I know they have data on everything that happens in this game. But data cannot account for INTENTION. And since leaving a WZ is NOT a bug, BW doesn't care that people are leaving WZs to avoid xp. I say they don't care, because this has been going on since the game came out, and there has not been ANY mention of this being an exploit by BW, nor has anyone ever been banned for doing it.

I agree that there is no definitive proof that BW considers this an exploit, just as you have no proof to say that they do not. As has come up many times in this thread, BW will not comment on it one way or the other until they have a resolution in place (in fact, if they felt it was fine to do, they probably would have said so by now).

Can we at least agree that there is only one reason to do this: players get an advantage by having the best gear at level 49. They don't have to continually level back up or make new gear or buy new gear, they simply stay at the pinnacle of their class in a bracket based on leveling. If it wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't do it and this thread would never have happened.

I, personally have only suspected this being done 1 or 2 times in all of the lowbie warzones I have played. I think that BW is just using their resources elsewhere on more important issues atm, which is fine by me.

Doom I almost always agree with you, but can't on this one.

While I don't do it in this game I have in others. A Exploit is something done by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

 

First off They had to know it would be a issue for some people not liking this and would have been very easy to not allow it, their top people have been in the industry 10-15 years and likely left it in to see how it would go and to maybe tweak or out right negate it if enough of the paying player complained. The reason in my opinion is that this a time sink for a niche market of players, maybe it's a huge amount I have no clue. But until l they denounce it, how can you call it a exploit?

=P I respect your right to disagree with me.

Hopefully I can clarify: I do not believe twinking is an exploit. In fact, it is something I've considered doing before because it is a legitmate advantage someone can use, and I respect that. I've never done it simply because I've decided I'd rather use the time building 50 gear for that alt, then just taking 4-5 hours and hitting 50 (from 49).

My argument comes in where they use a feature to stay twinked indefinitely. As you say, the dev's have been in the industry 10-15 years. If they had intended players to use a feature like this, would they not have added a "rewards off" toggle? Most argue the leave warzone features was intended to be used for any purpose, and I've argued that it is illogical to think so when this 1 use of the feature goes against the games natural progression. Doesn't every other feature pre 50 work towards leveling? (Exploration, Killing Mobs, New Codex entries. Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't even digging a resource node grant exp? The only thing I can think of is companion crafting misisons/crafting.)

I've also shown where Bioware says it doesn't confirm exploits til they are fixed, so we're on our own to determine whether we should or shouldn't do something. (Which is likely why few people are banned fro exploiting in game features/bugs. Notice no one was banned for the Kaon Under Siege Terrian exploit in the turret encounter, it was simply fixed one day.)

=P I respect your right to disagree with me.

 

Hopefully I can clarify: I do not believe twinking is an exploit. In fact, it is something I've considered doing before because it is a legitmate advantage someone can use, and I respect that. I've never done it simply because I've decided I'd rather use the time building 50 gear for that alt, then just taking 4-5 hours and hitting 50 (from 49).

 

My argument comes in where they use a feature to stay twinked indefinitely. As you say, the dev's have been in the industry 10-15 years. If they had intended players to use a feature like this, would they not have added a "rewards off" toggle? Most argue the leave warzone features was intended to be used for any purpose, and I've argued that it is illogical to think so when this 1 use of the feature goes against the games natural progression. Doesn't every other feature pre 50 work towards leveling? (Exploration, Killing Mobs, New Codex entries. Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't even digging a resource node grant exp? The only thing I can think of is companion crafting misisons/crafting.)

 

I've also shown where Bioware says it doesn't confirm exploits til they are fixed, so we're on our own to determine whether we should or shouldn't do something. (Which is likely why few people are banned fro exploiting in game features/bugs. Notice no one was banned for the Kaon Under Siege Terrian exploit in the turret encounter, it was simply fixed one day.)

I guess it's just a egg or chicken come first type argument until BW says/does something. But I could also try to argue the print screen exploit was not a exploit to, but since I find it cheap and abusing a function to play in a way I would say is not intended I would not defend it.

I guess it's just a egg or chicken come first type argument until BW says/does something. But I could also try to argue the print screen exploit was not a exploit to, but since I find it cheap and abusing a function to play in a way I would say is not intended I would not defend it.

