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Lethality Op PVP vid 2


Ravashakk

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Really enjoyed :D glad to see more than 1 lethality op LOL

 

It is really nice taking an extended break from healing. I don't like the concealment playstyle, so when I wanted to dps I chose this one. Part of it was the challenge that the consensus was it was one of the worst class specs in the game. Now I'm not here to argue its place in competitive PVP, but I like hearing ppl talk out their *** when they say the spec is nothing but fluff dmg.

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It is really nice taking an extended break from healing. I don't like the concealment playstyle, so when I wanted to dps I chose this one. Part of it was the challenge that the consensus was it was one of the worst class specs in the game. Now I'm not here to argue its place in competitive PVP, but I like hearing ppl talk out their *** when they say the spec is nothing but fluff dmg.

 

It's definitely not fluff damage, and it's a very powerful spec, but it's a much harder spec to play effectively. Your major burst is going to happen around 5-6 GCD's in, if the dots haven't been cleansed already. Survivability is fairly low and lethality is out in the open most of the time with 2 fairly weak defense cd's. The lack of mobility.

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It's definitely not fluff damage, and it's a very powerful spec, but it's a much harder spec to play effectively. Your major burst is going to happen around 5-6 GCD's in, if the dots haven't been cleansed already. Survivability is fairly low and lethality is out in the open most of the time with 2 fairly weak defense cd's. The lack of mobility.

 

until you start chaining culls with 2 dots on target, it's fluff damage.

 

if you can't get more than 1 dot on your target., cull is like shiv, but more expensive.

 

if your target dies right after you acid grenade them or otherwise goes out of range(or cleanses). you're **** until acid cd is back.

 

in a perfect scenario though the damage is pretty good, which is most 1v1's.

 

it's a real shame your flashbang doesn't cleanse your own dots.

Edited by cultivatedmass
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Great highlight video Nebukanezer! I really enjoyed your use of AoE damage and cover (Explosive Probe is so very neglected for the Lethality Ops I find) in addition to those nasty Culls of yours. Especially liked your first video where you fight the Focus Sentinel (

) and DoT up the whole team at center point in CW (
) Great stuff!

 

Also how about that Carbine Blast, Frag Grenade and Orbital Strike all on top of a ticking Corrosive Grenade? Does some devastating area damage amirite? I don’t use Carbine Blast as often as I should in those situations so thanks for showing me how it’s done. Now you got me all jazzed to play my Dirty Fighter tonight! *POW* :jawa_biggrin:

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Great highlight video Nebukanezer! I really enjoyed your use of AoE damage and cover (Explosive Probe is so very neglected for the Lethality Ops I find) in addition to those nasty Culls of yours. Especially liked your first video where you fight the Focus Sentinel (
) and DoT up the whole team at center point in CW (
) Great stuff!

 

Also how about that Carbine Blast, Frag Grenade and Orbital Strike all on top of a ticking Corrosive Grenade? Does some devastating area damage amirite? I don’t use Carbine Blast as often as I should in those situations so thanks for showing me how it’s done. Now you got me all jazzed to play my Dirty Fighter tonight! *POW* :jawa_biggrin:

 

This is incredible...not one but TWO posts in one day on the PvP forums.

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Great highlight video Nebukanezer! I really enjoyed your use of AoE damage and cover (Explosive Probe is so very neglected for the Lethality Ops I find) in addition to those nasty Culls of yours. Especially liked your first video where you fight the Focus Sentinel (
) and DoT up the whole team at center point in CW (
) Great stuff!

 

Also how about that Carbine Blast, Frag Grenade and Orbital Strike all on top of a ticking Corrosive Grenade? Does some devastating area damage amirite? I don’t use Carbine Blast as often as I should in those situations so thanks for showing me how it’s done. Now you got me all jazzed to play my Dirty Fighter tonight! *POW* :jawa_biggrin:

 

It's as you stated, the player can make the class good. This is why I think classes are pretty balanced (I play a commando heals). I think classes can use a little twinking, of course, but they are balanced pretty good right now.

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Dont see to many with that spec, fun to watch.Should try it on my scoundrel.

The spec is still pretty god awful, despite what the video and the wild-dev-appearing may think.

 

Lethality Operatives are just confused about what they should be doing. Is it a ranged DOT spec that eats away as you kite? Maybe...but some of the most important Lethality abilities need to be used within 10 meters, and you can't kite a Pyrotech at 10 meters.

