A week ago, I caugh on OBS what looked like a hacker. I sent the video to both Eric and Tait, Today, after sending a mail to CS, I recieved a response from Tait. So first of all, I previously said I hadn't recieved a response - this is now ammended.

Secondly and to the point, the response itself. I won't quote it verbatim, but the general gist is this: recording videos helps in proving the guilt of alleged hackers/exploiters. Videos should be sent to CS, who will direct it to their ToS group. Do not expect a report of the actions taken against the offender.

Now, my take on this - I generally approve. I know a bunch of people here will jump up and say that that's not good enough, but to me it honestly is. Let me explain:

• I don't know of a gaming company that discusses its punishment policy with their community. It's fair enough to complain about the policy (not enough deterrence, or whatever), but I wouldn't expect them to discuss their way of enforcing said policy. I'll take their word that they enforce it.
  
• I am glad to know that videos are being watched. This means that you as a player can influence the amount of hacking going on (and for the record, I think it's extremely low in PvP). Since many accusations are by nature errant, this gives a fair chance to both sides.
  
• The one thing that does bug me about this is the fact that no feedback is given as to whether the person was found guilty. Not discussing the punishment is fair enough, but I think it would both encourage players to send evidence and discourage false accusations if players were responded to about their proof. Something along the lines of "Dear Greezt, Tzeerg was indeed found guilty of breaching ToS. Naturally we cannot discuss the nature of the punishment with you, but rest assured that we will be dealing him in accordance to our policies regarding contract breaches.". Or alternatively, "Dear Greezt, after due consideration if your evidence we have found it insufficient to prove that Tzeerg has preformed any action that clashes with our ToS. We thank you for your concern.".
  

So overall, I'm satisfied.

A week ago, I caugh on OBS what looked like a hacker. I sent the video to both Eric and Tait, Today, after sending a mail to CS, I recieved a response from Tait. So first of all, I previously said I hadn't recieved a response - this is now ammended.

 

Secondly and to the point, the response itself. I won't quote it verbatim, but the general gist is this: recording videos helps in proving the guilt of alleged hackers/exploiters. Videos should be sent to CS, who will direct it to their ToS group. Do not expect a report of the actions taken against the offender.

 

Now, my take on this - I generally approve. I know a bunch of people here will jump up and say that that's not good enough, but to me it honestly is. Let me explain:

• I don't know of a gaming company that discusses its punishment policy with their community. It's fair enough to complain about the policy (not enough deterrence, or whatever), but I wouldn't expect them to discuss their way of enforcing said policy. I'll take their word that they enforce it.
  
• I am glad to know that videos are being watched. This means that you as a player can influence the amount of hacking going on (and for the record, I think it's extremely low in PvP). Since many accusations are by nature errant, this gives a fair chance to both sides.
  
• The one thing that does bug me about this is the fact that no feedback is given as to whether the person was found guilty. Not discussing the punishment is fair enough, but I think it would both encourage players to send evidence and discourage false accusations if players were responded to about their proof. Something along the lines of "Dear Greezt, Tzeerg was indeed found guilty of breaching ToS. Naturally we cannot discuss the nature of the punishment with you, but rest assured that we will be dealing him in accordance to our policies regarding contract breaches.". Or alternatively, "Dear Greezt, after due consideration if your evidence we have found it insufficient to prove that Tzeerg has preformed any action that clashes with our ToS. We thank you for your concern.".
  

 

So overall, I'm satisfied.

The problem with not itemizing punishments for breeches of rules is that it loses or lessons its deterrent value.

If people didn't know what the approximate punishments were for robbing banks, or 1st degree murder, or Sodomy in the 2nd degree there were would be less consideration of the part of the criminals as to whether or not the crime was worth the risks. If people didn't know that being convicted of 1st degree murder or capital murder could lead to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole or depending on the state in question, the death penalty, there would be more murders of that nature. Now there are many people that say that the punishments don't deter people from committing such crimes as evidenced by criminal statistics, but what they fail to acknowledge is, no matter what those numbers are they could be higher if people were less concerned about the potential punishments if caught and convicted. They have no scientific basis to make that claim because that would require disassociating the punishments in practice from the crimes in question as they presently are.

There should be clearly deliniated punishments for offences. Everyone should know what will happen if you get caught cheating for the 1st time the second time and so on and for the aggregiousness of the form the cheating takes.

That's why when people are convicted of crimes their sentences are public knowledge. Without that you lose the deterrent value.

Good job in taking a proactive response to a cheating player. We could use a dozen more like you.