=P true... no one will be 100% correct until Bioware comes out to make a ruling, which they won't.

A bit off topic, but what was the print screen exploit? I am unaware of that one.

Because on The Progenitor I'm seeing some of these idiots

Is "Mongo" still doing it? He has been on level 49 basically the whole summer while I leveled one alt of mine. Took me a while to realise why he is not leveling up to 50. And even with all the explanations here in this thread, I still don't get the point of it. If you leave a warzone early, you never win. Never ever. Maybe I focus too much on winning, but leaving early is like coitus interruptus to me.

=P true... no one will be 100% correct until Bioware comes out to make a ruling, which they won't.

 

A bit off topic, but what was the print screen exploit? I am unaware of that one.

Hitting print screen made you untargetable for a short duration. Perfect for capping nodes. Ridiculously cheap to use and totally game breaking.

Is "Mongo" still doing it? He has been on level 49 basically the whole summer while I leveled one alt of mine. Took me a while to realise why he is not leveling up to 50. And even with all the explanations here in this thread, I still don't get the point of it. If you leave a warzone early, you never win. Never ever. Maybe I focus too much on winning, but leaving early is like coitus interruptus to me.

I think this sums it up. Not like you have to twink to roll a lot of the sub-50 bracket. To just roll them and never get the win, perpetually stuck in sub-50 to me would be hell.

=P true... no one will be 100% correct until Bioware comes out to make a ruling, which they won't.

 

A bit off topic, but what was the print screen exploit? I am unaware of that one.

People will bind a key that spams print screen or any other menu that causes a slight delay in game in order to take objectives or right as they getting close to a edge so it looks like they jump down we they actually don't or get thru fire/poison. When people seem to teleport and so on. Seen it used a lot in warhammer to get in castles by getting up hills you normally could not.

I agree that there is no definitive proof that BW considers this an exploit, just as you have no proof to say that they do not. As has come up many times in this thread, BW will not comment on it one way or the other until they have a resolution in place (in fact, if they felt it was fine to do, they probably would have said so by now).

The "burden of proof" is on you, not me because the status quo so far is that BW does not consider this an exploit.

Bioware DOES comment on exploits BEFORE they have a resolution in place. For example, look at their "known issues" list. There's a TON of crap there that they have NO resolutions for yet, but have acknowledged.

Can we at least agree that there is only one reason to do this: players get an advantage by having the best gear at level 49. They don't have to continually level back up or make new gear or buy new gear, they simply stay at the pinnacle of their class in a bracket based on leveling. If it wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't do it and this thread would never have happened.

 

I, personally have only suspected this being done 1 or 2 times in all of the lowbie warzones I have played. I think that BW is just using their resources elsewhere on more important issues atm, which is fine by me.

Except that there are people who want to stay sub-50 because they may have friends--who joined during F2P--and want to pvp with them. I have two friends who just joined this game, and I pvp with them on my 49 twink. I may not have created my 49 twink originally because of them, but now that they've decided to sub and play more serious, I'm going to keep my 49 at 49 indefinitely until they hit 50.

Except that there are people who want to stay sub-50 because they may have friends--who joined during F2P--and want to pvp with them. I have two friends who just joined this game, and I pvp with them on my 49 twink. I may not have created my 49 twink originally because of them, but now that they've decided to sub and play more serious, I'm going to keep my 49 at 49 indefinitely until they hit 50.

or you could, ya know, level a new toon?

also, the fact that you have a 49 twink makes any argument you have irrelevant. you have a massive bias

You seem to have missed the part where I challenged the definition you drew from that article. That article is specifically about bugs and exploits that come from bugs. It doesn't exclusively say all exploits are bugs. It is too narrow an article to draw "Bioware's" definition of an exploit from.

You may feel it's too narrow, but what you "feel" doesn't matter. Seeing as that is the ONLY article from BW on exploits, well that's what we're gonna have to go on. If you've got something from BW saying otherwise, please show me.

Secondly, whether or not the ToS comes from EA or BW is irrelevant. If Bioware or EA is looking for a way to justify banning/punishing someone, they will draw upon the ToS and not an article from way back in 1.2.