 

Is it a burst spec that does a lot of damage? Maybe...but for any serious damage to happen you need all your DOTs ticking and you need to give them time to work.

 

Is it a hybrid spec that improves some of the worst Operative matchups? Maybe...it makes the Pyrotech matchup easier because you can kite and let DOTs work (and even that is really hard), but it makes the Sin matchup even worse.

 

Is it a DOT spec like Madness? Maybe...it has strong DOTs and improved energy management, but no self-healing and long-range kiting.

 

The Lethality Operative spec is fun, don't get me wrong. But at this stage, it is trying to do too many things and doing all of them poorly.

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Lethality Operatives are just confused about what they should be doing. Is it a ranged DOT spec that eats away as you kite? Maybe...but some of the most important Lethality abilities need to be used within 10 meters, and you can't kite a Pyrotech at 10 meters.

 

Not to mention Tactical Advantage pretty much just comes from shiv, which is 4m. Are people taking the talent to get TA from Kolto Injection or something?

 

for any serious damage to happen you need all your DOTs ticking

 

There are just two, right? Corrosive Dart and Corrosive grenade?

Edited by LarryRow
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It's definitely not fluff damage, and it's a very powerful spec, but it's a much harder spec to play effectively. Your major burst is going to happen around 5-6 GCD's in, if the dots haven't been cleansed already. Survivability is fairly low and lethality is out in the open most of the time with 2 fairly weak defense cd's. The lack of mobility.

 

The spec does decent in 1v1s, but I feel it shines in group play (contrary to the concealment operative). In a 1v1, the chances of your dots getting cleansed are high, but in group play with dots everywhere they will generally stick. If you take the lingering toxins talent, it makes sure they stay on long enough to get some culls in.

 

I do agree there is a ramp up time to get to the bigger burst and that the defensive cooldowns are kind of meh when compared to a marauder. Part of my enjoyment is working around the things I can't change.

 

until you start chaining culls with 2 dots on target, it's fluff damage.

 

if you can't get more than 1 dot on your target., cull is like shiv, but more expensive.

 

if your target dies right after you acid grenade them or otherwise goes out of range(or cleanses). you're **** until acid cd is back.

 

in a perfect scenario though the damage is pretty good, which is most 1v1's.

 

it's a real shame your flashbang doesn't cleanse your own dots.

 

I guess we have different definitions on fluff dmg. If you look in my video, PLENTY of times my dots are killing ppl despite the presense of decent healers on the other team. Everyone likes to theorycraft on paper that dots can be healed through and cleansed, but they don't account for al ot of variables that come into play in an actual war zone. If fluff dmg is large dmg amounts that get healed through, then I submit smash for fluff dmg recognition.

 

A non crit cull on a target above 30% health without weakening blast debuff and only 1 dot will still do more dmg than a non crit shiv by 300-500 (off the top of my head).

 

As for the "you're screwed if you can't get 2 dots on someone" mentality, you have to play to the class' strengths instead of just waiting on a cooldown for acid grenade. Our other abilities hit hard enough that you can kill ppl without dotting/culling them at all. It isn't nearly as efficient, but can get the job done.

 

Yes, I would love if flash bang ignored dot dmg or my dot dmg or just cleansed the target of dots.

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Great highlight video Nebukanezer! I really enjoyed your use of AoE damage and cover (Explosive Probe is so very neglected for the Lethality Ops I find) in addition to those nasty Culls of yours. Especially liked your first video where you fight the Focus Sentinel (
) and DoT up the whole team at center point in CW (
) Great stuff!

 

Also how about that Carbine Blast, Frag Grenade and Orbital Strike all on top of a ticking Corrosive Grenade? Does some devastating area damage amirite? I don’t use Carbine Blast as often as I should in those situations so thanks for showing me how it’s done. Now you got me all jazzed to play my Dirty Fighter tonight! *POW* :jawa_biggrin:

 

I honestly didn't know devs watched PVP videos, so thank you for your time.

 

I know a lot of ppl are going to post about how you are trying to make it seem like the spec is balanced and not in need of help, which I do not think that was your intention. I think what you took from it, is what I wanted others to take from it....another point of view that maybe they're doing something wrong if they ever tried the spec. Abilities get neglected and the player underperforms...thus thinking the spec is gimped more than it is. It needs a little help here and there for smoothness of playing, but the dmg portion of it is fine IMO.

