Player housing, ON PLANET, in player built communities. Enough said.

Ya...That worked out so well in SWG. SWG is dead.

One of the nice thing in later wow (havent tried pandaria) was the phased events. Could easily have been done in swtor too. after finishing planetary questline you would phase to "planet2" where bonus quests would be. It helped moving the story forward in the areas.

 

And yes. SWTOR miss some mmo features.. it´s small things that you might not notice at first, but when you log into GW2 ex. the world feels more alive. It´s the tiny things like when you walk onto a farmground and the chickens go cluck cluck. It´s too bad i like swtor better. Much of the fluff things is just done better in other mmo´s. And lets face it. mmo´s needs loads of fluff. It´s not like a singleplayer game you play once, if it´s good you might replay a few times. People spend so much more time in a mmo that more fluff just pays off.

This is not a fact in anyway. GW2 does it way worse for me. You can't state that "GW2 feels alive and TOR doesn't" because that is just an opinion.

GW1 felt way more alive for me then GW2 did esp Nightfall felt very very alive. But again that is a personal opinion not a fact.

"Could easily have been done in TOR"

Again you don't know this and I don't either. Have any of us worked with the hero engine? You state things like they are facts when you lack the proper knowledge to keep slamming opinions around.

Ya...That worked out so well in SWG. SWG is dead.

LOL ya because player housing was totally the reason the game was shut down. Fail post is fail.

This game won't make it as long as galaxies lasted. Fact.

OK fair point. Obviously BW couldn't produce a game where throughout you could completely change the direction that it went in i.e. all roads lead to a certain encounter 2/3 of the way through KOTOR.

 

EDIT: As it would be too expensive to provide multiple storylines making different events spin off in different directions. END EDIT.

 

I seem to remember that you could change the game significantly at the end if you went dark-side. I mean things like that.

The same applies to a number of class stories. But still it's a "choose your ending" choice at the end with little heed payed to the rest of your playthrough. There's a lot of critique about this game, but as far as story goes, it's quality BioWare story unless you hit the level cap. If you truly want KotOR3, I'd recommend reading the books in this era, then playing Jedi Knight followed by Sith Warrior.

LOL ya because player housing was totally the reason the game wasn't shut down. Fail post is fail.

This game won't make it as long as galaxies lasted. Fact.

Fixed it for you.

Fixed it for you.

thanks!

Full disclosure: I never played a Bioware single player game.

 

I think the storyline is great, but the gameplay sucks. It's too disjointed. I can't be given an epic story and then be told to go kill 10 rats. It just doesn't work. Was the gameplay in KOTOR compelling and exciting or was it the same garbage? How about the other Bioware games?

 

I can go play Deus Ex: Human Revolution that has a great story and great gameplay. As a single player game, TOR fails. Good story alone does not make a good video game.

I agree there's too many collect/activate/deactivate the random thing in the game which you feel anyone could do.

As I was saying earlier, I wish they had concentrated on the main planet questlines a little bit more ie more heroic quests.

If they wanted to keep a few bonus extra funny quests in, all good. And I like the way that they used the bonus quests to give you optional extras. Those would've been good ways to beef up quest chains.

Agree with a lot of the things you talk about in your post however you could for example kill off you companions in the beta, however ofc all the kiddos killed off all their companions and then complained and QQed that they had no companions left so Bioware changed it.

 

But yes I agree with that in esp some story lines there is a continuity problem with your actions not having enough impact of what happens next.

 

Personally I like that TOR is a mmorpg because having other ppl running around that I can interact with makes the game feel more alive to me, that was my problem with KOTOR; when you were done you were done and since u were the only living being around the areas became very static.

 

Same problem in Mass Effect, I think that Bethesda is on a good way of fixing it with Skyrim but tavernas still need random drunks and more dancing, stuf going on for it to feel alive. Everyone just kinda sits around not hitting on each other or anything.

There was a awesome tavern mod for Morrowind were ppl were dancing, playing instruments, ppl were rumbling around with a custom "drunk walk". It was awesome and it really felt like a real fantasy taverna. Chaotic

Aw that's a shame still about companions. I'm sure it could've been fixed with a companion vendor or something. Joke. I mean getting a new one/s.

