The Jedi never enslaved the Clones. They Jedi actually treated the Clones better than the vast majority of the Republic, viewing them as more than just tools for war. The SITH ordered the creation of the Clone Army using a Jedi's identity, the REPUBLIC (under the influence of the Sith) decided to use them to fight the Clone Wars, the JEDI SERVE the Republic, thus they fought alongside the clones. In doing so they (the Jedi) actually cared about their (the Clones) deaths and well being, contrary to many of the naturally born officers of the Republic, who didn't mind sacrificing more clones if it got them their objectives faster.

The only person to ever come close to claiming that the Jedi enslaved the clones was Karen Traviss, She Who Destroys Verisimilitude, and she is to be ignored with extreme prejudice.

The Jedi never enslaved the Clones.

Not seen anybody say they did.

The Jedi never enslaved the Clones. They Jedi actually treated the Clones better than the vast majority of the Republic, viewing them as more than just tools for war. The SITH ordered the creation of the Clone Army using a Jedi's identity, the REPUBLIC (under the influence of the Sith) decided to use them to fight the Clone Wars, the JEDI SERVE the Republic, thus they fought alongside the clones. In doing so they (the Jedi) actually cared about their (the Clones) deaths and well being, contrary to many of the naturally born officers of the Republic, who didn't mind sacrificing more clones if it got them their objectives faster.

 

The only person to ever come close to claiming that the Jedi enslaved the clones was Karen Traviss, She Who Destroys Verisimilitude, and she is to be ignored with extreme prejudice.

no syfodias orderd the clone army on his own accord

The only person to ever come close to claiming that the Jedi enslaved the clones was Karen Traviss, She Who Destroys Verisimilitude, and she is to be ignored with extreme prejudice.

Wow, little bit of dislike for Traviss huh? Give it up, she wrote some good material and it wasn't till the end (order 66, Imperial Commandos) that people started to take issue with her.

Actually yes, they did enslave the clones. They are living beings bred and trained exclusively to fight for people they do not know, nor care for. Had they been raised traditionally, maybe given the ability to learn other job skills, many would likely have chosen not to fight if they could help it. The Jedi justified the use of this army of people programmed to obey them as "to save the Republic" and many reasoned that clone where enough like droids that they didn't matter.

Now yes, some jedi showed affection towards their troops. But they never gave the troops a choice to do something else. Heck a wounded clone was soaked in bacta for a month or so and thrown back onto the line. The casualty rates for many clone units was incredible. Meanwhile, the Republic never instituted a draft, they didn't use the clones to bolster their army, the clones where their army. Essentially everyone else in the Republic was free to fight or not, but the clones didn't get a choice. On top of that they had no representation in the Senate and they where actually sold to the jedi in order to defend the Republic.

Selling living people, nope definitely not slavery! Even some slaves in the Confederate states where treated well, doesn't mean they weren't slaves.

Edit: before you try the whole "It was the Republic not the Jedi" the Jedi where complicit the act of buying the men, and using them as soldiers regardless of how they treated them.

Of course the clones are slaves. it doesn't matter how 'well' they are kept and how 'nice' the Jedi are to them. In the end they've been bred for a purpose and sold without their permission (not that it would matter as they have been brainwashed) to the Republic to fight in a war that they have no vested interest in.

What we have here is a textbook example of slavery through conditioning. Is it justified? Probably not. After all what exactly are they fighting for? A broken democracy tainted by corruption and greed?

And like StarSquirrel says, the Jedi justified this. So they are solicit in the crime.

EDIT: Also noting that Jedi such as Shaak Ti actually helped train the clones. Trying to distance the Jedi from the Republic just isn't going to work - they are one and the same. And hey look I found a quote from an infuriated Jedi:

"So how do we justify what we are doing now? Breeding men without choice, and without freedom, to fight and die for us? When do the means cease to justify the end? Where is our society heading? Where are our ideals, and what are we without them? If we give in to expedience in this way, where do we draw the line between ourselves and those we find unacceptably evil? I have no answer, Masters. Do you?"

