My vote is probably as follows...

1.Sorc/Sage heals

2.Sorc/sage DPS

3.Tank PT

4. tank jugg

5.AP PT

6.Rage jugg

7.....

8.......

9.........

10..........

I don't think I've seen a single rage Jugg aside from one guy who wanted to try it out.

He immediately went back to being a shank tank.

I don't think I've seen a single rage Jugg aside from one guy who wanted to try it out.

He immediately went back to being a shank tank.

i see more rage juggs than skank juggs

i see more rage juggs than skank juggs

I see more of everything than Rage Jugs.

If they are dps then they are Vengeance not Rage.

They go Immortal with dps gear to have the entire team bash them for 25 minutes without dying.

I see more of everything than Rage Jugs.

If they are dps then they are Vengeance not Rage.

They go Immortal with dps gear to have the entire team bash them for 25 minutes without dying.

Vengeance sucks in most arenas. Good players will not stand and eat ravages, they will kite away from their teammates, in result - low single target dps and low aoe.

For example chasing PT is impossible in vengeance, you will not be able to use anything except shatter, impale, scream. Vs good sorcs vengeance sucks, due to low burst, so you will be kited and your dps outhealed.

Also in rage sorcs will non-stop buff you (pooled hatred works as intended in rage), and you can do idiotically big hits.

The only situation when vengeance is really better - jugg and mara games, where your dots will not be cleansed and people will always stay near you for aoe.

As for top:

DPS:

1. Operative concealment

2. Sorc madness

3. AP PT

4. Assassin dps

5. Jugg dps

6. Mara dps

7. Arsenal merc

8. Sniper dps

9. Other underpowered specs (pyro, leth, IO).

Healers:

1. Sorc

2. Op

3. Merc

Tanks:

1. PT

2. Assassin

3. Jugg (much closer now, but still worst).

Vengeance sucks in most arenas. Good players will not stand and eat ravages, they will kite away from their teammates, in result - low single target dps and low aoe.

For example chasing PT is impossible in vengeance, you will not be able to use anything except shatter, impale, scream. Vs good sorcs vengeance sucks, due to low burst, so you will be kited and your dps outhealed.

Also in rage sorcs will non-stop buff you (pooled hatred works as intended in rage), and you can do idiotically big hits.

The only situation when vengeance is really better - jugg and mara games, where your dots will not be cleansed and people will always stay near you for aoe.

 

As for top:

 

DPS:

1. Operative concealment. LoL what? They hit with wet noodles. /laugh and /giggle when they open up on me. Not a threat at all

2. Sorc madness

3. AP PT

4. Assassin dps

5. Jugg dps

6. Mara dps

7. Arsenal merc

8. Sniper dps

9. Other underpowered specs (pyro, leth, IO).

 

Healers:

1. Sorc

2. Op

3. Merc

 

Tanks:

1. PT

2. Assassin

3. Jugg (much closer now, but still worst).

Sniper is really good in the right hands.

Sniper is really good in the right hands.

Yes, in right hands. But it's much much easier to perform good as almost all other classes.

About operatives, on my server there is a tremendous amount of them, and usually if 2 or more of them in one team - they can win 99% games. They always last ones standing, they have nasty CC, and a delayed burst which is extremely useful vs sorcs. Also they can win 1v2 and even 1v3 in acid against decent players.

And they don't hit like noodles. I have seen many of them doing 3k or more single target dps in healer games. Not even mentioning that it's impossible to win them 1v1 unless you are sorc bubbling or assassin shrouding+PW in acid.

Vengeance sucks in most arenas. Good players will not stand and eat ravages, they will kite away from their teammates, in result - low single target dps and low aoe.

For example chasing PT is impossible in vengeance, you will not be able to use anything except shatter, impale, scream. Vs good sorcs vengeance sucks, due to low burst, so you will be kited and your dps outhealed.

Also in rage sorcs will non-stop buff you (pooled hatred works as intended in rage), and you can do idiotically big hits.

The only situation when vengeance is really better - jugg and mara games, where your dots will not be cleansed and people will always stay near you for aoe.

 

As for top:

 

DPS:

1. Operative concealment

2. Sorc madness

3. AP PT

4. Assassin dps

5. Jugg dps

6. Mara dps

7. Arsenal merc

8. Sniper dps

9. Other underpowered specs (pyro, leth, IO).

 

Healers:

1. Sorc

2. Op

3. Merc

 

Tanks:

1. PT

2. Assassin

3. Jugg (much closer now, but still worst).

I see nowdays only conc ops, sins in both DPS specs, juggernauts vengeance, PT tanks, Sorcs heals and madness. Others are rare.

Sniper is really good in the right hands.

You need to spend a lot of time on sniper. Heard from 1 guy he spend 1 year to learn.

1. Pyrotech PT

2. Lethality Sniper

3. Merc Heals

1. Pyrotech PT

2. Lethality Sniper

3. Merc Heals

DPS:

1. Operative concealment

2. Sorc madness

3. AP PT

4. Assassin dps

5. Jugg dps

6. Mara dps

7. Arsenal merc

8. Sniper dps

9. Other underpowered specs (pyro, leth, IO).

Maybe I'm biased, but I would put Mara higher, Jugg lower, Sniper higher, Concealment lower.

Something like this.

