PvP stats need to go. It destroys the balance and removes the skill.

It's going to drive away people from doing PvP at 50 and only going to get worse over time.

I hope when they introduce player rating in march they put in another tier of gear that requires rating to get. And no i don't come from WoW arenas. I just think its a good concept. Skill should equal better gear than grind gear.

 

Personally I don't like arenas, but I think rating/arenas are a crucial part of making WoW's PvP gear treadmill "work." Small games (2v2, 3v3, 5v5) that don't require faction balance, plus large battlegroups for cross-server queues give you enough people to pull from to where you can do match making based on rating.

 

Rating alone without the other features to increase the pool to pull from/lower the number/faction required won't help. Queue times would go up, and you're more likely to get matched for a no-win scenario. This will only get worse if/when additional tiers of gear are added. So as much as I wish it would go to the other direction, it seems like it would be better to copy the rest of WoW's model (arenas, battlegroups) rather than only the gear inflation part.

 

Even if these things were adopted by SWTOR though, they would still require a sufficient pool of players to work with, (not to mention the people that simply hate arenas/battlegroups). That makes less gear-dependent models seem less risky, IMO. The 10-49 approach to PvP seems to work better for SWTOR than what happens at 50. 50 seems like it's based on a different game entirely.

Its not going anywhere, just accept it. It's there to encourage people who pvp to get their gear from pvp... It's a good system, it means the people who spend their time in pvp can be more competitive in that field than those that dont. I keep reading wow players want this and that etc - it's you anti expertise people that have the issue here.

This is a trinity based mmo, with a pvp stat, it has alot of similarities to wow and rift, so stop pretending it's a conpletley different genre, it's an mmo borrowing alot of ideas from the top mmos.

You start letting people just use whatever pve gear you want and then what do you think will happen? Raid guild stomping everyone, a complete nightmare for the devs to balance. Pvp and pve should be separate, most people like it that way. If people can't handle earning the gear through warzones and being out geared then what is your solution? You will always be out geared one way it another.

The problem with you anti expertise people is YOU want this to be a different game, not the "wow" people, I don't even play wow, just because I like a system and you don't doesn't make you superior.

Bottom line is the debs went with this choice, and you have to accept most people don't have any issue at all, it doesn't take long - and if you can't handle it, then you should probably stick to pve or play a game with a system that more suits your play style. Don't start stereotyping people because they don't have a problem with it

I don't think Expertise needs to be removed, it definitely needs to be rebalanced though. I just hit 50 and whenever I enter a WZ I just get absolutely smashed. I love PvP and this makes it very hard to enjoy the PvP experience.

 

Why exactly does this stat INCREASE damage done to players? Why not just have it reduce damage taken from players? Why does it increase healing? Just alter the trauma debuff. I don't understand what BioWare was thinking when they made this stat. You need to rethink how this stat works and you need to change it. It will cause problems for new players in the future.

 

I do like how level 1 - 49 is scaled so everyone is about even on stats.

Oh really? A couple of pieces? How about most.

 

Fine, here you go.

 

Champion Force-Mystic's Robe

+86 Endurance

+87 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+44 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi Force-Mystic's Robe

+98 Endurance

+114 Willpower

+44 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Winner? Columi

 

Champion Force-Mystic's Gloves

+94 Endurance

+75 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+53 Critical Rating

+48 Surge Rating

 

Columi Force-Mystic's Gloves

+116 Endurance

+93 Willpower

+53 Critical Rating

+48 Surge Rating

 

Winner? Columi

 

Champion Force-Mystic's Headgear

+94 Endurance

+75 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+53 Critical Rating

+48 Surge Rating

 

Columi Force-Mystic's Headgear

+116 Endurance

+93 Willpower

+53 Critical Rating

+48 Surge Rating

 

Winner? Columi

 

Champion Force-Mystic's Boots

+86 Endurance

+87 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+44 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi Force-Mystic's Boots

+98 Endurance

+114 Willpower

+44 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Winner? Columi yet again

 

Champion Force-Mystic's Lower Robe

+94 Endurance

+75 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+53 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi Force-Mystic's Lower Robe

