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Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

ViktorAres's Avatar


ViktorAres
06.26.2017 , 03:10 PM | #391
DPS sorc's current self-heals are weak though. It taken forever to heal to full after using phase walk. The self-heal should have been buffed, not nerfed. With the Trauma Regulators and Kolto-overload, DPS mercs are already much better self-healers and off-healers than DPS sorcs, and their healing is NOT getting nerfed.

Also the Static Barrier / Force Armor before the nerf is already much weaker than the shields of comparable classes such as merc and sniper, both of which have much higher DPS and better armor.

Nerfing self-heals and static barrier for all sorcs does not make any logical sense at all.

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
06.26.2017 , 05:24 PM | #392
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhurwin View Post
Based off the Parsely parses of the Sorcerers who placed in the top 1% on Anni Droid in EVHM (the 1st boss) Dark Heal's average heal was 11995 (2291064 uses / 191 casts) not 15k... which is 9260 HPS for the duration of the cast (avg heal / 1.29 which is the GCD for a sorc healer with "optimal stats" according to http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ighlight=stats)
Can't remember what caused the confusion, but I checked the values again and you're right. The avg. damage is lower than 15k. I apologize. Maybe I was looking at the avg. crit. damage, who knows...

But even if you consider a lower average, the value of my argument doesn't change... the HPS values of Dark Heal compared to Innervate. So let's use a few Annihilator Droid parses as a reference this time:

Innervate - Feihtëkiltac: 920,793 total, 34 uses => ~27,082 heal per use | 2.285s = 11,852 per sec
Innervate - Hot Spread: 804,261 total, 33 uses => ~24,372 heal per use | 2.016s = 12,089 per sec
Innervate - Instågråm: 836,030 total, 31 uses => ~26,969 heal per use | 2.438s = 11,062 per sec
Innervate - Lova: 804,039 total, 31 uses => ~25,937 heal per use | 2.408s = 10,771 per sec

Dark Heal - Feihtëkiltac: 1 use => so not really comparable
Dark Heal - Hot Spread: 183,333 total, 16 uses => ~11,458 per use | 1.323s = 8,660 per sec
Dark Heal - Instågråm: 121,765 total, 10 uses => ~12,177 per use | 1.341s = 9,081 per sec
Dark Heal - Lova: 133,838 total, 31 uses => ~13,384 per use | 1.403s = 9,540 per sec

So Dark Heal is significantly worse than Innervate. In fact it's that bad that you should try to avoid it, just like Feihtëkiltac did. Oh and just a funny side note:

Dark Infusion - Feihtëkiltac: 0 uses
Dark Infusion - Lova: 0 uses

And assuming 1.8s for an unbuffed Dark Infusion
Dark Heal - Instågråm: 221,705 total, 12 uses => ~18,475 per use | 1.8s = 10,264 per sec

But I guess you'll come up with another explaination why it would make total sense for this skill to be that awful, just to make sure noone touches the beloved Innervate.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dhurwin View Post
No, why shouldn't the heal we rely on to maintain our force be ACTUALLY worth casting HPS-wise. Why that would make too much sense.
The answer is: class & inter-skill balance. A skill should either be powerful or 'energy efficient' but not both. But right now, Innervate is strictly better than Dark Heal.

So rather than keeping an overly powerful skill and justify this with another inbalance - a lower force cost - makes no sense. It would be better to fix the effectiveness and the cost.

But that's the main problem of the whole class and the reason why the devs change the costs with every new patch => they sinply don't address the real cause. Usually, a channel skill has a higher cost because it's basically 2 skills in 1 => roughly twice as effective and originally lasts for two GCDs. So it would make sense to give this skill twice the cost as well.

That's why a Suppressive Fire consumes 45 energy over the course of 4.5s. It takes three GCDsto channrel it and therefore has three times the cost.

So what BioWare would actually have to do:
Dark Heal = 40 force | ~1.35s => ~30 force per sec
Dark Infusion = 60 force | ~1.8s => ~33 force oer sec
Innervate = 70 force | ~2.4s => 29 force per sec

But 5 years later and they still randomly apply +5 or -5 pts.