DPS:

1. Sorc madness

2. Assassin dps

3. Mara dps

4. Operative concealment

5. AP PT

6. Sniper dps

7. Jugg dps

8. Anything merc

9. Other underpowered specs

Vengeance sucks in most arenas. Good players will not stand and eat ravages, they will kite away from their teammates, in result - low single target dps and low aoe.

For example chasing PT is impossible in vengeance, you will not be able to use anything except shatter, impale, scream. Vs good sorcs vengeance sucks, due to low burst, so you will be kited and your dps outhealed.

Also in rage sorcs will non-stop buff you (pooled hatred works as intended in rage), and you can do idiotically big hits.

The only situation when vengeance is really better - jugg and mara games, where your dots will not be cleansed and people will always stay near you for aoe.

Vengeance jug here...I find myself doing pretty decently in arenas. If you take the immobility utility for Ravage, this isn't so much a problem, at least not in my experience. The thing with Vengeance jug in arena is that you have to be savvy with your movement. If you're up against ranged classes, you need to try and drag them into the melee action or distract them from hitting your teammates while they tunnel an opponent. Sometimes this means you have to sacrifice yourself for the match; there's been times when I've died, but managed to keep the 'danger class' busy for so long that my teammates have been able to focus kill the rest of the opponents and then it's an easy finish for them. Vengeance jug is really a support role in arena and I do alright at it. Mostly wins in recent times and top damage too.

1. Merc

2. Sniper

3. Oper

4. Sin

5. Mara

Vengeance jug here...I find myself doing pretty decently in arenas. If you take the immobility utility for Ravage, this isn't so much a problem, at least not in my experience. The thing with Vengeance jug in arena is that you have to be savvy with your movement. If you're up against ranged classes, you need to try and drag them into the melee action or distract them from hitting your teammates while they tunnel an opponent. Sometimes this means you have to sacrifice yourself for the match; there's been times when I've died, but managed to keep the 'danger class' busy for so long that my teammates have been able to focus kill the rest of the opponents and then it's an easy finish for them. Vengeance jug is really a support role in arena and I do alright at it. Mostly wins in recent times and top damage too.

That depends on a playstyle. If you are carry, then vengeance suits better. I always was numbers maniac, and I found that I do better in rage, despite my huge vengeance experience.

Also due to insane amount of root breakers and cc I found ravage root fairly useless. Most times people interrupt final tick and your dps becomes mediocre.

1-. IO MERC

2-. ARSENAL MERC

3.- MERC HEALS

remark my words

just based on pure healing numbers, Op is actually better than Sorc on anything more than 2 targets

nope, not anymore (hot nerf in 4.0), i can send you statistics if you like that prove that operative's potential output isn't that much higher while sorcs can get way more healing out in reality.

nope, not anymore (hot nerf in 4.0), i can send you statistics if you like that prove that operative's potential output isn't that much higher while sorcs can get way more healing out in reality.

PvE gear is used in this example in Bant's thread, but PvP is just as even of a starting point.

Healers vs Number of Targets:

 

 

Note: this is all estimation based on a preset rotation / priority list.

 

Ultimate Exarch (224 ilvl) Healers

 

Sorcerer - Corruption || Sage - Seer

6410 Endurance | 5372 Mastery | 2931 Power

1433 Critical (5xE, 7xA, 2xC) | 1351 Alacrity (5xE, 7xA) | 0 Accuracy

1 Target: 8650 HPS

2 Targets: 10880 HPS

3 Targets: 11570 HPS

4 Targets: 12260 HPS

8 Targets: 15010 HPS

 

Mercenary - Bodyguard || Commando - Combat Medic

6593 Endurance | 5372 Mastery | 2931 Power

1579 Critical (5xE, 9xA, 2xC) | 1205 Alacrity (5xE, 5xA) | 0 Accuracy

1 Target: 8310 HPS

2 Targets: 9080 HPS

3 Targets: 9960 HPS

4 Targets: 11020 HPS

8 Targets: 13420 HPS

 

Operative - Medicine || Scoundrel - Sawbones

6410 Endurance | 5372 Mastery | 2931 Power

1506 Critical (5xE, 8xA, 2xC) | 1278 Alacrity (5xE, 6xA) | 0 Accuracy

1 Target: 8310 HPS

2 Targets: 10510 HPS

3 Targets: 13050 HPS

4 Targets: 16470 HPS

8 Targets: 21140 HPS

 

 

That depends on a playstyle. If you are carry, then vengeance suits better. I always was numbers maniac, and I found that I do better in rage, despite my huge vengeance experience.

Also due to insane amount of root breakers and cc I found ravage root fairly useless. Most times people interrupt final tick and your dps becomes mediocre.

Depends. I love getting high damage; I try to consistently finish in the top 3 total damage in any WZ and am generally successful in that regard. Ravage really is crappy ability when it comes down to it...very limited range, you have to be facing your target, you can't move while using it...I use it very sparingly. It's usually something I keep on my bar as a situational. What was your spec when you were going vengeance?

Depends. I love getting high damage; I try to consistently finish in the top 3 total damage in any WZ and am generally successful in that regard. Ravage really is crappy ability when it comes down to it...very limited range, you have to be facing your target, you can't move while using it...I use it very sparingly. It's usually something I keep on my bar as a situational. What was your spec when you were going vengeance?

imho vengeance output wise is only exceeded by balance, occasionally serenity. It's literally the jack of all trades spec. It has obscene dotspread, very good single target as long as you're aggressive enough to harass the target continually (alacrity helps), and is very annoying to shut down.