Since the implementation of the Discipline system in 3.0, Combat/Carnage has undergone some considerable changes. The current iteration is no doubt an oddball when compared to other Knight/Warrior or even fellow Sent/Mara builds. It's fast paced, eclectic, seemingly simplistic, and packs a potent burst. BUT, I argue it has a few issues that I feel could be ironed out in the next expansion. It's wildly different from other specs - and that's perfectly okay. But I'd like to identify some common issues with its current format, and suggest a few changes that could improve quality of life and make it generally more fun to play.

 

- Ability starvation.

 

- The alacrity system is an issue on multiple levels.

 

- Precision/Gore is too tight.

 

- The discipline no longer follows the model the devs intended in 3.x.

 

- The skill ceiling is much higher than the devs envisioned to the community.

 

- It performs well in PvP, but suffers from more counters and drawbacks than others do.

 

 

Some suggestions to revamp the rotation and correct the aforementioned issues:

 

- Convert Zen's alacrity boost into a set-time window (like Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity), and have the 6 stacks just operate as a "countdown timer" of sorts. Better yet, either apply some sort of root/CC immunity during the window, or don't allow the stacks to count down while incapacitated.

 

The goal: Reduce the total penalty for playing with bad ping. Instead of losing uptime benefits from each charge, a player loses a smaller, cumulative benefit. Also alleviates some of the spec's major downtime disadvantages.

 

 

- Extend Precision/Gore's effect again, but limit the number of abilities it affects with "charges" (like Overload/Deadly Saber). Each charge still grants armor pen to each attack, but remains difficult to consume every charge in time. This still allows players to "squish" an extra VT/Dispatch or a T/DST into the start of the window, and factoring in Zen guarantees that every charge is used (regardless of a preemptive saber throw). Nerf ability damage or armor pen values accordingly.

 

- At the end of its duration, convert any unspent charges of Precision/Gore into either Focus/Rage, or a small damage buff. This would reconcile a portion of user error if the player was not able to consume every charge inside the AP window, and reduce the margin of dps loss due to errors.

 

The goal: Extending and softening the burst window while offering much needed forgiveness for ability mismanagement. The skill ceiling will remain traditionally high, but the player loses less dps from a minor flaw.

 

- Either reduce the CD on Ravage/BD, or make it useful during fillers. I find it silly that one of the most powerful abilities has to be delayed in order to maximize dps. Given we just received a DoT that doesn't even benefit from the AP window, that just further calls the ability's role to question in a lopsided rotation.

 

The goal: Make Ravage/BD Great Again

 

- Make saber forms baseline.

Most classes have their combat "stances" as so already, and it frees up space for a new ability. This means one of Vig/Veng's moves would require a re-skin, but that could be addressed in 5.x. It also makes field respec easier.

- Add a cool, new Combat/Carnage-exclusive ability. What if the devs introduced a long DoT with a cooldown that bolstered Ataru strike damage while active? Or perhaps a hard hitting ability (still weaker than the others) that added an additional stack to your next Precision/Gore and increased its duration?

 

The goal: Add some spice to the rotation, and redistribute some of the damage back to fillers. It wouldn't add too much to the rotation, and it would fix the ability spamming a bit. The point of increasing the number of Precision/Gore stacks is to allow more opportunities to hit Ravage/BD and C/D Blast inside an armor pen window without changing much else.

 

 

The primary goal of all this is to redistribute damage and generally make Combat/Carnage more fun to play. Extending Precision/Gore again and introducing a stack system would make the rotation more consistent, and give the player more power beyond a restrictive, 3 second window.

 

With a stack system, players would still be rewarded for mastering the spec's intricacies and high skill ceiling, while mitigating some of the dps loss from playing below base difficulty. With this in mind, of course nerfs are necessary. But given the current meta and remembering the original 3.0 discipline model, I feel this could greatly improve QOL at the expense of a little dps.

 

Not only that, but this spec desperately needs variety. Freeing up Ataru form from the discipline tree would give us a new move to fulfill just that, while also giving opportunity to trade damage from the AP window to fillers and meet the original damage profile described.

 

I feel implementing at least a few of these changes in the next expansion would provide a decent makeover to an otherwise tumultuous and staggered rotation, while preserving the core elements that set Combat/Carnage apart form all others. What does the community think? Any flames/insights/suggestions to help this catch (or lose) the devs' attention?

 

PS - Devs, plz buff Conc/Fury

Edited June 8, 2016 by Trogusaurus

Unfortunately you seem too only consider pvp more than pve matters, as of right now combat is in a very good place pve wise with a sustainable rotation and good damge, and a middle of the pack rating in pvp. Having a higher burst than concentration is not necessarily bad since is more easily countered in pvp than concentration. BTW I do happen to like that charges system of Zen.

 

I've been saying it for quite some time now, Combat is fine and needs no changes.

Ability Starvation:

I understand this point and this has been something that has been a persistent point in the Sentinel/Marauder community for some time now. However, I feel you kind of shoot yourself in the foot with this in that you said the skill ceiling is much higher than the devs envisioned. Adding more abilities increases spec difficulty unless those abilities serve no purpose within the main rotation in which case that would defeat the purpose of your point as far as Ability Starvation is concerned.