In the past, other gaming companies have posted names themselves of said cheats that have been caught. Usually they post them in a batch and say these people were caught breaking the TOS and have been banned.

So, there is a precedence for a name and same policy in the gaming world. We don't need to know any actually personal details. But they could say "x" toon name was caught and has been delt with. Or they could just publish the numbers of people being caught and delt with. Blizzard recently banned 1000 people in Overwatch for hacking. Not only did they ban them forever, they also publicised the dpfact that they had caught them and we're doing something about it.

Most companies that DO still post notices about banning hackers just do so in aggregate form, i.e., 'hey guys we just banned 1000 exploiters'.

Those that initially named and shamed stopped doing so, I think, for multiple reasons - including false positives (which happened more than you'd think), and hacked accounts (where the account was eventually restored to its rightful owner). Legal liability might be an issue, but IANAL. The negatives tended to outweigh the positives.

I'd be all for giving feedback to the reporter though. I suspect (as Musco hinted in the Snave interview) that a whole bunch of people would learn that most of their reports are false - if mid-game accusations are any indication, I've been reported a bunch of times. When those false reports slowed, it might make it easier to deal with *legitimate* (yes, they do happen) complaints in a timely manner.

Or perhaps it wouldn't help at all. If you're 100% convinced you've just seen a hacker, and Bioware tells you 'sorry bud, no action taken', how many are just going to ragequit?

Maybe I should rephrase a bit. I don't expect any company to discuss the punishment of a a cheater with me. By this I mean that if I found someone I suspect is guilty of cheating and reported him, I wouldn't expect a reply telling me he's now suspended for a week.

Like I said, I would like to know whether he was found guilty.

I don't expect a proclamation such as Blizzard posted about Overwatch... I don't see the use of that. Its only reason is to prove that they are sticking to their word and banning cheaters. That's a nice sentiment, but I'm certain that some of the cheaters were aquitted in the end... I don't know if they posted account info. If they did, they'd owe an apology to the innocent, and if they didn't what was the point? Would you honestly be satisfied if BW put out a message like "we banned 500 hackers, we can't tell you who they were but take our word for it"? Seems kind of pointless...

As for knowing the punishment beforehand, that can be good and bad. Good, because it might deter players from cheating. Bad, because it might do the exact opposite. What if the punishment for a first-time offence is a week suspension? Maybe a whole bunch of players don't mind being suspended for a week. Heck, IRL many people commit crimes in countries that have the capital punishment for them. Would you argue that they were deterred?

Of course, you could argue that if the punishments aren't seen as a reason to avoid cheating, they should raise the bar. I'm not going to pretend to know which policies govern their punishments. It might be whatever, from subscription numbers to revenue (and is probably both at least). If they have to deal lesser punishments, then they are doing the best they can by not revealing them.

All that being said, I would like to know the actual punishments. I'm curious.

As for them letting me know if my allegation was confirmed, I'm pretty sure not many players would actually quit if they were told they're wrong. Maybe I'm naive, but I would like to think that the rage quitters are a vocal minority. The rest of us can take the fact that we still have stuff to learn in our stride.

I'd love to list the punishments, but its like everything else, we aren't allowed to discuss it. But let's just say that they are so lenient as to nearly encourage people to try.

Those people who are likely to think about cheating will already know how lax Bio are with punishments of this sort.

Even Eric came out in Snaves interview and said we don't ever really perma ban anyone for cheating. If I remember correctly, I think he said they lift the ban after 6-12 months.

He also said they would need to be serious repeat offenders to be banned that long.

Most punishments are a slap on the wrist. Nothing more. This game has the worst deferent of any game I've ever played.

The only deterrent is a zero tolerance policy. If you get caught using a hack or lag switch etc, then it's a perma ban for life. No warnings, no slap on the wrist. If people know this is the punishment, the curious wouldn't even try and the others would be less likely to risk it. Of course some people would. But the deterrent would keep the curious away from cheating.

So overall, I'm satisfied.

Ah but isn't it so much more fun to watch a livestream of a developer taking control of that players account, logging in, stripping the character, throwing the toon off a cliff to die, logging out and deleting that account?

That has to be far more satisfying when it ruins other players enjoyment of the game, no?

I'd love to list the punishments, but its like everything else, we aren't allowed to discuss it. But let's just say that they are so lenient as to nearly encourage people to try.

Those people who are likely to think about cheating will already know how lax Bio are with punishments of this sort.

Even Eric came out in Snaves interview and said we don't ever really perma ban anyone for cheating. If I remember correctly, I think he said they lift the ban after 6-12 months.