If the Jedi wanted to end it, they could have done so. But they didn't even voice their concern. They are therefore guilty of mass slavery, I guess we should add that to mass genocide as well?

Of course the clones are slaves. it doesn't matter how 'well' they are kept and how 'nice' the Jedi are to them. In the end they've been bred for a purpose and sold without their permission (not that it would matter as they have been brainwashed) to the Republic to fight in a war that they have no vested interest in.

 

What we have here is a textbook example of slavery through conditioning. Is it justified? Probably not. After all what exactly are they fighting for? A broken democracy tainted by corruption and greed?

 

And like StarSquirrel says, the Jedi justified this. So they are solicit in the crime.

 

EDIT: Also noting that Jedi such as Shaak Ti actually helped train the clones. Trying to distance the Jedi from the Republic just isn't going to work - they are one and the same. And hey look I found a quote from an infuriated Jedi:

 

"So how do we justify what we are doing now? Breeding men without choice, and without freedom, to fight and die for us? When do the means cease to justify the end? Where is our society heading? Where are our ideals, and what are we without them? If we give in to expedience in this way, where do we draw the line between ourselves and those we find unacceptably evil? I have no answer, Masters. Do you?"

 

If the Jedi wanted to end it, they could have done so. But they didn't even voice their concern. They are therefore guilty of mass slavery, I guess we should add that to mass genocide as well?

This is more of an argument that cloning itself is evil, because those Mandalorian clones were bred for war. They were raised and age too quickly to have a normal life (which is why Palpatine orders more to be grown after he creates the Empire in "Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader"). They were also bred with orders and didn't seem to have any issues with their duties. The only time we ever really see a clone trooper argue with orders is when Order 66 is issued, which should tell you something. The Jedi and troopers had inside jokes, the Jedi were respected by them if not completely understood, and vice versa.

If the Jedi stopped using the clones, they would have lost the war. And the point is that the entire Clone Wars, including growing the clones, was orchestrated by Palpatine/Sidious to put the Jedi in a situation where they would lose on all sides: spiritually by being in a war which they are morally against, physically by Order 66, and plus if you want to count the whole ritual towards the dark side that Palpatine and their master did, it really makes it difficult to judge anything the Jedi did during the Clone Wars. They lost, Palpatine won, the end. No need to blame the victims, I'm sure they realized their faults as they were being shot in the back.

The Jedi never enslaved the Clones. They Jedi actually treated the Clones better than the vast majority of the Republic, viewing them as more than just tools for war. The SITH ordered the creation of the Clone Army using a Jedi's identity, the REPUBLIC (under the influence of the Sith) decided to use them to fight the Clone Wars, the JEDI SERVE the Republic, thus they fought alongside the clones. In doing so they (the Jedi) actually cared about their (the Clones) deaths and well being, contrary to many of the naturally born officers of the Republic, who didn't mind sacrificing more clones if it got them their objectives faster.

 

The only person to ever come close to claiming that the Jedi enslaved the clones was Karen Traviss, She Who Destroys Verisimilitude, and she is to be ignored with extreme prejudice.

Wow wrong on many levels. Sorry Beniybong said it best. Were the clones give a choice? No. That right there is the essence of slavery. Did KT screw up a few things in some of the Legacy books? Yeap. But her clone wars books and Republic Commando books, asked some hard questions no other author bothered to ask.

And for that she gets ridicule? Shame on you.

This is more of an argument that cloning itself is evil, because those Mandalorian clones were bred for war. They were raised and age too quickly to have a normal life (which is why Palpatine orders more to be grown after he creates the Empire in "Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader"). They were also bred with orders and didn't seem to have any issues with their duties. The only time we ever really see a clone trooper argue with orders is when Order 66 is issued, which should tell you something. The Jedi and troopers had inside jokes, the Jedi were respected by them if not completely understood, and vice versa.

 

If the Jedi stopped using the clones, they would have lost the war. And the point is that the entire Clone Wars, including growing the clones, was orchestrated by Palpatine/Sidious to put the Jedi in a situation where they would lose on all sides: spiritually by being in a war which they are morally against, physically by Order 66, and plus if you want to count the whole ritual towards the dark side that Palpatine and their master did, it really makes it difficult to judge anything the Jedi did during the Clone Wars. They lost, Palpatine won, the end. No need to blame the victims, I'm sure they realized their faults as they were being shot in the back.