 

The alacrity system is an issue on multiple levels:

Completely agree with you in reference to Alacrities relationship and impact on players with less than favorable internet connections/latency. However, if something is getting off track for you during live raid there are several ways to realign these timers to get them back on track. So if you respond to a fight mechanic and unalign your Opportune Attack/Slaughter or Hand of Justice/Execute procs it’s on that player to get it back on track. This was something that skilled Combat/Carnage players during 2.0 were able to do and if you wanted to top the charts you had to do since you not only had your rotation to manage but also a separate 20 sec timer you needed to track for optimized use of procs. I can tie that back to your saying the current skill ceiling is too high. I feel it’s much easier to get these guaranteed procs on set intervals that can be relied on than the prior RNG based procs that you had to hope happened while having the rotational skill and awareness to know what to do with them to optimize DPS output.

 

Precision/Gore is too tight:

Completely agree with you here. I miss our old Precision/Gore duration. But that’s only assuming damage profiles would remain what they are now which they most certainly would not. If the window was extended they would have to nerf a good bit of the spec’s damage capability to keep it in check otherwise (as you stated) over 50% of our hardest damage capability would be buffed an addition 1.5 seconds (if they went back to the old window) per Precision/Gore.

 

The discipline no longer follows the model the devs intended in 3.x:

I think the way you (and most of the community) define “burst” is not the same way the dev’s do. Concentration/Fury does have higher burst than Combat/Carnage if you look at it on a cyclic rate not damage numbers. Concentration/Fury is able to return to periods of high burst faster than Combat/Carnage. While our “Burst” as we define it is higher during Precision/Gore when Precision/Gore is on cooldown we’re effectively struggling to maintain until that next window. Concentration/Fury (if played properly) does not operate in that manner.

 

The skill ceiling is much higher than the devs envisioned to the community.

I feel this is absolutely a subjective point. If I had to give a definitive answer on the subject I would lean towards saying it does not have a high skill ceiling. The idea and theory behind the spec is really straight forward. The “clipping” as I call it and you referenced it does not become such a detrimental mechanic to operating the spec that if you do not do this you’ll be hundreds of DPS lower than the other player that is doing it. Clipping is simply a way to optimize DPS output in conjunction with the Precision/Gore window by squeezing as much out of it as possible. Furthermore, (as far as I know) my guides for Combat/Carnage are the only guides that have an infinite rotation. This means players learn the rotation, apply a few simple rules, and can run the rotation indefinitely. That is far easier than someone telling you a proposed rotation and then after you’ve completed it you’re on your own. Yes the rotation can be and will be broken in live raid, you will not run my rotation or any rotation indefinitely in raid due to mechanics. However, the fact that players (assuming they follow my guide) can run my designed rotation infinitely I feel makes it a much easier spec to grab a hold of. The rate at which the spec must be played is a different story with Combat/Carnage. To date I’ve trained over 1500 Sentinels/Marauders and APM and latency is where players struggle the most here. This spec has always been the fastest played spec in the game and a lot of that is tied to Ataru form itself lore wise in my opinion. I won’t go into that here but the developers have definitely stated and proven that lore is a point taken into consideration with classes/specs in SWTOR. Anyhow, players getting their abilities off faster is the issue with this spec. An issue a lot of other specs do not require of the player. Additionally, players brand new to MMO’s and this type of game play are going to struggle inherently. Overall though I think that is where the difficulties lie not in the overall design of the spec’s rotation or abilities. With that I do believe it is a difficult spec to master but the same statement can be made for all specs in the game.

 

It performs well in PvP, but suffers from more counters and drawbacks than others do:

Almost everything here on PvP I agree with mate. Mobility and kiting are less of issue for my own personal gameplay (minus Sage/Sorcs). I generally feel mobile enough between Transcendence/Predation, Force Leap/Force Charge, Blade Blitz/Mad Dash, and Force Camouflage

 

Convert Zen's alacrity boost into a set-time window:

One of the things I like about the charge system that would break a set time based system is response to mechanics. During operations if you have to respond to another mechanic either by way of interaction or physically being unable to be within striking distance of the target and you’ve got Zen/Berserk active atleast you don’t lose it with a Charge system. It stands to reason that if the system was changed to a set time it would not be for the same duration it is currently, it would probably be much quicker. So if you use Zen/Berserk and must respond to a mechanic that keeps you off your target you’ve lost that window of opportunity and your DPS will plummet. This happens a good bit in HM operations and definitely in NiM level content. Times where if it was not on a charge system I would have been greatly hindered in my ability to jump right back in and do what we Combat/Carnage specs do best. For that reason alone I feel the charge systems grants greater capabilities. A thought however may be to restrict what uses charges. Similar in nature to how Precision/Gore does not utilize a charge making some other smart choices of which abilities will and will not use a charge would make the current system feel better than it does for those players who dislike it.