+116 Endurance

+93 Willpower

+53 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Winner, wait for it..... Columi

 

Champion Stalker's Waistwrap

+56 Endurance

+77 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+10 Power

 

Columi Stalker's Waistwrap

+66 Endurance

+97 Willpower

+10 Power

 

Another amazing win by Columi

 

Champion Force-Master's Bracers

+56 Endurance

+77 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+10 Critical Rating

 

Columi Force-Master's Bracers

+66 Endurance

+97 Willpower

+10 Critical Rating

 

Columi wins again

 

Champion Force-Master's Relay

+70 Endurance

+77 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+41 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi Force-Master's Relay

+80 Endurance

+97 Willpower

+41 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi wins, wow does it sound like I am repeating myself?

 

Champion Force-Master's Implant

+76 Endurance

+66 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+48 Critical Rating

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi Force-Master's Implant

+93 Endurance

+80 Willpower

+48 Critical Rating

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Columi wins!

 

I think I have proven my point. Go spread your ignorance elsewhere. Next time you make a statement like that, back it up with facts.

 

This is wrong because expertise scales better than those other stats.

 

point by point itd take hundreds of points of your primary stat to get the flat % damage boost granted by Expertise. 500 expertise gives the kind of damage that itd take thousands of points of other stats to compensate for. It also is the only stat to boost damage AND damage reduction by those high ammounts. just because columni has higher "normal" stats doesnt mean its giving the same effects..anything without expertise is weak in endgame pvp.

What I don't get is why doesn't expertise only make you get damage reduction in PvP only. Why does it also boost damage? That seems a bit outrageous to me. Does PvE gear do that too for when you fight mobs?

*********** genius.

 

I thought it was stupid in WoW.

 

I thought it was stupid in Rift.

 

same holds true for TOR.

 

There is no point to this attribute other than to grief new PVPers.

What I don't get is why doesn't expertise only make you get damage reduction in PvP only. Why does it also boost damage? That seems a bit outrageous to me. Does PvE gear do that too for when you fight mobs?

 

It does in a way, since you get more base stats on the pve gear.

Also I believe the reason you get damage and damage reduction is so they cancel each other out,

when facing an equally geared opponents, while still seperating the PvE and PvP progression paths.

There is no point to this attribute other than to grief new PVPers.

 

Well, if you remove it then one of two things is going to happen

 

Either 1) PVE gear will beat everything PVP players have, so players who don't like the PVE endgame will be forced to still go through it to gear up for PVP,

Or 2) PVP gear will beat PVE gear in PVE, annoying the PVE players who suddenly see PVP players being more sought after for their ops than longtime PVE players.

Problem I see with most new 50's is that they're running around in level 40 PVE gear which gives them 10-12k HP TOTAL think about it. Gear up, buy some mods with credits, get some relics hotkey all your skills get at least 14k hp. When my friend and I hit 50 we were wondering why we were getting smashed so hard and doing so little damage, turns out we weren't geared at all and used pve bindings for PVP. After gearing up we did significantly better. Expertise is part of the problem but so is the majority of the players using level 40 gear thinking they were going to get bolstered. Nope.

Well, if you remove it then one of two things is going to happen

 

Either 1) PVE gear will beat everything PVP players have, so players who don't like the PVE endgame will be forced to still go through it to gear up for PVP,

Or 2) PVP gear will beat PVE gear in PVE, annoying the PVE players who suddenly see PVP players being more sought after for their ops than longtime PVE players.

 

I totally agree with you. We need pvp stat to let people play like they want to. However current solution has serious flaws and should be fixed. Basically we need expertise but at the same time gear progression needs to be toned down. All the details were written in this topic: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=238982

This is wrong because expertise scales better than those other stats.

 

point by point itd take hundreds of points of your primary stat to get the flat % damage boost granted by Expertise. 500 expertise gives the kind of damage that itd take thousands of points of other stats to compensate for. It also is the only stat to boost damage AND damage reduction by those high ammounts. just because columni has higher "normal" stats doesnt mean its giving the same effects..anything without expertise is weak in endgame pvp.

 

This.

 

Expertize has to go.