You realize that much of that last paragraph showed how the Jedi actually were using a slave army and it was in fact wrong? How else would they lose 'spiritually' the war was justified as the rebellious factions acted first by creating a secret army to conquer the Republic. War makes people desperate, the Jedi got desperate. If someone handed me they keys to an army when I was about to be invaded, I'd be all for it.

Yes, we can blame what is supposed to be (per G-cannon) the greatest incarnation of the Jedi order in SW lore for using a slave army and not sticking up for their values.

No, the Republic would not have been completely defenseless without the clones. Without clones they'd have had to institute a draft like any other Democracy faced with war. They chose to use a ready-made army of slaves in order to get a leg-up and save face (ie, no republic world would be happy with a draft) even if it meant compromising their values.

Slick? remember him? Betrayed his own brothers... Yeah a lot of clones had issues with how they where treated. On top of that we have Kal Skirata and the clone commandos who wrestled with this issue through out the clone commando series.

To the argument that non-jedi commanders valued clones less, yeah sure maybe. But most of the clones where directly under the command of Jedi or other clone generals. It is relatively uncommon to have a non-jedi, non-clone officer who isn't of a rank where troops would be chess pieces anyway regardless of origin.

And yes, our arguments are against the evils of cloning. That said, the Jedi actively supported the breeding, enslaving, and use of clone soldiers. They are as guilty as anyone.

You realize that much of that last paragraph showed how the Jedi actually were using a slave army and it was in fact wrong? How else would they lose 'spiritually' the war was justified as the rebellious factions acted first by creating a secret army to conquer the Republic. War makes people desperate, the Jedi got desperate. If someone handed me they keys to an army when I was about to be invaded, I'd be all for it.

 

Yes, we can blame what is supposed to be (per G-cannon) the greatest incarnation of the Jedi order in SW lore for using a slave army and not sticking up for their values.

 

No, the Republic would not have been completely defenseless without the clones. Without clones they'd have had to institute a draft like any other Democracy faced with war. They chose to use a ready-made army of slaves in order to get a leg-up and save face (ie, no republic world would be happy with a draft) even if it meant compromising their values.

 

Slick? remember him? Betrayed his own brothers... Yeah a lot of clones had issues with how they where treated. On top of that we have Kal Skirata and the clone commandos who wrestled with this issue through out the clone commando series.

 

To the argument that non-jedi commanders valued clones less, yeah sure maybe. But most of the clones where directly under the command of Jedi or other clone generals. It is relatively uncommon to have a non-jedi, non-clone officer who isn't of a rank where troops would be chess pieces anyway regardless of origin.

 

And yes, our arguments are against the evils of cloning. That said, the Jedi actively supported the breeding, enslaving, and use of clone soldiers. They are as guilty as anyone.

I just don't agree. The most I know of the clones is in the movies and a few books, and from what I've seen immediately after the war ended they weren't like "Oh yeah, screw those slaver jedi, they had it coming." they were like "Hey, those guys were on our side, did they really betray us?" So if the majority of the clones didn't have an issue with it, I don't see why you do.

Wow, little bit of dislike for Traviss huh? Give it up, she wrote some good material and it wasn't till the end (order 66, Imperial Commandos) that people started to take issue with her.

 

Actually yes, they did enslave the clones. They are living beings bred and trained exclusively to fight for people they do not know, nor care for. Had they been raised traditionally, maybe given the ability to learn other job skills, many would likely have chosen not to fight if they could help it. The Jedi justified the use of this army of people programmed to obey them as "to save the Republic" and many reasoned that clone where enough like droids that they didn't matter.

 

Now yes, some jedi showed affection towards their troops. But they never gave the troops a choice to do something else. Heck a wounded clone was soaked in bacta for a month or so and thrown back onto the line. The casualty rates for many clone units was incredible. Meanwhile, the Republic never instituted a draft, they didn't use the clones to bolster their army, the clones where their army. Essentially everyone else in the Republic was free to fight or not, but the clones didn't get a choice. On top of that they had no representation in the Senate and they where actually sold to the jedi in order to defend the Republic.

