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Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
07.30.2013 , 02:08 PM | #21
That nerf was so the other buffs wouldn't make it OP

warstory's Avatar


warstory
07.30.2013 , 03:13 PM | #22
Those asking for thunder blast to be reduced in order to get a instant is not a smart idea it does t hit as hard as other instant casts to begin with. I can live with a 8 sec 2.0 sec cast with the dmg it does now.

Make it a instant cast increase the dmg at the expense of our barrier that's is fair. So we basically channel our barriers energy in to that 1 blast .
"Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the force "

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
07.30.2013 , 04:21 PM | #23
It crits at like 7-8k, the only thing remotely close to that is when Chain Lightning crits. The idea is that you would still use Affliction, so it would be an insta-crit.

As for the Barrier thing, doesn't already have like a 2 minute cooldown or something? Although it would be cool if you broke your channel on Force Barrier using Thundering Blast, it would be an instant.

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.30.2013 , 04:34 PM | #24
Grats to both Psirebral and Nibbon!

1) PVE/PVP - Force REGEN is a BIG problem in TWO SPEC's (Corruption & Madness) and not just the Madness Spec. (Lightning Spec doesn't use as much due to nice regen buffs).

2) PVE/PVP - I think someone mentioned before that Resurgence is decent, but it could be a LOT BETTER. In fact I think if you innervate/dark infusion/dark heal someone WITH Resurgence BUFF they automatically CRIT (its a 15 sec buff like affliction for DPS). This would dramatically help SORC's keep TANKS alive during nasty fights (NiM) and provide that much needed "BURST HEALS" we are lacking. Right now you are better with Merc/OP's dedicated to tanks (SIN Especially) for good burst. (Not saying we can't heal tanks solo, its just degraded over other healers).

3) PVE/PVP Cross Class - Healing RELIC - Is to be blunt "Crap" for everyone but SIN Tanks. WHY? (Sorry my pet peeve as we have tons of relics for Tanks & DPS, but no real "Healing" relic worth anything.) Maybe if the Healing BONUS was actually applied to this relics benefit it wouldn't be so bad? I use my EWH or BA and UW SA to heal.

Raises the following questions (Can be used/abused & reworded)
  • Force Bending is granted for 10 seconds when Resurgence is cast. WHY is it not 15 seconds like Resurgence? If you cast you have a 6 second CD (Even w/553 Alacrity). WHY does it disappear on the first use (Say Dark Heal) and not allow 2-3 casts <10 sec.
  • Can we make Polarity Shift Passive in top 6/7 row of TREES instead of a click. (Helps Regen & Casting)
  • Why doesn't the other two SPEC's have similar force use/regen as Lightning? (Would solve a LOT of issues)
  • Why don't Sorc Healers have a "FREE HEAL" that uses ZERO Force Like Merc Heals (Rapid Shots & Emerg Scan) / OP Heals (Diag Scan)? (Yes overload is free, but Merc's have Jet Boost and OPS have cool buffs)

Annoying questions:
  • Why is Conspiring Force (DPS item) in Corruption Tree (Healing?)
  • Why isn't Reserves (Healing item) in the Corruption Tree (Healing and Madness need more than Lightning)
Reference Link: Why not? http://www.swtor.com/r/FDltnT
WTB Legacy Bound Ear, Implants, Relics

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
07.30.2013 , 04:54 PM | #25
1) Lightning doesn't have a Force issue because of 3 things:
-Electric Induction: Reduces force cost of everything by 9% (with 3 points)
-Subversion: Increases force regen by 30% while using our filler move
-Lightning Effusion: Reduces the cost of the next 2 attacks by 75% when an attack crits (and we have an autocrit every 11 seconds )
Just in case you were wondering.
2) I would like a free heal
3) Doesn't Serendipitous Assault benefit healers as well? Although bringing back Ephemeral Mending would be a nice thing, that isn't really a Sorc issue.

I think Conspiring Force is a PvP thing, and Lightning already has a slow. As for Reserves, I don't really see that it matters too much where they put it since each class takes it anyways.