He also said they would need to be serious repeat offenders to be banned that long.

Most punishments are a slap on the wrist. Nothing more. This game has the worst deferent of any game I've ever played.

The only deterrent is a zero tolerance policy. If you get caught using a hack or lag switch etc, then it's a perma ban for life. No warnings, no slap on the wrist. If people know this is the punishment, the curious wouldn't even try and the others would be less likely to risk it. Of course some people would. But the deterrent would keep the curious away from cheating.

A fair complaint. I posted this so people will know how they can deal with cheating to the best of their abilities, and what they can expect from BW in return. As I said, their punishment policies might be lackluster, but that's a different debate (and one we have even less power over, I'm sure).

Ah but isn't it so much more fun to watch a livestream of a developer taking control of that players account, logging in, stripping the character, throwing the toon off a cliff to die, logging out and deleting that account?

 

That has to be far more satisfying when it ruins other players enjoyment of the game, no?

Public hangings are always much more entertaining.

I'd love to list the punishments, but its like everything else, we aren't allowed to discuss it. But let's just say that they are so lenient as to nearly encourage people to try.

Those people who are likely to think about cheating will already know how lax Bio are with punishments of this sort.

Even Eric came out in Snaves interview and said we don't ever really perma ban anyone for cheating. If I remember correctly, I think he said they lift the ban after 6-12 months.

He also said they would need to be serious repeat offenders to be banned that long.

Most punishments are a slap on the wrist. Nothing more. This game has the worst deferent of any game I've ever played.

The only deterrent is a zero tolerance policy. If you get caught using a hack or lag switch etc, then it's a perma ban for life. No warnings, no slap on the wrist. If people know this is the punishment, the curious wouldn't even try and the others would be less likely to risk it. Of course some people would. But the deterrent would keep the curious away from cheating.

The only fault I find in pointing the finger is someone may be wrongfully accused by a number of haters. It's like standing trial of a hate crime you never committed and being found innocent. You will still be looked down up forever.

If bioware actually cared they would put a priority on discovering hackers and then posting their name on forums as well as maybe a montly ingame mail update so everyone saw.

The reason they dont do anything is why we need a public hang and blame on forums.

They only other counter I can imagine is someone creating a website where video and proof was all submitted to that everyone knew and would look at.

Sadly in the end an op will get banned for being a cheater for using a perma immobilize on itself. Gg EAware.

The only fault I find in pointing the finger is someone may be wrongfully accused by a number of haters.

"He is so BAD, let's eradicate him from the game by accusing to be a cheater !"

"He is so BAD, let's eradicate him from the game by accusing to be a cheater !"

Any trolling of this sort would happen. Bioware would need safe guards in place. Then the trolls themselves would be wasting their own time.

Ah but isn't it so much more fun to watch a livestream of a developer taking control of that players account, logging in, stripping the character, throwing the toon off a cliff to die, logging out and deleting that account?

 

That has to be far more satisfying when it ruins other players enjoyment of the game, no?

If this was to happen my faith in BioWare would be restored. in my past experience I have never known them to take these complaints very serious even when proof is provided.

Most of us feel that Bioware don't read the pvp section and we also feel they don't address this issue.

So I've posted a new thread in the gen section addressed to Eric. Maybe he will see it and communicate on this topic that has festered with lots of us over the years.

"I don't know of a gaming company that discusses its punishment policy with their community. It's fair enough to complain about the policy (not enough deterrence, or whatever), but I wouldn't expect them to discuss their way of enforcing said policy. I'll take their word that they enforce it."

Not say what they're doing with hackers is pretty stupid, imagine in real life, sombody commit a crime the court judes and no one knows whats happens, the sentence or anything, its pretty lame.

To me is more an excuse to do nothing and pretend is working on that

How about, when you get caught cheating you'll get a permanent title hovering over your head that shouts cheater from time to time.

Better if they just perma ban them from the start. No warnings, no slap on the wrist bans, just permanently banned.

I have played 30 rounds of LVL 70 pub PVP at random times the last week, on the REP side.

Only 4 wins.

One of three things going on here; The IMP side has way better players, or they're "Overpowered", or there is a lot of hacking going on. Its possible combination of all three. I have seen some things that for sure look like hacks.

I normally like PVP and expect to get a good share of losses in pub, but THIS IS NOT FUN ANYMORE.

YOU STUPID HACKERS RUIN THE GAME.

I have played 30 rounds of LVL 70 pub PVP at random times the last week, on the REP side.

Only 4 wins.