It is not irrelevant. EA has nothing to do with banning people inside SWTOR. They are just a publisher that wants zee monies. Like I said, that ToS is a generic thing EA has for all their games/services. That's why there's random crap like "no uploading images in chat rooms" in the ToS. We can't even do that in SWTOR.

It's up to Bioware to enforce what they want, and it's BW who we all should be scared of receiving a ban hammer from.

I believe I've done a fair portion of my "burden of proof."

 

First I showed that Bioware will not acknowledge something as an exploit openly until it is fixed, thus dissproving that we need a Bioware stamp of Exploiting to determine an exploit.

Nope. They do acknowledge exploits w/o having a resolution in place. For example, there was a bug that allowed people on PvE servers to flag enemies by standing in their companions AoE. People were exploiting this bug to flag people and kill them. BW acknowledged that exploit way before it ever got fixed. They also acknowledged the "getting more than 8 people" in a WZ exploit way before it got fixed too.

Second I proved Bioware doesn't ban everyone who exploits, as evidenced by the massive amount of people form Ilum who remained unpunished, while only the worst offenders were. It is just bad business sense to ban everyone who miss-uses the system, especially in anything that is either "not that bad" or a "grey area."

I never claimed BW bans everyone who exploits, but they DO BAN a few. Some people got banned for Ilum exploits, some got banned for "8+ people in WZ" exploit. NOBODY has ever gotten banned for staying 49.

Third, I proved through a logical path way that believe/saying the "Leave Warzone" feature was intended to be used to dodge rewards is illogical, and goes against every other legitmate intenion in the game. The game has a natural cycle pre 50 (Particpation > Completion > Reward > Level). Leave Warzone has other legitimate reasons to exist, other than to intterupt this cycle.

Doesn't matter WHAT YOU believe to be the "natural" cycle of this game is. Dude, if I wanted to stay level 10 forever and leave WZs as a level 10 because I want to be a dick and gimp my WZ teammates, I can.

Considering the number of articles, dev posts, and even the ToS that myself and others have brought to the table, including the refuting of the one article and one dev post you brought, your assertion I am not meeting my burden of proof is pretty laughable. =P

 

Just like science, we can never be 100% sure of anything. I feel confident to say I'm 99% sure without bioware confirmation these things can be considered exploits, and I've brought articles, posts, and logical reasoning to prove it. If you wanna stick to the 1% uncertianity be my guest, but it's kinda like those folks who still think evolution is fake without their sky daddy coming down himself and smacking them with a textbook.

Proof would be linking us an article where BW says this is unintended or a bug or an exploit, or anything.

All you've done is merely the armchair philosopher's SWTOR version of trying to prove God's existent using Intelligent Design.

*ring ring ring*

/picks up phone

Hey Doom, it's the furniture store. They're calling me to let you know that you've got no legs to stand on.

Proof would be linking us an article where BW says this is unintended or a bug or an exploit, or anything.

This right here says it all. Until the quoted is posted, everything on this subject is nothing but speculation and wishful thinking.

This right here says it all. Until the quoted is posted, everything on this subject is nothing but speculation and wishful thinking.

and whining

*Snip*

*Rolls eyes.*

I'm done. =P good luck in life, you'll need it.

That would also help those who got disconnected during a game for whatever reason, their time spent in the WZ would not be totally wasted. Another goodie.

And that would put leveling through PvP on par with PvE.

And that would put leveling through PvP on par with PvE.

lolwut

no it wouldnt

Well if level 50 PvP didn't suck balls we wouldn't have this problem.

This to some degree. The huge leap between pre-50 and 50 PvP discourages people. Mostly the casual PvPers who get disgusted at trying to grind out gear by attacking an army of (to them) unkillable monsters with various weapons forged by Gods. PvPing and having fun for the casual player not looking to grind-out their gear is almost entirely for pre-50. After that it's like running OPs with 2-3 naked people and praying the bosses drop things they need so you don't die every fight.

Unfortunately that will not change. I don't like this method, and I don't support it. I am leveling a character from 46-50 entirely from PvP for coms so when I hit 50 I have some gear to start with. So I won't completely drag down my team. And that right there is the only reason I loath 50 PvP. You either have bleeding edge gear or you don't. The skill window is narrowed to so fine a space that certain skills/trees/ACs will kill you no matter what you do. It's something that needs an address for the casual PvP community, and then you'll stop seeing the weirdo-twinks.