And if we just take the existing HPS values, a more balanced version would like this:
(Let's use your 11,995 Dark Heal average (or 12k for simplicity) as a base)
Dark Heal = ~1.35s & ~8.880k per sec => ~12k per use
Dark Infusion = ~1.8s & ~8.890k per sec => ~16k per use
Innervate = ~2.4s & ~8.8k per sec => 21.3k per use

Now guess what my proposals for Dark Infusion & Innervate would achieve...

Quote:
The ability to do things on the move is useful in PvE, but has a much much MUCH bigger impact in PvP and should not apply when considering how to "balance" its HPS. I understand the definition of "balance" I just don't agree that Sorc healers are out of said "balance" currently and also see no reason to touch Innervate, or any of our skills for that matter.
Why shouldn't it apply? What's your justification to exclude it? So it it's not relevant, let's add a 1.5s activation time to Roaming Mend. Would still have the same HPS value and according to you 'mobility' doesn't matter.

Quote:
Just because we have abilities that heal multiple targets doesn't mean they'll be worth it to cast. So just to make it clear: You do know that Revivification has an "fi" in it, and that it's basically worthless to cast outside of a few instances where you can hit EVERYONE with it, and it's getting a HUGE nerf as well, right?
Ok, let's check the parsely operation board on that as well:

Revivication - Feihtëkiltac: 1,486,487 total, 17 uses => 87,440 per use
Revivication - Hot Spread: 1,138,671 total, 12 uses => 94,889 per use
Revivication - Instågråm: 979,254 total, 10 uses => 97,925 per use
Revivication - Lova: 917,696 total, 11 uses =>83,427 per use

So you're absolutely right!!! This skill sucks so much, it's - quote : "basically worthless".
But sarcasm aside, ket's use the Revivication of Hot Spread and have a closer look:

Avg Heal: 984.2
Avg. Crit: 1,685.69
Crit Chance: 46.49%
--------------------------------------
True avg: ~1,310 damage per tick

Due to the fact that it lasts for 10s,, that's 11 ticks in total. Point is, the skill would therefore heal 14,410 per target. And that means the following:

1 target and it's as good as a Dark Heal
2 targets and it's better than both a Dark Infusion or an Innervate


But still you claim it's worthless - quote: outside of a few instances where you can hit EVERYONE with it

Quote:
Right now - based off starparse ratings - we do NOT do a MASSIVE amount more healing than the other classes, so any attempt to "lower healing to a reasonable amount" would just serve to cripple the class. It's already reasonable, whether you want to admit it or not, and to go any lower would be akin to giving us band-aids and telling us to mend gushing wounds.
Let's once again take the Annihilation Droid parses:

Static Barrier- Feihtëkiltac: 20 uses
Static Barrier - Hot Spread: 11 uses
Static Barrier - Instågråm: 12 uses
Static Barrier - Lova: 17 uses

So now feel free to assume any damage value you think is reasonable for a Static Barrier to prevent per use and add this to the already existing 'healing done' value.

Or you can take Bant's numbers and realize that a Sorcerer has a 5~22% advantage over the Mercenary. Let's than apply a 30% nerf to an existing parse:

Roaming Mend - Feihtëkiltac:
974,990 total => x0.3 = 292,497
4,406,699 overall heals minus 292,497 = 4,114,202 = 93,36% of the orriginal value => a ~6.6 HPS loss.

Quote:
The average tick of Progressive Scan was 6,335 (5,866,872 healing / 926 ticks) over the course of the cast it had an average of 9.54 ticks (10*(926 total ticks / 970 potential ticks)) leading to a total average heal of 60483 (avg tick amount*avg # of ticks) which mercs spent and average of 1.99 seconds casting (2.08 the channel time with optimal stats from the aforementioned stats thread*(926/970)) and an average HPS of 30357 (total heal / average time spent channeling)

Where as Roaming Mend had an average tick of 15,922 healing / 893 ticks) ticking an average of 3.50 times (893 total ticks / 1020 potential ticks) leading to a total average heal of 55,759 (avg heal * avg # of ticks) and with a GCD of 1.29 with "optimal" stats this is an average HPS of 43049 (total avg heal / GCD)

So contrary to your "67% advantage" this is only a 41.81% "advantage" in terms of HPS. ((Roaming Mend - Progressive Scan)/ Progressive Scan)*100 %
Ok, let's once again check the Annihilation Droid parses to see more realistic channel durations, shall we?
Because you used "realistic" data for the rest as well:

Progressive Scan - Toq'toq 2.297s average
Roaming Mend - Feihtëkiltac: 1,279s average

Progressive Scan: 60,483 per use | 2.297s = 26,331 per sec
Roaming Mend: 55,759 per use | 1.279s = 43,596 per sec
43,596 / 26,331 = ~1,656 => 65% advantage

And without any misses:
Progressive Scan: 6,335 damage per tick; 10 ticks max. => ~63,350 per use | 2.297s = 27,579 per sec
Roaming Mend: 15,922 damage per jump; 4 jumps max. => ~63,688 per use | 1.279s = 49,795 per sec

49,795 / 27,579 = ~1,8% => 80% advantage

Bristol's Avatar


Bristol
06.26.2017 , 07:35 PM | #393
Some interesting info...

Current 5.0 - 5.2.2 Seer Sage / Corruption Sorcerer: -13.26% eHPS and -15.27% total HPS.

./dropsmic

Quote: Originally Posted by Bristol View Post
With the aid of parsely.io, I just complied some Effective Healing per Second (eHPS) numbers for all of the Hard Mode Operations.

Google Sheet with Bulk Data

Summary of Highest eHPS per healing advanced Class:
Medicine Operative: 18,242 eHPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}
Bodyguard Mercenary: 16,751 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-8.17%}
Corruption Sorcerer: 15,823 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-13.26%}

Summary of Highest Total HPS per healing advanced Class:
Medicine Operative: 22,984 HPS (8M HM Malaphar [TOS]) {100.00%}
Corruption Sorcerer: 19,399 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-15.27%}
Bodyguard Mercenary: 18,556 HPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF]) {-19.27%}
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doggone's Avatar


doggone
06.26.2017 , 09:59 PM | #394
Been playing Sage since release, it's the only character I really give a crap about. I've been having fun again after a looong break, but if this ruins my favorite character, I'm out. Lightning is still fun to play, but if just can not match other specs or even close. I mainly play heals so this is is just kind of a kick in the balls, I'll give it a shot, but if it's too much, I'm not waiting around for you to fix it. Enjoying the game, but it's like the same ops I was doing a year or more ago, story is pretty good, but short. I enjoy playing the class I wanted to play for like 3 years before the game even released. Ruin it at your own wallets peril, if that even matters anymore. Random rant that will change no ones mind...over.
Do what thou wilt be whole of the law.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
06.26.2017 , 10:35 PM | #395
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
So Dark Heal is significantly worse than Innervate. In fact it's that bad that you should try to avoid it, just like Feihtëkiltac did.
Well of course you should avoid it.

If we list the expansions during which hard cast Dark Heal/Benevolence have rated, "this ability sucks, avoid it if possible," we get:
  • 1.0
  • 2.0
  • 3.0
  • 4.0
  • 5.0

The only reason you see it at all is that with procs it becomes instant and free and there are occasionally places in a rotation where there's nothing better to do.

"Dark Heal sucks," is a classic element of Sorc healing.

The core of sage healing has always run more or less along these lines for a stable rotation:

Shield primary target(s)
HoT primary target(s) to set up procs.
Channeled heal to get procs for regen and/or burst heals.
Slow cast mana efficient heal filler.
AOE heals as needed and as procs/force pool allow.
Cleanse as needed.
Force regen as needed.
Do nifty things with utilities.
Put Short Cast heal somewhere where it doesn't clutter up the UI.

Sage and Sorc healing as a whole are messed up largely because of changes they've made to controllable burst, efficiency, and output in ways that have significantly reduced the need to adhere to that sort of rotation structure.

HoT: Increased initial heal multiple times, changed to make clipping and single target overhealing turn into effective single target healing. Result: increased burst, increased efficiency, Increased single target output, reduced number of targets needed to reach max eHPS from 3 to 1.

AOEs: Nerfed Salvation pretty hard, but then compensated by introducing a new AOE heal vastly more powerful than Salvation most situations. There were a lot of people upset about getting Wandering Mend. Mostly because they were fond of the moderately OP Salvation, and didn't forsee the extent to which Wandering Mend could be OP. There was also a lack of appreciation for how easily you can use positioning to control double jumping it in conjunction with a proc. The insane level of burst that come with a proc was also largely overlooked at first. Result: Salvation went from a "cancel a whole raid worth of standing in stupid," level AOE, to a pretty decent AOE. Ease of use was increased by making targets just have to wander through the area rather than stand in it for the duration of the HoT (whatever makes DPS players stand in damage effect areas for the entire duration also makes them exit healing effect areas as quickly as possible). The bonus being that to compensate for a moderate nerf we got a giant and highly efficient semi-targetable burst(with proc, but there are always enough procs to allow using it as a burst heal) as a freebie. Woot!