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The spec does decent in 1v1s, but I feel it shines in group play (contrary to the concealment operative). In a 1v1, the chances of your dots getting cleansed are high, but in group play with dots everywhere they will generally stick. If you take the lingering toxins talent, it makes sure they stay on long enough to get some culls in.

 

I do agree there is a ramp up time to get to the bigger burst and that the defensive cooldowns are kind of meh when compared to a marauder. Part of my enjoyment is working around the things I can't change.

 

 

 

I guess we have different definitions on fluff dmg. If you look in my video, PLENTY of times my dots are killing ppl despite the presense of decent healers on the other team. Everyone likes to theorycraft on paper that dots can be healed through and cleansed, but they don't account for al ot of variables that come into play in an actual war zone. If fluff dmg is large dmg amounts that get healed through, then I submit smash for fluff dmg recognition.

 

A non crit cull on a target above 30% health without weakening blast debuff and only 1 dot will still do more dmg than a non crit shiv by 300-500 (off the top of my head).

 

As for the "you're screwed if you can't get 2 dots on someone" mentality, you have to play to the class' strengths instead of just waiting on a cooldown for acid grenade. Our other abilities hit hard enough that you can kill ppl without dotting/culling them at all. It isn't nearly as efficient, but can get the job done.

 

Yes, I would love if flash bang ignored dot dmg or my dot dmg or just cleansed the target of dots.

 

Pretty much all of this can be applied to madness for assassins. Just like lethality for ops, very few people play the spec.

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The spec does decent in 1v1s, but I feel it shines in group play (contrary to the concealment operative). In a 1v1, the chances of your dots getting cleansed are high, but in group play with dots everywhere they will generally stick. If you take the lingering toxins talent, it makes sure they stay on long enough to get some culls in.

 

I do agree there is a ramp up time to get to the bigger burst and that the defensive cooldowns are kind of meh when compared to a marauder. Part of my enjoyment is working around the things I can't change.

 

 

 

I guess we have different definitions on fluff dmg. If you look in my video, PLENTY of times my dots are killing ppl despite the presense of decent healers on the other team. Everyone likes to theorycraft on paper that dots can be healed through and cleansed, but they don't account for al ot of variables that come into play in an actual war zone. If fluff dmg is large dmg amounts that get healed through, then I submit smash for fluff dmg recognition.

 

A non crit cull on a target above 30% health without weakening blast debuff and only 1 dot will still do more dmg than a non crit shiv by 300-500 (off the top of my head).

 

As for the "you're screwed if you can't get 2 dots on someone" mentality, you have to play to the class' strengths instead of just waiting on a cooldown for acid grenade. Our other abilities hit hard enough that you can kill ppl without dotting/culling them at all. It isn't nearly as efficient, but can get the job done.

 

Yes, I would love if flash bang ignored dot dmg or my dot dmg or just cleansed the target of dots.

 

it's a frag video.

 

do you know how overpowered concealment ops look in a frag video?

 

when you pick and choose clips everything looks really good.

 

i play both dps ops and there are too many times where i can't get both dots off on a target just as there are too many times where i can't use my opener as concealment.

 

 

also, aoe dot spam is not good for team oriented play. they break too much cc.

Edited by cultivatedmass
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The spec is still pretty god awful, despite what the video and the wild-dev-appearing may think.

 

I think God awful is a bit harsh. If you were to make a list of major problems with the spec, it would look like this:

 

1. DoTs breaking CC makes it less viable in competitive PVP (ranked)

2. Ramp up time for burst

3. TA generation is weak

4. Defensive cooldowns

 

Most everything else I hear is minor.

 

#1, when you form a ranked team, making your composition matters. If you choose to make a CC heavy team (mezzes not stuns), then having a dotter on the team is counterproductive. That isn't the fault of the spec, but the person picking the team. That doesn't mean I think there shouldn't be changes to help in this department, but I can deal with it.

#2, it is a tradeoff. You get higher burst, but it takes a bit to setup. If that kind of dmg was spammable while being front loaded, it would be OP. I don't need to see this change, because to me it is apart of the spec.

#3, is one of hte bigger issues with the spec. I've always thought a similar talent to the healing tree should be implemented that gave your dots a chance to proc TA. Maybe said talent would also increase TA duration since our ramp up time requires it stay on longer sometimes.

