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Hardest to play, yet worst tank?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Hardest to play, yet worst tank?

Ascendant's Avatar


Ascendant
01.26.2012 , 07:49 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
What infuriates me the most is the fact that all tanks can do relatively well in our niche - VG\PT tanks have excellent overtime mitigation, and we mainly come out ahead because of our cooldowns, and I also never saw my guild's Shadow tanks complain about getting eaten alive on Nightmare raids.

A Guardian\Juggernaut, however, has a lot more issues when trying to do things not "intended" for him.
That's true I suppose. Our boss-tanking could probably use a little more differentiating from the other classes. But they have to be careful there. Having a little more annoyance with trash is one thing. But having problems with an actual boss is something else.

Take something like Foreman Crusher who goes Mike Tyson on your tank every so often, or G4-B3 who stacks insane armor debuff. If an Assassin or Powertech was significantly harder to keep alive in those types of fights, people would just bring a Jugg regardless of how much trouble the trash was.

Boss trumps trash, so they can't really make an Assassin have as much trouble with a boss as we have with a big pack of trash.

Bioware's design seems to imply that we are supposed to be an uber-reliable boss tank that can pop powerful cooldowns when things go sideways so that we can pull it out of the fire and win.

I'm not 100% sure if they are pulling that design philosophy off, since there are so few tank-centric encounters currently, but if they can make it work I'd gladly have powerful cooldowns in exchange for the ability to more easily dispatch the trash.

EDIT: By the way, love the Pinkie Pie quote in your sig.
<Proxy Jawas> OG
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

ShoteR's Avatar


ShoteR
01.26.2012 , 08:02 AM | #22
i have a bounty hunter and a lvl 50 sith juggernaut , and i can say that u can tank AND do more dps than juggs with a powertech BH , juggs are the weakest class in the game right now , u have to put alot of effort to play it right and even though u will be weaker then other classes , on pvp with my bounty hunter i usually kill juggs from up 20 lvls above me , and i don't even lose half my health doing so.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
01.26.2012 , 08:21 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
That's true I suppose. Our boss-tanking could probably use a little more differentiating from the other classes. But they have to be careful there. Having a little more annoyance with trash is one thing. But having problems with an actual boss is something else.

Take something like Foreman Crusher who goes Mike Tyson on your tank every so often, or G4-B3 who stacks insane armor debuff. If an Assassin or Powertech was significantly harder to keep alive in those types of fights, people would just bring a Jugg regardless of how much trouble the trash was.

Boss trumps trash, so they can't really make an Assassin have as much trouble with a boss as we have with a big pack of trash.

Bioware's design seems to imply that we are supposed to be an uber-reliable boss tank that can pop powerful cooldowns when things go sideways so that we can pull it out of the fire and win.

I'm not 100% sure if they are pulling that design philosophy off, since there are so few tank-centric encounters currently, but if they can make it work I'd gladly have powerful cooldowns in exchange for the ability to more easily dispatch the trash.

EDIT: By the way, love the Pinkie Pie quote in your sig.
Well, you do make a lot of sense. However, it comes down to this - do we consider Nightmare raiding the only endgame PvE content that matters?

My answer would be no. Dedicated raiders are, by far, a minority, albeit an important one. But a minority, still. If something works well in Nightmare raids, it isn't necessarily balanced for other content.

It's not like Guards\Juggs need across the board threat buffs (Defense\Immortal talents obviously need to be looked at, but that's another issue). Just something to help them with multitarget threat. No ranged extra moves? Fine. Improve what we already have. Like cost reduction\damage buff on Cyclonic Slash to make it actually worth the Focus spent, a way to solidify aggro on several groups, like a high-tier Defense\Immortal talent that makes Charge reset Sweep\Smash (so that I could Saber Throw=>smash, charge to the next group, Smash again - also opens up opportunities for creative use of Guardian Leap\Intercede and Push).

And yes, Pinkie is indeed full of awesome. /)
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Ascendant's Avatar


Ascendant
01.26.2012 , 08:28 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
And yes Pinkie is indeed full of awesome. /)
(\

For flashpoints/trash,

I think one of the things that could be improved, without really unbalancing anything, would be to increase the range a bit on our AOE slash and make it 360 degrees rather than a frontal cone.