That's pretty much it.

Now Dark Heal has never done what it was really supposed to do. The design has always pointed to being an emergency heal. The idea being that with a quick cast time the player can create a peak in HPS at the expense of a very high force cost.

The problem is that the HPS from Dark Heal has never been sufficiently faster or bigger than any other options to reliably be worth casting. Dark Infusion is slower, but not so much so that a healer that's anticipating well is going to really gain from using Dark Heal. You just start the cast a bit earlier, and get a bigger burst when the heal lands.
Or use Static Barrier, and get a front loaded damage prevention giving time to hard cast a Dark Infusion. Then with buffs to Resurgence's initial heal and the creation of Roaming Mend, Dark Heal became even less appealing. To top it off, they then took the force sink ability and made it both instant and free on proc. Not much of a force sink at that point, and it's still pretty unappealing.

For an emergency heal, it's pretty small and pretty slow. Regardless of cost, as long as those are true it won't be used for what it was meant to do. The other problem is that with every patch starting with 2.0, Bioware has loaded more and more front end burst to Sage/Sorc heals that weren't really designed for a massive front end burst heal role.

Balance wise it's as if their boat was leaking, and they took a hole saw drill bit to drill out a plug from the other side of the hull to try to patch the existing leak. So the initial leak is smaller, but overall the boat is sinking faster.

Dark heal's problem isn't that Innervate is doing exactly what Innervate is meant to do. It's that Dark Heal has never been good at what Dark Heal is supposed to do, combined with Roaming mend, Resurgence, Static Barrier, and even Dark Infusion being pretty good at Dark Heal's job to start with, and most having been buffed multiple times to be even better as emergency heals.

To fix it you'd need to make Dark Heal bigger, faster, and more expensive while at the same time taking the frontloading off of Resurgence and nerfing the snot out of Roaming mend (though for Dark Heal, the important part wouldn't be the raw output of Roaming Mend, it would be removing the insta-jump on proc. The ability to realize the full burst potential of Roaming Mend on every cast is where most of it's insane power comes from).

Oh, and Stat reallocation has also had an effect. With the slimming down of attributes we now get more crit, hence more procs, and so getting enough procs is almost never a limiting factor anymore. You used to have to save procs for regen, and then use the leftover procs wisely. Now you can almost use every potential procced ability on cooldown without having to worry about running out of procs for regen.

Basically the tradeoffs that are supposed to bring some balance to Sage/Sorc healing rotations have been eliminated. Most of it in relation to timing burst, and a little bit in relation to efficiency and output. They're nerfing that output hard, but doubling down on misallocation of burst and resource cost.

I suppose if I were having a go at balancing Sage/Sorc I'd do something along the lines of:

Resurgence/Rejuvenation 20% initial heal, 80% HoT, reapplying before expiration clips the remainder of the existing HoT from the previous application.

Roaming/Wandering Mend Change effect of Conveyance proc to cause mend charges to jump on damage or after 0.5 seconds without damage. The idea being to neuter the burst but not waste stacks of the mend if there's a gap in hits. For that matter even a 1 second timer might work.

Dark Heal, make it a 1 second or less base cast, make it heal more than Dark Infusion and make it painfully expensive. Say 110 force for 125% of Dark Infusion's healing or something like that.