But by the time PvP gear progression needs to be made much more time-taking (preferably to be longer than PvE progression, but not requiring big team of players, so progress for solo players would still exist at lvl50 just as it does at 1-49), and PvP gear needs to have stats equal to PvE gear (maybe few points here / there difference to make it bit more than just a copy&paste with different skin, eg. PvE gear is 4-5 points better in defense, PvP is 4-5 points better in offense) and less skins to choose from (yes, that's a request: add more varied skins for PvE gear, cause this columi & rakata-being-copy-of-columi gear is... simply put: ugly).

I'd love to see an MMO offer incentives that are only usable OUTSIDE the PvP zones and everyone is given equal item level basic sets inside it. No more hamster wheel for a PvP stat, instead it rewards coin and gear usable for PvE, crafting mats, speeders, fluff gear, achievements that mean something because it was as fair as possible, etc.

 

Put the rewards on the outside, put the balance and fair play on the inside. There's your "bolster" system.

 

I have 300+ expertise and rank 48 atm - I'm not speaking from the bottom end of the pile here.

 

^^This in every way!

 

I was a duel wielding warrior in Rift...the valour rating made me simply unkillable 1 v 1 against a lower valour player. I will, however, caveat that the expertise cap of 10% doesn't make "that" much of a difference in this game.

 

Although this isn't meant to be a "rock-paper-scissors" style game (ala Warhammer), we all know that some classes are considerably tougher (and some considerably easier) than others 1 v 1.

 

Just my 2 cents...

Expertise only widens the gap for new level 50 players and discourages fresh 50s to pvp.

The game is just over 1 and half months since official release and the gear gap is insane already. This should not happen in any mmo. KIlls the incentive to reach 50 and continue.

Same thing happened in warhammer and we know how that panned out.

using the tool i made here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240685

 

to see the difference in damage between two people, where one has expertise and the other doesn't, input the same offensive stats on both set one and two, then input an expertise amount (500 is a good average) into the offensive stats of set one, and the defensive stats of set two.

 

in my example, both have:

1200 primary stat (strength/aim/willpower/cunning)

600 force/tech

600 power

250 crit rating

100 surge rating

100 accuracy

306-459 weapon damage

 

both hitting the same defence values:

4000 armour

 

the guy with expertise hits for 1254 damage per second

the guy without expertise hits for 1022 damage per second

 

that's per second, not per ability use, so the damage on individual abilities is actually inflated beyond that value. it also means that the actual difference in damage is 464 per second, so the guy without expertise is going to be burned down a lot quicker.

 

here's the thing though, the majority of fresh 50's won't have anywhere near equal stats to the guy with 500 expertise, so the difference in damage per second is likely to be a lot higher.

 

FYI, i'm running almost 600 expertise, and it's VERY obvious to me when i'm hitting someone who has none. it's like a hot knife through butter... and i'm tank spec lol.

Well, if you remove it then one of two things is going to happen

 

Either 1) PVE gear will beat everything PVP players have, so players who don't like the PVE endgame will be forced to still go through it to gear up for PVP,

Or 2) PVP gear will beat PVE gear in PVE, annoying the PVE players who suddenly see PVP players being more sought after for their ops than longtime PVE players.

 

OR... you can just bolster everyone to a set standard regardless of gear or levels. Now there is no advantage gained by the raiders and their gear. Its the easiest fix, and most elegant solution. The most people will have fun this way, and keep their subs going.

 

It amazes me that yet another company like BW would make this same mistake when there was already ample evidence of gear chase based PvP failing hard core in other MMOs. Didn't anyone at BW do any research? Maybe they will listen to the overwhelming majority in the ToR community who are stating quite loudly that gear chase PvP is bad for the game, not fun for the players, and leads to non participation, and even canceled accounts.

There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

What you say is disgusting. It seems you think everyone started MMOs with WoW, just like you. And never done PvP before.

 

This is madness.

 

Many PvP players are actually coming from old school MMOs where PvP was the main topic.

 

Shame on you for daring to say such bad things.

well, to be fair... anyone who came to SWTOR expecting it to be the next big pvp game was a bit silly.