 

Extend Precision/Gore's effect again, but limit the number of abilities it affects with "charges" (like Overload/Deadly Saber):

I could go either way on this suggestion honestly. It still would not change the priority of abilities or rotational aspect centered around Precision/Gore but would give players more time to react to it. However, the idea behind the spec is speed and “Precision” lol yes I just did that So slowing down the most powerful part of the spec goes against that intent by the Dev’s in my opinion.

 

Make saber forms baseline/Add a cool, new Combat/Carnage-exclusive ability:

I may not be fully understanding what you mean here. If you mean your stance is passive and auto turned on when you respect (this is how I’m interpreting this) then other classes/specs do not have this baseline. Shadows/Assassins, Guardians/Juggernauts, Vanguards/Powertechs, Commandos/Mercenaries all have to activate their Stance/Cell for their specific spec. On the note of adding a new ability (specifically a DoT) this is what we use to have in the way of Cauterize/Rupture back in 2.0 and prior. To play optimally back then you would frontload that ability prior to entering Precision/Gore to get buffed DoT ticks inside the window. That was taken out as I’m sure you know with 3.0 to keep Watchman/Annihilation the DoT based spec and keep us purely burst. So I doubt you would see that implemented but they did add a burn/bleed to our Blade Dance/Ravage recently so who knows. I personally would love a burn/bleed that was it’s own ability and made up more than 2% of overall damage output!

 

P.S.

Totally agree!!!

Edited June 8, 2016 by Bahadori

More than anything, they need to give it additional stun / movement breakers / immunity. Especially for pvp. The Unremitting utility from the Guardian tree would improve this class so much in this respect. Edited June 9, 2016 by UveBeenShanged

Ability Starvation:

Uhh abllity starvation? What exactly do you feel it lacks ability wise?

I think the idea of Ability starvation stems from the fact there are more situational abilities than high impact ones.

Thus why you think Combat needs a new ability and Ataru form be baseline similar to Juyo and Shi-Cho

 

The alacrity system is an issue on multiple levels:

Probably because Alacrity's design was brought into the game late, and at the point where it's design was already exposed as stagnant.

In most MMOs attack speed is valued higher than crit simply because it's a damage form vs rng.

This game DOES NOT consider functional attack speed in its design! That is the problem

Attack speed is unstable, and with no auto attack functionality it will always appear to look like a joke. Regardless.

Complaining about alacrity system is a waste of time, as it's primary function was not to benefit melees and lower global cooldown rates, but to lower channeling and cooldowns instead. Which is a bad joke.

Just ask yourself why Operative energy design is so fked up now

 

Precision/Gore is too tight:

I want to agree with you, but I also want to disagree with you.

I think Precision/Gore window is fine at 3 seconds. But I also feel like losing something by getting nothing in return is just plain lame

 

The discipline no longer follows the model the devs intended in 3.x:

Depends really, I think the discipline and Sentinel design completely contradicts the ideology of the class name WARRIOR/KNIGHT

But hey, beggars and all that...

 

The skill ceiling is much higher than the devs envisioned to the community.

I disagree. Or maybe due to poor choice of words.

I would say the skill pool is too saturated... which naturally creates a demand for change, so people can re-learn new values and have something to spend their time doing one of the best things MMOs offer... learning the class

 

It performs well in PvP, but suffers from more counters and drawbacks than others do:

That falls down to individual players, skill and inadequacies as a whole.

No player is the same, no player feels the same. I don't think it suffers more, because the core way to counter a Sentinel is a strategy that innately excels against any class, provided your dps and timing, as well as co-ordination are adequate

 

Convert Zen's alacrity boost into a set-time window:

The fact that you complain about Precision's window and then demand Zen alacrity has a time based window is odd... not that im judging you or anything, i just find it weird anybody would suggest it that way

Personally i'd prefer if they were just consistent, If Zen has charges, then Precision should have charges as well.

just like overload and zen

 

Extend Precision/Gore's effect again, but limit the number of abilities it affects with "charges" (like Overload/Deadly Saber):

Mentioned before

 

Make saber forms baseline/Add a cool, new Combat/Carnage-exclusive ability:

I'm guessing you mean Ataru Form become a Sentinel Ability rather than a speculative ability

I like the idea. But the ability that would replace would probably be a situational one.

 

Saying Combat needs another burst ability or something will put you back to square one, saying precision windows are retarded due to 4 core abilities with burst with precision opportunities

Personally they should give combat a weapon disarm mechanic or ability that works similar to Concealment root, where it can easily be manipulated the same way a stun does but is not directly a stun.

The only thing I can think of in this case, is an ability that directly allows the Sentinel to get free dps on their opponent via an ability that hinders their ability to fight back for a small time.

This would create an inadvertent style where you can create unique windows for yourself without using Precision as a crutch, and can be used as breathing room to build Centering stacks due to free dps time or can be used to create another form a reliability during precision windows to take the most advantage out of it.

An ability that is flexible in that motion, and allows PVP'ers the freedom to not deftly rely on Just Pursuit and it's crap 2 utility for decent root crap that bioware seems to love feeding to us.