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.30.2013 , 05:00 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEndonae View Post
1) Lightning doesn't have a Force issue because of 3 things:
-Electric Induction: Reduces force cost of everything by 9% (with 3 points)
-Subversion: Increases force regen by 30% while using our filler move
-Lightning Effusion: Reduces the cost of the next 2 attacks by 75% when an attack crits (and we have an autocrit every 11 seconds )
Just in case you were wondering.
2) I would like a free heal
3) Doesn't Serendipitous Assault benefit healers as well? Although bringing back Ephemeral Mending would be a nice thing, that isn't really a Sorc issue.

I think Conspiring Force is a PvP thing, and Lightning already has a slow. As for Reserves, I don't really see that it matters too much where they put it since each class takes it anyways.
  • YES! We all know WHY Lightning SPEC doesn't use so much Force. Question is WHY don't the other spec's have same setup?
  • Free Heal to be CAST on someone else is the question. We all got a great free self heal and hamster ball.
  • YES. SA does benefit ALL Classes and that's why I put "Cross Class" in the BOLD WHITE. The relic needs a rework or healing version really made for all healing classes.
  • Reserves has no place in Lightning tree if it's not needed by that spec. Beef it up and move it.
Reference Link: Why not? http://www.swtor.com/r/FDltnT
WTB Legacy Bound Ear, Implants, Relics

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
07.30.2013 , 05:24 PM | #27
I read the cross class part, it still doesn't change my point though. And a beefed up Reserves would be interesting/fun...

Since I'm lightning and therefore have no regen issues, there isn't really a point for me to know the force cost of anything, so would it work if they just made Resurgence the free heal or would that be too OP?

Second idea, while in Force Barrier, you would regenerate Force at a faster rate.

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.30.2013 , 05:34 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEndonae View Post
I read the cross class part, it still doesn't change my point though. And a beefed up Reserves would be interesting/fun...

Since I'm lightning and therefore have no regen issues, there isn't really a point for me to know the force cost of anything, so would it work if they just made Resurgence the free heal or would that be too OP?

Second idea, while in Force Barrier, you would regenerate Force at a faster rate.
We have three questions. PVE / PVP / OTHER - can be used as an OTHER, but as it's a "Healing" and we have 2/3 DPS in this class it's a "Maybe" for others as the third question to go forward. OPTIONS are just being presented.

I think it would be great if Resurgence was a FREE Cast and no force used. Plus keeps it's CD and Heals the same, but I think it's more likely to increase the time Force Bend is up (maybe even STACK it) or decrease cost / CD.

Maybe FB w/regen (not used a LOT), but even better would be STATIC BUBBLE provides REGEN too and maybe even HEALS others the same amount we get when bubbled? (Might be nice for a slow heal on the Tank)
Reference Link: Why not? http://www.swtor.com/r/FDltnT
WTB Legacy Bound Ear, Implants, Relics

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
07.30.2013 , 06:06 PM | #29
Valor Rank 100 Balance Sage chiming in here. Balance was the spec I use 99% of the time since launch, but I'm very proficient at the Seer and Telekinetics trees which also lends perspective. I like how pressing Balance issues are being mentioned and hopefully we can make some progress here. Also, I will try to use cross-faction skill names as much as I can but its a lot of extra typing. I also apologize for writing a very long post, but I wanted to get my ideas across as clearly and thoroughly as possible. I will include a TL;DR for the time-constrained:

TL;DR
I agree Balance/Madness needs force management help. To help force management issues, do at least one of the following, in descending order of personal preference
1. Disturbance on hit now returns 5% of your maximum force per periodic damage effect on target, and removes all periodic damage effects from target.
2. Force in Balance/Death Field procs cause dot ticks to return force as Psirebral suggested
3. Halve cost of Project

In regards to burst, all that needs to happen is make Force Potency guarantee a 100% chance to crit.

For Arenas, bring back instant Force Lift or we're screwed.