The same applies to a number of class stories. But still it's a "choose your ending" choice at the end with little heed payed to the rest of your playthrough. There's a lot of critique about this game, but as far as story goes, it's quality BioWare story unless you hit the level cap. If you truly want KotOR3, I'd recommend reading the books in this era, then playing Jedi Knight followed by Sith Warrior.

Oh I'm playing the game because I love the stories - I intend to experience all classes to the end

Thanks for the tip though!

The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story and not enough on other elements that MMO's have (emotes, intractable objects, mini games, exploration). Not to mention the amount of bugs (some of which has been since BETA), and servers that keeps crashing and lagging people off the game world.

 

EA / BioWare believe that people are poor and the sole reason why they lost people, but this is not the case. Your game is lacking soul. Your customer service is horrible and you only talk once it has been approved by the PR department.

Story has nothing to do with this game being less then par. IT has everything to do with tons of bugs , horrible engine, barely any world pvp on pvp servers and a multitude of other things. If this game didnt have the story it did now half if not more people would be gone.

The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story and not enough on other elements that MMO's have (emotes, intractable objects, mini games, exploration). Not to mention the amount of bugs (some of which has been since BETA), and servers that keeps crashing and lagging people off the game world.

 

EA / BioWare believe that people are poor and the sole reason why they lost people, but this is not the case. Your game is lacking soul. Your customer service is horrible and you only talk once it has been approved by the PR department.

Those wouldn't be important were this game an RPG. Then they could have cut all those useless MMO features and actually fleshed out the companions, the world, and the story.

The game's story is great for an MMO, but lacking when compared to a proper RPG.

It's really interesting that you get two really different perspectives on the game from the MMO and RPG crowd.

 

Essentially, I think that BW thought that they could marry both elements but (arguably) weren't able to. It was too big an undertaking in the end, I bet. The parts just wouldn't mesh together properly leaving a game that didn't satisfy both MMO and RPG fans.

 

I still love the stories in the game though - however, you can see what it could've been if it had been a true successor to KOTOR. Ah well.

Yes, very much so. You mostly hear from MMO fans around here, and they make this game out to be 100% an RPG, but form the opposite perspective it's just as much of a hybrid.

While it was interesting experiment I gladly hope they don't try to fuse the two genres again. I'd rather advoid playing any more MMOs.

...Essentially, SWTOR should've been the successor to KOTOR.

 

Hindsight is always a great thing and it's easy to see why SWTOR was made as an MMO. When it was started, WoW was booming and making tonnes of cash per month. EA wanted their own WoW, I'm sure!

 

Whatever the case, it now is very clear that the game would've been far better as an RPG launching with:

 

Two player characters Sith and Jedi with a choice if you want to go down either the Knight/Warrior or Consular/Inquisitor paths (much like KOTOR).

 

Each side would have the choice of two different stories (i.e. essentially the x4 Jedi/Sith stories that we have in-game) each depending on what path you choose.

 

Probably less incidental quests i.e. just the class quests and the main planet story thread quests.

 

The current Flashpoints would be like some of the class quest instances.

 

Probably less planets (an RPG has less $ development budget) and more a linear story-driven scripted progression through them with real choices and consequences.

 

If the game went well, then extra class stories (Smuggler & Bounty Hunter) and extensions to your class quests.

 

I'm saying this as the story is bar far the best part of the game. I don't think that SWTOR ever got credit for it and sadly - in retrospect - the story can't shine in an MMO. I think it would've done in an RPG.

But.... then i couldnt have played the amazing Imperial agent storyline! or the bounty hunter! or the smuggler! or the trooper!

All of which have far better story than the jedi/sith ones...

I'm starting to wonder the same thing. Whether SW:TOR should have been a single-player game instead. You see that they try to compromise on the single-player elements and MMO elements to make SW:TOR work, but did it work well?

Making KOTOR 3 an MMO means making a single-player game require online status, much like forcing people to go online for Diablo 3.

People also have different expectations for single player games and MMOs.

For single player games, people are ok with only 50-100 hours from a KOTOR 3, as long as the story is great. That is the expectation for single player RPGs. People do not expect to play it for a long time like MMOs. And if SW:TOR had been KOTOR 3, they do not need to worry about class balance, PvP, gear itemization, etc. They can just go crazy and create absurd Force powers to tell a good story.