The frontal cone thing is nice when you want to try and hold aggro on several mobs near a CC'd mob (just put it on your back and the slash won't hit it.) but it's ultimately a liability when often times mobs just don't want to stay in front of you. Also ranged DPS mobs are often spread apart far enough that Smash cannot hit them all.
<Proxy Jawas> OG
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
01.26.2012 , 08:41 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
(\

For flashpoints/trash,

I think one of the things that could be improved, without really unbalancing anything, would be to increase the range a bit on our AOE slash and make it 360 degrees rather than a frontal cone.

The frontal cone thing is nice when you want to try and hold aggro on several mobs near a CC'd mob (just put it on your back and the slash won't hit it.) but it's ultimately a liability when often times mobs just don't want to stay in front of you. Also ranged DPS mobs are often spread apart far enough that Smash cannot hit them all.
Agree about 360 degree AoE slash, but I think it's manageable as it is. However, it's Focus\Rage to damage ratio could use some beefing up. I have decent gear, and my AoE slash hits for like 600-ish noncrit for 3 Focus.

I also don't see how increasing Guard\Jugg AoE threat would be an unbalancing act. As you said, content that benefits from our cooldowns doesn't need AoE threat. And content that could benefit from AoE threat doesn't need those cooldowns.

Also, autofriended. Because /)^3^(\
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

DarthWalt's Avatar


DarthWalt
01.26.2012 , 08:48 AM | #26
Here is an idea. Go play a SW Mara then cry to me about how Juggy has too many skills and is too hard to use.


Look I am sure that BW is sorry that they didnt make a game with simple carbon copy class that have been redused to a shell of its former self like wow.

I am sorry that you have to think and read a skill before you spam it wildly at everything.



This is not WoW.

Having issues with ranged mobs heres an idea round up all your melee and take them to the what 10 yards to the ranged taunt it an **** look the hole damn group is glued to you.

Sorry again this inst WoW you dont just run in and turn stuff around as tank.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
01.26.2012 , 08:56 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthWalt View Post
Here is an idea. Go play a SW Mara then cry to me about how Juggy has too many skills and is too hard to use.
<..........>
Having issues with ranged mobs heres an idea round up all your melee and take them to the what 10 yards to the ranged taunt it an **** look the hole damn group is glued to you.

Sorry again this inst WoW you dont just run in and turn stuff around as tank.
I have a Guardian tank (currently 14\27 Vigilance) and an Annihilation Marauder, and I can say with full responsibility that overall, Guardian is harder to play.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Wickedwood's Avatar


Wickedwood
01.26.2012 , 12:19 PM | #28
the only conclusion i have come to is the people that say jugg are fine as is and just as good as the other tank classes are eather

1. want to put them selves on a hierarchy and say they are soo good and no one but them knows how to play the class well and it makes them feel better about them selves IRL trying to express this on the fourms

2.we are getting trolled hard by people that don't even play swtor or don't even play jugg
or that are just trolling for the sake of trolling.

anyone that has played and ran HM flashpoints and ops knows the jugg is basically not even a tank compared to the other tank classes.

and no matter how flawlessly godlike some of you "prodigies" are any average person using a PT or SIN tank will make even you the most godly of jugg players ever to grace the planet look like trash and a wast of time

DiLune's Avatar


DiLune
01.26.2012 , 01:30 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Wickedwood View Post
the only conclusion i have come to is the people that say jugg are fine as is and just as good as the other tank classes are eather

1. want to put them selves on a hierarchy and say they are soo good and no one but them knows how to play the class well and it makes them feel better about them selves IRL trying to express this on the fourms

2.we are getting trolled hard by people that don't even play swtor or don't even play jugg
or that are just trolling for the sake of trolling.

anyone that has played and ran HM flashpoints and ops knows the jugg is basically not even a tank compared to the other tank classes.

and no matter how flawlessly godlike some of you "prodigies" are any average person using a PT or SIN tank will make even you the most godly of jugg players ever to grace the planet look like trash and a wast of time
The "I can play it with these workarounds so it must be fine" crowd who ignore the "other tanks have fewer buttons, the same options and do more damage" arguments drive me up a wall.

Grimslaide's Avatar


Grimslaide
01.26.2012 , 02:32 PM | #30
I'm finding my issue is the lack of a ranged pull. I'm pretty good at using force push, and smash, etc....but one fix I'd like to see is a force pull.

I can hold something up and choke it.....how much more effort would it take to make it float towards me?