 

Selling living people, nope definitely not slavery! Even some slaves in the Confederate states where treated well, doesn't mean they weren't slaves.

 

Edit: before you try the whole "It was the Republic not the Jedi" the Jedi where complicit the act of buying the men, and using them as soldiers regardless of how they treated them.

Holy. Hell.

Thank you. Finally.

People must understand that just because the majority of the clones were 'happy' with their situation doesn't makes it morally acceptable. You can condition people to be happy with many things, but if we go down that route, and favour emotions and feelings over moral standards then we can justify everything and anything. Morals collapse, society collapses, and something far more ugly and alien rears its head. Anyone here read Brave New World? Nuff said I feel.

Nor should we really be pinning this on the Sith. The Jedi were not aware of their presence or the true implications of the war. All they saw is a means to an end, to end the Separatist threat - and they were quite happy to use complicit slaves to further their goals. Simple as. Dance around it all you like but in today's society, such a course of action would be condemned. What we have here is playing god, and humanity isn't ready for that responsibility.

And for that she gets ridicule? Shame on you.

I greatly enjoy it when this topic is explored.

The clones were happy ( or at least a great many of them were) because they were programmed to be happy and fulfilled by fighting and dying for the republic. Just because most were happy with their situation doesn't mean it's moral, especially when that happiness is artificial.

I'd also like to address the claim that the Jedi treated the clones well or better than the rest of the republic. After watching all 3 prequels as well seasons 1-4 of the clone wars tv series, I have to respectfully disagree with the assessment that the Jedi's treatment of the clones was exceptional. Granted aside from Pong Krell none of the Jedi went out of their way to treat the clones badly per se, but most of the Jedi treated the clones with indifference. I don't recall ever seeing a Jedi question on whether the clones should have to fight or have other basic rights, and I don't recall the Jedi being overly concerned with the clones safety and their right to life. If anything the Jedi treat the clones exactly how you would expect a disposable tool of war to be treated.

I just don't agree. The most I know of the clones is in the movies and a few books, and from what I've seen immediately after the war ended they weren't like "Oh yeah, screw those slaver jedi, they had it coming." they were like "Hey, those guys were on our side, did they really betray us?" So if the majority of the clones didn't have an issue with it, I don't see why you do.

How bout, they were not given a choice, were not paid, hell most times treated as disposable units. The reason why I and the person you were responding to have an issue with it, they were never given the choice, they had it forced upon them and programmed into them. May as well swap out droids for the clones like the seps did.

How bout, they were not given a choice, were not paid, hell most times treated as disposable units. The reason why I and the person you were responding to have an issue with it, they were never given the choice, they had it forced upon them and programmed into them. May as well swap out droids for the clones like the seps did.

They were (technically) Mandalorian clones. They live to fight, they enjoy it, they aren't alive unless they're in a fight. I guarantee you given money, 99% of them would buy some cool shades and jump right back into the war. Has nothing to do with the programming. If you want to blame anyone for it, blame whoever made the cloning process and Jango Fett for volunteering the template, OR Palpatine for being the one who literally used them as tools. He literally describes the Clone Wars as a win-win situation with no real losses on either side, so if you want to blame people (even fictional characters) blame the right ones.

They were (technically) Mandalorian clones. They live to fight, they enjoy it, they aren't alive unless they're in a fight. I guarantee you given money, 99% of them would buy some cool shades and jump right back into the war. Has nothing to do with the programming. If you want to blame anyone for it, blame whoever made the cloning process and Jango Fett for volunteering the template, OR Palpatine for being the one who literally used them as tools. He literally describes the Clone Wars as a win-win situation with no real losses on either side, so if you want to blame people (even fictional characters) blame the right ones.

and you know what, if they were given the choice and volunteered, guess what you now have an all volunteer army much like any armed forces today. That is morally acceptable. But much as you want to say it, they were NOT given that option. Why it slips into slavery.

and you know what, if they were given the choice and volunteered, guess what you now have an all volunteer army much like any armed forces today. That is morally acceptable. But much as you want to say it, they were NOT given that option. Why it slips into slavery.