On the other hand, people have different expectations for MMOs. You read threads on the forums where people applaud the leveling experience thanks to story, but then they feel flat at level 50 because there is no more story.

In order for people to justify paying for a MMO sub, they need to be able to keep playing. But it is with sadness that, it is actually not possible to keep playing for the story. The devs cannot churn out story content fast enough for the players to consume. You now read theories of how difficult it is to add new story because of the bottleneck that cutscenes and voice-overs take up.

And the people who play SW:TOR for the story, don't like to do MMO stuff like PvP, FPs and raiding. They just want more story.

So do single player games and MMOs mesh well? Right now it doesn't look that way.

Should SW:TOR have been a RPG instead? Sadly, I think yes. But, I still think they can make it work. SW:TOR does have a lot of potential other than story. I'm sure some people wished KOTOR had multiplayer.

Mini games, mini games, mini games.

Play Pazaak with other players.

Swoop racing could be on different planets with different tracks. Integrate it with the MMO world by allowing players to craft vehicles parts for swoop racing. Let those customizations be visible on your actual vehicle. The same vehicle you use to move around the MMO world is the same one that you use for swoop racing. Add story to it, challenge the evil elusive swoop racer slaver to a final showdown.

And the SSSP. Integrate it in the MMO world as well. I thought they could do what FTL does.

The reason why this game is loosing subs is because they focused too much on story and not enough on other elements that MMO's have (emotes, intractable objects, mini games, exploration). Not to mention the amount of bugs (some of which has been since BETA), and servers that keeps crashing and lagging people off the game world.

 

EA / BioWare believe that people are poor and the sole reason why they lost people, but this is not the case. Your game is lacking soul. Your customer service is horrible and you only talk once it has been approved by the PR department.

They should have just made KOTOR 3, no classes, you can be what ever you want, and it would have a much more complex story and deeper companions.

I tend to agree. I see so much potential for fleshing out story, companion stories, quests' background stories, class stories... etc. that will forever be unused and it makes me sad. A lot of story elements feel unfinished, rushed and just ending unexpectedly before anything is really revealed resp. resolved. I imagine a single player game would have had more room for a complex, consistent, fleshed out story and also would have provided better focus on story during development.

But.... then i couldnt have played the amazing Imperial agent storyline! or the bounty hunter! or the smuggler! or the trooper!

All of which have far better story than the jedi/sith ones...

I know what you mean!

I was trying to be pragmatic in my original post and second-guessing what an RPG version of the game might've been like and assuming that BW wouldn't have bad infinite $ i.e. providing Jedi and Sith stories would've been only possible, initially.

How I was imagining the other class stories to come into play would be either as content expansions (new starter planet! Play as either a BH or SM through the original planets with new stories which intertwine around the original Jefi or Sith stories!).

Or have really expanded characters ie one of your companions is a trooper or IA and you can choose to explore their much expanded storylines (most of their stories in the game).

So then you'd have an RPG where there is just your class/main character quests, main planet storyline and companion quests. Less of the 'collect X' mail delivery style quests.

I tend to agree. I see so much potential for fleshing out story, companion stories, quests' background stories, class stories... etc. that will forever be unused and it makes me sad. A lot of story elements feel unfinished, rushed and just ending unexpectedly before anything is really revealed resp. resolved. I imagine a single player game would have had more room for a complex, consistent, fleshed out story and also would have provided better focus on story during development.

I'm playing all the classes and I'm getting the impression that there was originally meant to be much more story and pot twists. I imagine that those things were dropped as it was getting expensive, running out of time and conflicting with the MMO part I.e. it must've been really hard to mesh an open multiplayer world with the linear RPG character and story driven elements of the game.

I also think that somewhere along the line, the game was switched from a BW RPG with MMO events to an MMO with RPG elements ie the MMO voices in BW EA got louder.

By the way, I have no evidence for the above - it's just a feeling!

I'm starting to wonder the same thing. Whether SW:TOR should have been a single-player game instead. You see that they try to compromise on the single-player elements and MMO elements to make SW:TOR work, but did it work well?