*Rolls eyes.*

 

I'm done. =P good luck in life, you'll need it.

If you can't beat someone with logic, insult them. I win.

/flex

If you can't beat someone with logic, insult them. I win.

 

/flex

*rolls eyes again.*

You have provided two links.

One is an article on fixing bugs and exploits, and you claim this is enough to tell Bioware's definiton of an exploit. The article is specifically about bugs and exploits of bugs, and says nothing to the effect of "all exploits are bugs." You have failed to prove this is Bioware's sole definiton of what is an exploit.

You then provided an apology post from Bioware, and miss-stated it's context. The apology was for the GM's actions which broke several of Bioware's standards, and the actions of the players were not against the natural way a pvp server is intended. That link isn't even relevant to the conversation.

So no, I will not argue with a person whom uses their own definitons, backwards logic, and is plainly just stubborn. Now for your amusement, have a link to wikipedia, which has other sources quoted (in case you wanna pull "wikipedia's not a reliable source). Video Game Exploiting.

While I'm sure you'll cling to your "bioware's definition," note the section that covers both greifing using an exploit, and the list of common exploits where you will find "Game Mechanics."

See also: Griefing

 

While players more frequently exploit issues to gain advantage for themselves, sometimes they may use them instead to irritate other players, known as griefing.[3] One team of gamers in Team Fortress 2 produced popular online videos demonstrating their griefing and also several exploits present in the game, most of them being of little use for personal gain.[7] Another famous incident during the Ultima Online beta test saw a player kill Lord British when that character was supposed to be invincible; the tester was later banned for exploiting rather than reporting the bugs he found.[8]

Common types of exploits include:

 

Duping Duplicating items or money.

 

Lag and disconnection exploits A game with inadequate lag handling may let players intentionally cause lag for themselves to cause an advantage.[2] Similarly, a game that lets a player disconnect immediately with no consequences may let players exit a game without suffering a loss. (Shogun 2: Total War)

 

Geometry Taking advantage of how the game world is built. Typically the goal of these exploits is to reach normally inaccessible areas or take unintended shortcuts in the game world. These are commonly achieved by going through walls, crossing invisible barriers made by the programmers, or scaling ledges not intended to be climbable.

 

Twinking Taking advantage of design flaws in the game's gearing system in order to appear better than you actually are. Because of the EULA which twinking does not violate, it is very commonly patched in order to prevent such an exploit from posing a serious problem.

 

Movement speed bugs These usually allow the player to move faster than intended, such as bunny hopping. Many of these have been embraced by certain games, such as skiing in the Tribes series.

 

Safezones Places where a player can attack with no risk of being attacked back. This is often a form of an exploit in the geometry (terrain) of a game—however, a game may have areas that make players within them safe (especially in PvP games/zones where the opposing faction(s) may not enter) from attack while not disallowing the safe players to attack.

 

Game mechanics Taking advantage of the systems that make up the gameplay. A game mechanics exploit is not a bug—it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended. Things such as hitting an enemy in a zone then running off, knowing that when the enemy soon despawns you will get full credit for the "kill", as you did 100% of the damage to it (even though the damage did not kill it). Such as in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, where online you may come between a fight and it would not be a team battle, and characters would help one win. That means they would let one of the characters they are trying to help win, hit them then intentionally run off the stage to get the other player credit for killing them.

 

Each game has potential for exploits unique to that game's rules. For example, in World of Warcraft, wall-walking allowed a player to climb steep mountains that are supposed to be impassable to get into unfinished areas or make one's character not attackable by mobs or other players. EverQuest had an exploit in player versus player analogous to weight cutting in sports whereby a player would intentionally lose levels by dying in order to compete against lower-level players while wielding higher-level items and skills (game mechanics exploit). In the game City of Heroes people were using teleport powers to place others inside the PvP zones' watchtowers which, originally designed as props for atmosphere, had no way in or out if you could not teleport (the towers have since gained a doorway).

It is likely you will not receive another response from me. Good day sir.