Might also reduce the max number of resplendence charges from 3 to 2.
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Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
06.27.2017 , 12:39 AM | #396
Quote: Originally Posted by Lahandra View Post
Here we go with this again...... Survivability of DPS sorcs in HM/NiM or PVP wasn't really THAT big of a deal prior to 5.0. The only thing in need of address, and it's already on the list for Madness is the DPS output. If they in turn address lightning at some point, and add a self heal and possible boost to dps in the rotation of that spec somewhere, it all balances out. Stop with "THE SKY IS FALLING" garbage. Currently, you can run a DPS sorc through any of the HM content in either DPS spec, and so long as you play smart, it's totally viable. The only place it's suffering is NiM and PVP, and in both cases it's DPS output that's the problem, not the self heals.
So why nerf it if it wasn't a big deal? We also had better dps prior to 5.0, but not anymore.
You want to know something, the sky is falling for Lightning Sorcs because they will be rubbish,
Let me guess, you don't even play one, so you don't even understand the arguement from our point of view.
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Lahandra's Avatar


Lahandra
06.27.2017 , 12:58 AM | #397
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
So why nerf it if it wasn't a big deal? We also had better dps prior to 5.0, but not anymore.
You want to know something, the sky is falling for Lightning Sorcs because they will be rubbish,
Let me guess, you don't even play one, so you don't even understand the arguement from our point of view.
The nerf was because sorc heals were OP.... Plain and simple...... And you guessed quite wrong..... I main'd a sorc from 2.0 through the current content playing all three specs thoughout and currently have one at T4. I don't choose to take it into nightmare ops as it's just not putting up the numbers, but again, it has nothing to do with self heals or the ability to survive. I would happily take it into any HM raid at the moment though, and would put up perfectly viable numbers to finish any of those ops. Madness is getting a DPS boost regardless, and hopefully lightning will be addressed at some point as well, so again, if you simply added a self heal in the rotation of lightning these heal changes wouldn't hinder us at all in op's. Again, the sky isn't falling....
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Hichitsuki-hime's Avatar


Hichitsuki-hime
06.27.2017 , 02:29 AM | #398
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhurwin View Post
best idea outside of leaving this poor class alone maybe
well there is that. but lol. it is indeed a sad tendency: they always seem to either buff something and then realize they over-did it. and then they over-nerf it and then it starts all over again. after 5 years of the same fact, i'm not even bothering saying leave it alone, that is just not going to happen lol.
The Red Eclipse: Ka'nata (madness sorc) <Indefinite>;
Ebon Hawk: Sa'yana <Army of Light>
5/5 NiM TFB; 7/7 NiM S&V; 5/5 NiM DF; 3/5 NIM DP; 5/5 HM RAV; 5/5 HM ToS
#Fix SAGE DPS # R.I.P. SAGE HEALS

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
06.27.2017 , 03:43 AM | #399
Quote: Originally Posted by Bristol View Post
Some interesting info...
Current 5.0 - 5.2.2 Seer Sage / Corruption Sorcerer: -13.26% eHPS and -15.27% total HPS.
./dropsmic
I'm sorrry but that conclusion is stupid. It only shows that there was a single boss fight where an Operative had an overly powerful result => Malaphar.... a boss with a special 'buff/debuff mechanic. Let's skip that boss and it's.

Summary of Highest eHPS per healing advanced Class:
Bodyguard Mercenary: 16,751 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])
Medicine Operative: 16,252 eHPS (Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])
Corruption Sorcerer: 15,823 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])

Bristol's Avatar


Bristol
06.27.2017 , 05:23 AM | #400
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
I'm sorrry but that conclusion is stupid. It only shows that there was a single boss fight where an Operative had an overly powerful result => Malaphar.... a boss with a special 'buff/debuff mechanic. Let's skip that boss and it's.

Summary of Highest eHPS per healing advanced Class:
Bodyguard Mercenary: 16,751 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])
Medicine Operative: 16,252 eHPS (Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])
Corruption Sorcerer: 15,823 eHPS (8M HM Nefra, Who Bars the Way [DF])
Google Sheet with Bulk Data

Alrighty then:
Average Effective Heals across all 8M HM Bosses where parsely.io has data is:
Medicine Operative: 11,287 eHPS {100.00%}
Corruption Sorcerer: 11,129 eHPS {-1.40%}
Bodyguard Mercenary: 10,2456 eHPS {-7.37%}

Average Total Heals across all 8M HM Bosses where parsely.io has data is:
Medicine Operative: 15,420 HPS {100.00%}
Corruption Sorcerer: 13,061 HPS {-15.30%}
Bodyguard Mercenary: 12,288 HPS {-20.31%}

Does this PvE data warrant a 30% nerf to Seer/Corruption healing when they clearly are not the highest healing class?

Alternatively: Commando/Mercenary and Scoundrel/Operative have VERY passable DPS options whereas Sorcerer/Sage so very clearly does not.
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