 

Making KOTOR 3 an MMO means making a single-player game require online status, much like forcing people to go online for Diablo 3.

 

People also have different expectations for single player games and MMOs.

 

For single player games, people are ok with only 50-100 hours from a KOTOR 3, as long as the story is great. That is the expectation for single player RPGs. People do not expect to play it for a long time like MMOs. And if SW:TOR had been KOTOR 3, they do not need to worry about class balance, PvP, gear itemization, etc. They can just go crazy and create absurd Force powers to tell a good story.

 

On the other hand, people have different expectations for MMOs. You read threads on the forums where people applaud the leveling experience thanks to story, but then they feel flat at level 50 because there is no more story.

In order for people to justify paying for a MMO sub, they need to be able to keep playing. But it is with sadness that, it is actually not possible to keep playing for the story. The devs cannot churn out story content fast enough for the players to consume. You now read theories of how difficult it is to add new story because of the bottleneck that cutscenes and voice-overs take up.

 

And the people who play SW:TOR for the story, don't like to do MMO stuff like PvP, FPs and raiding. They just want more story.

 

So do single player games and MMOs mesh well? Right now it doesn't look that way.

 

Should SW:TOR have been a RPG instead? Sadly, I think yes. But, I still think they can make it work. SW:TOR does have a lot of potential other than story. I'm sure some people wished KOTOR had multiplayer.

 

Mini games, mini games, mini games.

Play Pazaak with other players.

Swoop racing could be on different planets with different tracks. Integrate it with the MMO world by allowing players to craft vehicles parts for swoop racing. Let those customizations be visible on your actual vehicle. The same vehicle you use to move around the MMO world is the same one that you use for swoop racing. Add story to it, challenge the evil elusive swoop racer slaver to a final showdown.

And the SSSP. Integrate it in the MMO world as well. I thought they could do what FTL does.

Great post! Really agree with you.

Sadly, I bet that BW has a big list full of really cool stuff like you mentioned but I think that we are not going to see a lot of it. Simply because I doubt the game is ever going to gain enough traction. It pains me to say that because there's some amazing stuff there - flawed genius.

Player housing, ON PLANET, in player built communities. Enough said.

Oh come on, that just looks bad in EVERY game. Bunches of copy-pasta houses stuck here and there in crappy way on a flat area dedicated only to them. Or would they look different for, let's say, different classes? Tell me more how well would a patchwork of different futuristic houses look in typical MMO player housing system.

I saw the SWG player towns and they looked poopoo. I don't want such abominations in TOR. I would rather see them work on spaceship customization. Our characters sleep, eat, plan, live and romance companions in there. THIS is our player housing.

Planetary player housing in TOR is a big no-no for me unless you come up with something that actually looks good.

If they were going to make a single-player RPG it should have been KOTOR 3 that almost was but now never will be:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_3

Maybe TOR would have made a great follow-up RPG or something, but I'm not complaining *hinthint*.

The story held the attention of many, many people I know that otherwise rarely get out of the starting areas in MMO. These people subscribed for months leveling multiple characters in a genre that otherwise holds no interest for them. However, once they experienced all they cared to experience, and because the stories weren't being expanded, they left.

 

A lot of them even dabbled in the endgame, many of them for the first time ever. But without the thing that hooked them in the first place, without a visible commitment to keep progressing the story, they left. And if this was true of my gaming circle, I can't imagine how many other similar situations occurred.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I have leveled 5 characters to max level in this game. I have played other mmo's in the past and have leveled one character to max, and perhaps one alt. That is it. The reason I did it here was to experience as much of the story as possible... they really made leveling a pleasure, whereas in other mmo's it felt like a long, boring grind.

Now, had they focused on the endgame more, I think a lot more people would have stuck around. They pull you in with the story, you get to the endgame, you run the fps and ops a bunch of times, gear up... and then what? I leveled another alt or three, but for people who only like to level one character, the endgame is pretty dry. It would also help if the game wasn't so buggy and generally unstable as well.

I see this game as having had incredible potential, but it fell far short in some very key areas, unfortunately. And yes, I agree, it would have been a great rpg. As it sits, that's all it really has going for it.