1. Balance Force Management
While having Death Field/Force in Balance charges restore a fixed % per dot tick would help, I would like to suggest an alternative which deals with the real underlying reason why we seem to lose force so fast in Balance/Madness in PvP, which is...

Madness is only barely force positive or neutral when performing the standard rotation (weaken mind/affliction -> FIB/DF -> SF/CT -> TT/FL until PoM/Wrath proc -> MC/CD etc. etc.) The moment you you step outside this rotation for any reason you become extremely force negative and the only way to get that force back while remaining productive is spamming TT/ FL as much as possible for max recovery, or doing the main rotation for really slow recovery, or somewhere in between for slow recovery. Or you pray that you get out of combat quickly (which will never happen).

When do we have to step out of rotation in PvP?
1. To defensively kite against enemy DPS (mostly melee). Kiting against a good player will almost always be force negative as it requires use of overlapping Sever Force/Creeping Terror for maximum control, Project/Shock while running away to maintain DPS (and Project is so dismally expensive for what you get...in PvE its worthwhile vs. normal mobs because of stun but I'm digressing), clipped or interrupted TT/FLs, and reapplication of Force Armor (which I will get to later on because I have something very important to say about Force Armor). Thankfully Force Slow is cheap, knockbacks and Force Mend are free or we'd really screwed.

2. When target dies before your rotation recycles. This means that 90+ Force you spent on casting three dots is partially wasted and/or the 24 Force you spent on TT/FL is overkill because the target died on the first tick of TT/FL and thus you don't get the full 4% force back.

3. Trying to "burst" down a target at ~3-5% with Project/Mind Crush/FIB. Some might think using these skills for this purpose is insane, but it is an absolute necessity when taking down a healer because if you don't kill that healer within 1 GCD you can be damn well sure in the second GCD he'll have healed up out of kill range. You can't rely on using TT/FL for that last 3% because it only hits for ~700 damage +/- 300 damage depending on conditions. Too variable and probably not enough damage. Experienced Sorcs/Sages encounter this situation at least once or twice a WZ.

4. Casting Force Armor on allies. This is single fastest way to go Force bankrupt, but in my opinion Force Armor is the single most powerful Sage/Sorc ability in the game. Especially for Balance/Madness. Force Armor protects ~5000HP guaranteed when cast by a full Conqueror Balance Sage and takes only 1 GCD to cast. The only move that Balance Sages have that has that same kind of productivity in 1 GCD is a crit FIB/DF (and a crit is never guaranteed now even with Force Potency/Recklessness). If you think of PvP as a damage vs. healing game Force Armor can't be beat.

I don't expect #4 to get any buffs re: force management because its purely bonus and any more would knock Balance into OP territory. But I think we can get help for #1-3. I'm not asking for buffs in all three, but at least one will help:

#1 and #3. Halve cost of Project. 45 force for 2200 kinetic (read: crap) damage with no special effects in PvP is a sad joke. Even with Upheaval (which I don't expect any proper Balance/Madness player to spend 3 points in anymore) its not a good deal. 20-22 force is reasonable given that Force Slow costs 15 Force (75% of the cost), does about 60% of the damage Project does AND also has a clutch slow effect. This will allow us to more freely use Project for mobile DPS which Balance/Madness is regularly referred to being "good" at (but lets be honest, what we really mean is in comparison to the Lightning tree which has almost 0 mobile DPS), and also for "burst" (but lets be honest 2200 kinetic damage doesn't really qualify as burst...its just that our other burst options outside of a lucky FIB/DF are just that bad). This also helps alleviate Force management issues with kiting (#1).

#2. Disturbance/Lightning Strike on hit now returns 5% of your maximum force per periodic damage effect on target, and removes all periodic damage effects from target.
(OPTIONAL) Chance of triggering Presence of Mind/Wrath increased to 40%, up from 30%.