I just don't buy it. There were way more clones than Jedi and no one was keeping them imprisoned, they were in the war because that's what they were made for. I think whatever author's choice it was to bring it up is cool and I respect it, but I don't agree.

I just don't buy it. There were way more clones than Jedi and no one was keeping them imprisoned, they were in the war because that's what they were made for. I think whatever author's choice it was to bring it up is cool and I respect it, but I don't agree.

Let me put it to you this way. Clones were not drafted, not given a choice, weren't even paid, just ordered into service, not given any time frame of discharge even after the supposed defeat of the separatists.

It's like being drafted into the US Army for life, and you have zero control over that AT ALL. Being bred for it doesn't mean anything. It is the absence of free will to choose your fate, like any sentient being has the right to do. That equates to slavery, or at best which is a nicer way to say it, indentured servitude. And the Jedi merely condoned and went along with it out of expediency. As did the rest of the Republic.

Sure Palpatine/Sideous was pulling all the strings, but most Jedi didn't even stop to ask the questions, and when those few did ask, there was silence. No, my friend, in the end, it was slavery.

Let me put it to you this way. Clones were not drafted, not given a choice, weren't even paid, just ordered into service, not given any time frame of discharge even after the supposed defeat of the separatists.

 

It's like being drafted into the US Army for life, and you have zero control over that AT ALL. Being bred for it doesn't mean anything. It is the absence of free will to choose your fate, like any sentient being has the right to do. That equates to slavery, or at best which is a nicer way to say it, indentured servitude. And the Jedi merely condoned and went along with it out of expediency. As did the rest of the Republic.

 

Sure Palpatine/Sideous was pulling all the strings, but most Jedi didn't even stop to ask the questions, and when those few did ask, there was silence. No, my friend, in the end, it was slavery.

^ Couldn't have said it any better myself.

They were (technically) Mandalorian clones. They live to fight, they enjoy it, they aren't alive unless they're in a fight. I guarantee you given money, 99% of them would buy some cool shades and jump right back into the war. Has nothing to do with the programming. If you want to blame anyone for it, blame whoever made the cloning process and Jango Fett for volunteering the template, OR Palpatine for being the one who literally used them as tools. He literally describes the Clone Wars as a win-win situation with no real losses on either side, so if you want to blame people (even fictional characters) blame the right ones.

And again, the Jedi are solicit in all of this. They may have not started it but they let it pass. If you allowed murder and rape to go unpunished under your govt. would that be acceptable. No blame the murders and the rapists, the govt and completely innocent of any wrong doing despite allowing it and encouraging it.

I just don't buy it. There were way more clones than Jedi and no one was keeping them imprisoned, they were in the war because that's what they were made for. I think whatever author's choice it was to bring it up is cool and I respect it, but I don't agree.

Because that is how they are treated.

See..... No.

That's not how they were treated, Jedi would selflessly risk themselves to save clones.

Plo Koon wouldn't let the clones in his pod die in the Abreggado system, Yoda would have been Far more nimble and able in the Forest on the moon of Toydaria if he hadn't wanted his clones to survive...

Whereas droids? Their Supreme-General literally smacks their heads off

I dont agree with the notion the clones were free men, I sit in the middle, but you can't say they were treated as droids.

See..... No.

 

That's not how they were treated, Jedi would selflessly risk themselves to save clones.

Plo Koon wouldn't let the clones in his pod die in the Abreggado system, Yoda would have been Far more nimble and able in the Forest on the moon of Toydaria if he hadn't wanted his clones to survive...

 

Whereas droids? Their Supreme-General literally smacks their heads off

 

I dont agree with the notion the clones were free men, I sit in the middle, but you can't say they were treated as droids.

That is indeed true, but the Republic moreso than the jedi treated them as such. Just faceless disposable units they could use to win the war.

And the Jedi merely stood there, took command of the troops as Generals and raised little to no moral objection to the treatment of their men. And they were men. I mean hell, even the enhanced aging process I feel was a crime against them.