 

however, many proper oldschool pvpers (my self included) came here just because it's something new. it's okay for us to be disappointed with the current stat of the game, however we shouldn't go out with pitchforks just yet.

 

there are many things they could do to fix pvp in the game, removal of expertise is just one of them, although by most counts it's probably the most important one.

 

the game has a long ways to go... and if i'm honest, i doubt it'll ever get there because after all, PVP is not the games primary concern, it never was, it never will be. it was built around PVE, and because of that it will always have PVP limitations.

 

sad but true. the days of real pvp MMO's is gone, and that's largely because it was a niche within a niche, and when everyone wants to win, nobody likes to lose, and if they keep losing because the pvp is purely skill based (ultima/daoc etc.) that's a bigger hit to their ego than "i lost because i'm undergeared... so let's grind some more gear!".

The argument of who starts a game with PVP in mind versus PVE is completely inconsequential and sidelines the true issue.

 

New people getting into the game are deterred from PVP and therefor deterred from playing in general.

That is the real issue.

 

Even as young as SWTOR is, there is already a Strong PVPer Population which is growing rapidly. This strong population (SPP) is naturally made of the most competitive people. They buy the game early, the play intensely early, they hit 50 within days, they gather valor at crazy amounts, they even take advantage of "bugs" or the lack of fixes like the pre-50-bracket days and Ilum spawn camping days. I'm not impugning their motives or tactics, I'm saying they exist.

 

New people who are more casual or for whatever reason more late to the game, will have a steep uphill climb to enter the PVP portion of the game. They have to face those who are not only far more experienced and better players, but also outfitted with stats that are incredibly superior. Expertise reduces damage taken, improves damage given and increases heals received. All of this on ONE stat? A stat which can only be received through an immense amount of PVP played.. against a community composed of those who already have the stat in abundance?

 

This is like saying that everyone who hits driving age this year can get a license but next year only those who have an existing license can apply for one? Huh-what?!?

 

BioWare take heed. For simply marketing reasons you are going to restrict your customer base instead of increase it. There is a huge untapped market of both competitive and casual players out there who would enjoy SWTOR. Both groups are dissuaded by the expertise system.

Edited February 2, 2012 by endikux

The question is will more people play a game that has gear in it or that doesn't have gear in it?

 

The majority should be how most mainstream games are designed and only niche games for the minority of players.

 

I alway slook for games with no gear and no levels.

using the tool i made here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240685

 

to see the difference in damage between two people, where one has expertise and the other doesn't, input the same offensive stats on both set one and two, then input an expertise amount (500 is a good average) into the offensive stats of set one, and the defensive stats of set two.

 

in my example, both have:

1200 primary stat (strength/aim/willpower/cunning)

600 force/tech

600 power

250 crit rating

100 surge rating

100 accuracy

306-459 weapon damage

 

both hitting the same defence values:

4000 armour

 

the guy with expertise hits for 1254 damage per second

the guy without expertise hits for 1022 damage per second

 

that's per second, not per ability use, so the damage on individual abilities is actually inflated beyond that value. it also means that the actual difference in damage is 464 per second, so the guy without expertise is going to be burned down a lot quicker.

 

here's the thing though, the majority of fresh 50's won't have anywhere near equal stats to the guy with 500 expertise, so the difference in damage per second is likely to be a lot higher.

 

FYI, i'm running almost 600 expertise, and it's VERY obvious to me when i'm hitting someone who has none. it's like a hot knife through butter... and i'm tank spec lol.

 

 

Please delete your post because it assumes equal stats on pvp and pve gear and this is incorrect.

The argument of who starts a game with PVP in mind versus PVE is completely inconsequential and sidelines the true issue.

 

New people getting into the game are deterred from PVP and therefor deterred from playing in general.

That is the real issue.

 

Even as young as SWTOR is, there is already a Strong PVPer Population which is growing rapidly. This strong population (SPP) is naturally made of the most competitive people. They buy the game early, the play intensely early, they hit 50 within days, they gather valor at crazy amounts, they even take advantage of "bugs" or the lack of fixes like the pre-50-bracket days and Ilum spawn camping days. I'm not impugning their motives or tactics, I'm saying they exist.