#4, although it doesn't bother me too much I do feel we have some of the weakest def cooldowns in the game (operatives in general) If we were going to receive any kind of buff in that department, it would have to neglect the healing tree. The last thing they need is more survivability.

 

Lethality Operatives are just confused about what they should be doing. Is it a ranged DOT spec that eats away as you kite? Maybe...but some of the most important Lethality abilities need to be used within 10 meters, and you can't kite a Pyrotech at 10 meters.

 

You see that as a weakness, I call it flexibility. Yes, we do have to be in close to get our burst off, but we can get a lot of our dmg going from ranged before we jump in the mix. Powertechs are similar in the sense they can do a good portion of dmg from ranged, but to really do their burst they have to be up close.

 

Is it a burst spec that does a lot of damage? Maybe...but for any serious damage to happen you need all your DOTs ticking and you need to give them time to work.

 

The spec relies on RNG a lot. That is part of the charm I think, kind of like 2h enhancement shaman back in vanilla wow. Doing small dmg......then...BAM *lights out*. Cull can go from high 2ks if everything non crits without debuffs, to hitting for 7.5k with a triple crit on debuffed targets.

 

Is it a DOT spec like Madness? Maybe...it has strong DOTs and improved energy management, but no self-healing and long-range kiting.

 

The Lethality Operative spec is fun, don't get me wrong. But at this stage, it is trying to do too many things and doing all of them poorly.

 

I think you mean no instant self healing (which I would love). I am jealous that dps sages can put up bubbles and instant heal on a fairly short cooldown.

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Your post here has just ensured your fate that lethality operative will never get a buff.

 

Also I agree that it is a terrible spec that is absolutely inferior to its' Sniper counterpart.

 

I mean especially with the low TTK in ranked, what would the point be for a lethality operative? The whole class has the problem where only the healing procs get you anything (a surgical probe). Collateral Damage procs give you a free TA.... but the lacerate is just a fluff ability to use while waiting for BS, EP or SHIV to come off cooldown.

 

Lethality is worse because it has no procs. Plus you still can't even tell which DoTs are yours, can you?

Edited by RyanReagan
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I will have to try again and follow the videos, but my main issue with it when I tried was the UH buildup. I always felt that the DOTs should have a chance to grant UH the way sawbones HOTs do as a start. defensive cooldowns would help, or even an ability to in combat stealth a little more often to be kind of a glass cannon stil, but have a bit more escapability.
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i find i do better with the 30% TA proc on hot lethality build. 18/0/23.

 

a little bit less damage per shot, but i can chain culls more frequently while being more surviable.

 

when all cd's are down i can quickly heal myself for another ta proc into cull.

Edited by cultivatedmass
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it's a frag video.

 

I disagree. Yeah there are some short clips of me bursting someone, but that isn't the whole video. I'm guessing you didn't watch my first video. It showed a lot of extended gameplay clips.

 

ido you know how overpowered concealment ops look in a frag video?

 

Do you know the ratio of conceal videos to lethality videos? It is called a breath of fresh air. If you find it entertaining that a stealther goes up to someone 1v1s them clip after clip, then by all means.

 

iwhen you pick and choose clips everything looks really good.

 

I'm sorry I cut out the boring, but don't think for a second I don't replicate what you see on a constant basis.

 

i play both dps ops and there are too many times where i can't get both dots off on a target just as there are too many times where i can't use my opener as concealment.

 

Sounds like you need better teammates if you are dying in 2 gcds.

 

also, aoe dot spam is not good for team oriented play. they break too much cc.

 

If your team relies on breakable CCs, then yes I agree with you. I never claimed this spec was super ranked friendly lol.

 

At the end of the day, no one is forcing you to play the spec. I play the spec because I enjoy it. I suggest you do the same.

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I disagree. Yeah there are some short clips of me bursting someone, but that isn't the whole video. I'm guessing you didn't watch my first video. It showed a lot of extended gameplay clips.

 

and i bet you only chose extend clips of everything going right. like every class video in the history of man...

 

Sounds like you need better teammates if you are dying in 2 gcds.

 

ummmm. it has nothing to do with dying. it's waiting for acid cd and being stuck in combat unable to reopen.

 

i feel operative has very strong defensive cd's. i don't know why people bash on them. i die the least with my dps op.

 

low cd 4 second stun. aoe blind, evasion which does a number on snipers/assassins/master strike etc, stealth, damage shield.

Edited by cultivatedmass
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