You might ask "Why Disturbance/Lightning Strike?" Well since launch the devs have been trying to cram Disturbance/Lightning Strike down our throats for some reason. PoM/Wrath worked on Disturbance/LS since launch even though it was mathematically proven that saving your procs for MC/CD was superior. And now Disturbance procs an alacrity buff and rippling force, but its still pointless to use Disturbance in PvP 99% of the time. PvE you might make a case for it to be in your rotation now but its force negative. With this buff, we'll have a real reason to use Disturbance/LS. Devs happy!

With this, you'll get a maximum of 15% force returned (assuming you have all three dots on target, and 600 force pool, that's 90 force for a net 50 force gain). You will note however that this is not a straight buff - you lose any remaining dot ticks on the target which means you're trading the DPS of your dot ticks for immediate force gain, which is a choice I think players should make. And if you want it guaranteed and right now, you'll have to use a PoM/Wrath proc for it, which might cut into your MC/CD usage (which is why I suggest a small bump to the proc chance to compensate to make it not too punishing). Note that for maximum benefit you'll want to wait until your dots are as close to expiring as possible so that you get your "moneys worth" from your dots in terms of damage and cost. Of course the choice is yours depending on the situation.

While this effect can be used any time, this will really help the scenario when you have very recently casted a full set of dots on a target that is suddenly likely to die. Get your force back.

Balance/Madness Burst

I know I'm going to get a lot of heat for suggesting this, but only one change needed: Make Force Potency/Recklessness guarantee a 100% chance to crit, or at least increase the crit chance boost from 60% to 70% to compensate for the global crit chance nerf. Using Recklessness only to have your next Death Field NOT crit anyway is quite possibly the most pointless occurrence in the game. We all know and the devs know that FP/Recklessness was originally designed for an auto crit at max level since launch - bring it back.

I honestly feel burst in Balance is fine. Is it bad compared to many other DPS? Yes, Lightning, Smashers, Snipers, Pyros destroy our burst. But do we have enough? My answer is a tentative yes. Every 1.5 minutes we (should...but currently dont) get a guaranteed 5k internal damage AoE crit that hits around corners at 30m with no advance setup required. If you're playing rateds you coordinate with the rest of your DPS to line your Force Potency/Recklessness charges with other DPS burst phases. Don't get me wrong, I know our burst is not a game changer like Smash spec or even Engineering Snipers, but if you're grouped with said smasher(s) and snipers, your 5k FIB/DF is very very strong when added.

I very strongly doubt devs will give us more burst as they probably believe our overall DPS is in the right spot (and I'm inclined to agree - whether or not other classes need a downward adjustment is a different story though). The only way we'd get more burst is if we lose sustained DPS - but then whats the point; you might as well roll Lightning spec if you want to play a bursty class so bad.

Lastly,

Sages/Sorcs (and only Sages/Sorcs, not Shadows/Assassins) need instant cast Force Lift/Whirlwind back. It was a defining reason to even use the Balance/Madness tree since launch. We all know insta-cast was removed because of Hybrid Shadows/Assassins that had 4 instant CCs and a bunch other control, which was way too much. Not because Balance/Madness Sages/Sorcs specifically had too much CC.

Also if we step into arenas we'll probably be the first target...maybe second to a healer. Instant Lift is needed for even a chance of surviving.

Thanks for staying with me this far if you made it.
Dany - "Buy one DPS sage, get a mediocre healer free!"
Danbert - #1 Solo ranked tank queue slayer.
---
jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
07.30.2013 , 07:10 PM | #30
Some things pointed out I support

- DF gives back force (tied to DoTs)
- Free tiny heal. Just rework Dark Heal to be like Scan/Shots, I know it kinda screws up the 'unique' feel but Sorcs could defo use a tiny top up heal with no cd, Resurgence is good but does not replace this. And nobody uses Dark Heal too much anyway, it's an oh-**** button used maybe once or twice per Op and a interrupt magnet or 'stay above 30%' heal in PvP.
- Instant CC in Madness tree. No reason to take away, none at all. I dunno if Mercs lost it too but they should not have.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.