 

New people who are more casual or for whatever reason more late to the game, will have a steep uphill climb to enter the PVP portion of the game. They have to face those who are not only far more experienced and better players, but also outfitted with stats that are incredibly superior. Expertise reduces damage taken, improves damage given and increases heals received. All of this on ONE stat? A stat which can only be received through an immense amount of PVP played.. against a community composed of those who already have the stat in abundance?

 

This is like saying that everyone who hits driving age this year can get a license but next year only those who have an existing license can apply for one? Huh-what?!?

 

BioWare take heed. For simply marketing reasons you are going to restrict your customer base instead of increase it. There is a huge untapped market of both competitive and casual players out there who would enjoy SWTOR. Both groups are dissuaded by the expertise system.

 

Wrong, new people to this game are discouraged from doing anything because they can't directly join their friends without first gearig up(according to you).

 

People can be carried through lower difficulty with friends or guilders and can be carried in pvp by those same people by getting wins.

 

Anyone who says expertise deteres people from joining pvp please stop postin because your points are flawed and irrelevant. You clutter this forum with useless posts and bring nothing to the pvp discussion. Expertise is fine a fresh 50 cant do hard modes just like said person can't compete against top geared pvpers but you will eventually get the gear even by losing and they can use pve gear just like the pvers do to get started to help you do better.

 

Once the next tier is out that will decide if pvp gear needs to be easier to get because everyone will be working on the next teir of gear that makes the old starting point to far behind. But if they don't add new pve gear that helps people skip a step then pvp hell week will always exist and everyone will have to go through it just to pve

I already posted my opinions on this but look at the game a year from now:

 

New players hit 50, they join pvp against tier 4 or 5 geared pvp players ... imagine the carnage.

 

There would need to be a new pvp tier: 8 new level 50 players join a raid vs 1 pvp geared player. Titanic Raid boss encounter ensues as the is exactly what would be needed to compete against that tier of player.

 

This is NOT pvp. Pvp is an e-sport. Pvp does not need to hyper inflate to allow progression like pve. Bioware needs to start thinking outside the box ... for once ... and not further clone failed systems.

 

Pvp needs to be about equality so skill can shine. Competitive games/battles is the only incentive needed behind sports and pvp competition. Rewards do not need to be power gains or minimal at best. People will still pvp! More so than blocking out huge segments of the population as is shaping up now.

 

My suggestions:

 

1. Anyone engaged in pvp automatically is scaled to a standard at level 50 based on their chosen stats through gear. This would be an easy cap and calculated upon engaging with players.

 

2. The benefit to pvp gear and pve gear are optional looks and perhaps the SLIGHTEST edge to scaling for pvp in limited stats. This rewards those so choosing to grind through pvp but minimal impact on a one on one basis. Set benefits would favour pvp style combat where possible.

 

3. Real rewards granted though titles, cosmetics, vendors and unique pve perks like own lounge, diff ships etc etc that are cool but have no real impact to pvp performance.

 

There are TONS of things Bioware can do to ensure pvp is fun, accessible, competitive yet rewarding to the hardcore.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Tamanous

This is NOT pvp. Pvp is an e-sport. Pvp does not need to hyper inflate to allow progression like pve. Bioware needs to start thinking outside the box ... for once ... and not further clone failed systems.

 

Exactly.

 

Wrong, new people to this game are discouraged from doing anything because they can't directly join their friends without first gearig up(according to you).

 

Again, do you require people who play sports to "not gear up" before they can compete?

 

To put it in more relevant terms, does a online FPS require gear ups to play? Some of the best FPS games don't work by progressive gear-ups. Even the ones that do give gear rewards (BF3) don't give drastically better gear but simply different gear. A Starter machine gun kills you just as dead as a high rank machine gun. The differences are so minor as to be cosmetic or personal taste.

 

If I had the ability to gain gear that gave me 10% more damage to my saber throw vs 10% more damage to my smash; granted a little more health or even some special perk ability; that doesn't nearly equate to the expertise system while it still gives me a reason to farm pvp rewards. You can design gear which is interesting and worth getting but doesn't have to bracket out people like PvE gear does.

 

PvP is NOT PvE, it is silly to treat them the same.

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