in a more optimized build. tl;dr hybrid specs are for players who cannot fit into a niche roll and try to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

 

24/0/17 isn't an immortal build, its a hybrid build. If you want to discuss a hybrid build, then please make your own thread about it.

 

Want to know why this build is crap in my opinion? You are speccing into Saber abilities without boosting saber damage in Shii-Cho and I don't know how many times I have to say that sitting in Soresu in Rage tree is probably the WORST rage generation in the game. Another reason why this build is bad is because you are speccing ALOT of points into sources of damage that will be mitigated by Armor and Defenses. Spamming Vicious Slash and using Obliterate against plate is going to be a gigantic waste of time, have fun with that.

 

Also force abilities, you don't really have anything that enhances them at all. Since you seem to be sitting in Soresu the whole time, you are not going to be benefitting from any skills in lower Rage which help out both rage generation and Force ability CD's.

 

Your just throwing points into some random areas, but they don't help out other parts of your build. Effectively at any point in time you are only utilizing 1/4 of your skill points spent, meanwhile the build I've posted can make use of those skill points for a majority of the time spent in combat.

 

This is the last post I will be making addressing this hybrid crap, take it to another thread if you want to discuss your build.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Schwarzwald

Schwarzwald, u run soresu with the immortal build tho? or u stance dance?