One of three things going on here; The IMP side has way better players, or they're "Overpowered", or there is a lot of hacking going on. Its possible combination of all three. I have seen some things that for sure look like hacks.

I normally like PVP and expect to get a good share of losses in pub, but THIS IS NOT FUN ANYMORE.

 

YOU STUPID HACKERS RUIN THE GAME.

they might be SIth's with a LOT of Midiclorians

I have played 30 rounds of LVL 70 pub PVP at random times the last week, on the REP side.

Only 4 wins.

One of three things going on here; The IMP side has way better players, or they're "Overpowered", or there is a lot of hacking going on. Its possible combination of all three. I have seen some things that for sure look like hacks.

I normally like PVP and expect to get a good share of losses in pub, but THIS IS NOT FUN ANYMORE.

 

YOU STUPID HACKERS RUIN THE GAME.

There's little reason for faction loyalty in this game. If one side starts to win more games it generally becomes ingrained: the experienced players go to the winning side and what you have left are complete diehards (sometimes they are good, sometimes they aren't but they generally have a couple extra screws loose), newbies and bots. The social sorts and most of the pre-mades go to the winning side (except, occasionally, in ranked pvp where playing on the dead faction makes things easier for the opportunists to coordinate).

I still remember a stream from Musco where he admitted that if he's playing on a weak faction he will find some place to be low key in wzs to get through his dailies. It's a bad attitude but it's reality - there are tons of ppl like that in this game.

This is basically the main reason why games like this one need mostly x-faction wzs and arenas (and especially ranked pvp). But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

A week ago, I caugh on OBS what looked like a hacker. I sent the video to both Eric and Tait, Today, after sending a mail to CS, I recieved a response from Tait. So first of all, I previously said I hadn't recieved a response - this is now ammended.

 

Secondly and to the point, the response itself. I won't quote it verbatim, but the general gist is this: recording videos helps in proving the guilt of alleged hackers/exploiters. Videos should be sent to CS, who will direct it to their ToS group. Do not expect a report of the actions taken against the offender.

 

Now, my take on this - I generally approve. I know a bunch of people here will jump up and say that that's not good enough, but to me it honestly is. Let me explain:

• I don't know of a gaming company that discusses its punishment policy with their community. It's fair enough to complain about the policy (not enough deterrence, or whatever), but I wouldn't expect them to discuss their way of enforcing said policy. I'll take their word that they enforce it.
  
• I am glad to know that videos are being watched. This means that you as a player can influence the amount of hacking going on (and for the record, I think it's extremely low in PvP). Since many accusations are by nature errant, this gives a fair chance to both sides.
  
• The one thing that does bug me about this is the fact that no feedback is given as to whether the person was found guilty. Not discussing the punishment is fair enough, but I think it would both encourage players to send evidence and discourage false accusations if players were responded to about their proof. Something along the lines of "Dear Greezt, Tzeerg was indeed found guilty of breaching ToS. Naturally we cannot discuss the nature of the punishment with you, but rest assured that we will be dealing him in accordance to our policies regarding contract breaches.". Or alternatively, "Dear Greezt, after due consideration if your evidence we have found it insufficient to prove that Tzeerg has preformed any action that clashes with our ToS. We thank you for your concern.".
  

 

So overall, I'm satisfied.

How do we send them to CS.. if it's to reply to that canned msg, how did we even know they look at it.. I've not once had a reply from the canned msg, even when I've asked a question like "I have a recording, can I send it to you"

It would be good if you could get Tait to confirm the procedure and some assurances that those emails get read

Edit : I just realised this is a necro, lol

Companies like BW are reluctant to ban cheaters / hackers / exploiters because of the almighty dollar. These players are subs, and banning an account loses money.

This is unfortunate, as I believe subs would increase if cheaters were banned.

And not just the account, ban the IP address so they can't just create a new account and cheat some more.

Cheating should NEVER be tolerated. Ever.

I have finally given up on reporting 2 bots on Bergeron Colony server who are exploiting slicing nodes in the PVP section of Yavin 4. These 2 Sith Assasins are there 24/7/365. And they send comps to gather from halfway across the map, from stealth, and can even make themselves un-targetable for PvP, so I can't even farm them!

Not only have I reported them numerous times to CS, but I have even sent a PM to Eric with all the pertinent details, including their names.

And you know what? You can log into Bergeron Colony at any hour, of any day, and /who Yavin 4, and see the same 2 Assasins exploiting those slicing nodes! They've divided the map evenly between them, for complete coverage of the best nodes.

It sickens me to think of how many BILLIONS of credits these 2 bots have accumulated over time.