I don't get the problem. I honestly don't get it. The people who do this and leave warzones early literally don't get anything out of it. No money, no exp, no comms, nothing! If anything, they're hurting themselves more than the opposite team, because all they do is waste their own time.

Even if you lose to them, you get more out of the match because you go away with experience and comms. And pre-50 PvP doesn't take that long (compared to 50 PvP anyway) and soon you'll have much more pressing issues to be concerned about.

I don't get the problem. I honestly don't get it. The people who do this and leave warzones early literally don't get anything out of it. No money, no exp, no comms, nothing! If anything, they're hurting themselves more than the opposite team, because all they do is waste their own time.

 

Even if you lose to them, you get more out of the match because you go away with experience and comms. And pre-50 PvP doesn't take that long (compared to 50 PvP anyway) and soon you'll have much more pressing issues to be concerned about.

They don't want Exp or Comms because they are twinks..

I don't get the problem. I honestly don't get it. The people who do this and leave warzones early literally don't get anything out of it. No money, no exp, no comms, nothing! If anything, they're hurting themselves more than the opposite team, because all they do is waste their own time.

 

Even if you lose to them, you get more out of the match because you go away with experience and comms. And pre-50 PvP doesn't take that long (compared to 50 PvP anyway) and soon you'll have much more pressing issues to be concerned about.

I tend to agree Keeva that it's not really an issue (for me any way). I've rarely seen them in warzones, it's hard to prove this is what they're doing, and it seems petty. However, it could be classified as a form of griefing (which has no personal gains) and it falls under the abuse of game mechanics.

The main reason this thread has last so long would probably be me arguing with a wall (I mean another poster) on whether or not this is can be defined as an exploit. =P Bioware wasted time on the Kaon Under Seige terrian exploit though...

You know, after reaching level 50, and going from "credit to the team no matter the level" to "Lol you just have recruit, enjoy watching our stacked team just steamroll you", yeah, I can see why some people would rather just not level up. Besides, if you don't like twinks in your precious under 50 bracket, hurry up and level to 50, and find out that, no, having the occasional marauder smashing your face in really isn't as bad as a whole team of laughing jedi.

HTFU

I tend to agree Keeva that it's not really an issue (for me any way). I've rarely seen them in warzones, it's hard to prove this is what they're doing, and it seems petty. However, it could be classified as a form of griefing (which has no personal gains) and it falls under the abuse of game mechanics.

 

The main reason this thread has last so long would probably be me arguing with a wall (I mean another poster) on whether or not this is can be defined as an exploit. =P Bioware wasted time on the Kaon Under Seige terrian exploit though...

It's not hard to proove. If person left WZ 200 times in a row, and it is in logs, there is something to it.

I dissagree (again) about being an exploit. Waste of their time, yes. Unfair (or griefieng?) to other people? no. All get bolster, 3k hp is not such a biggie. and between 40 and 49 ppl have most of t heir abilities, and person unfamiliar with competition on 50 wz (and staying on L 49 with twinked gear cause he sucks and this is only way he can 1vs anyone) will get owned by L 40 veteran ( or a L30 veteran in blues too)., so for fresh chars and newbies, twink 49 is pain in the A, but not biggest threat any way.

Kaon is bad example, it was clear exploit (and actually hard to prove, unless team mates were sending screenshots of thier own team doing kaon faster), since you did gain that fight using terrain bug being untouchable to mobs. L 49 twinked char is not untouchable in WZ, nor gaining anything easy way (nor getting anything at all).

Think we have 3 kind of people here.

1.thinks it's game breaking harrasment of weak players, should be bannable and guilty should be sent to hell

2.thinks it's minor issue.

3.thinks it's not an issue at all - pain,no gain, not an exploit.

and we all are wasting time (well, I'm at work deploying app to test serwer for QA team) posting, while other people have fun..

We have a 2 grade A *****' on Red Eclipse at the moment on the sith side who are doing this have been 49 for 2 weeks now appear to LD right at the end of warzones, fully auged full purpled 49 gear.

I'm on their side and they are a joke TBH seeing the lolsmashing jugg rack up 550k in voidstars etc is just ridiculous my 50 geared commando can't even do that and the badly played PT Pyro not too far behind him.

OP classes with OP gear in a bad system as to the manner that Bolster works.