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KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.01.2014 , 12:32 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
It's a bit unhinging to hear about assassin/shadow rotation about tanking. Powertech/Vanguard tanks have rotation, shadow/assassin don't.
Um, what? Without sounding elitist, I really think you should do some more research on both powertech and assassin tanking. The powertech "rotation" is a lot more of a proc dependent priority queue than the assassin rotation is, since only Rail Shot retains a fixed cooldown.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
First and mostly - this is a class with no diminishing returns in resource so the below X force should be ignored.
No, it shouldn't be ignored. Even on classes with linear energy return, abilities still have costs. You need to make sure that you have the resources to use your high priority abilities when they come off cooldown. Waiting to regenerate resources from an empty pool may not kill your energy like it will with a powertech, but it will cause you to delay your heavy hitters, which is both a threat and a mitigation loss.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
Main agro generators:
Slow Time/Wither
Force Breach/Discharge

Secondary agro generator:
Project/Shock
No and no. Slow Time does do the most threat of those three, but Force Breach does the least by far. Force Breach does only slightly more threat than Double Strike. Project does almost as much as Slow Time, and it is used far more frequently.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
These should be used on cooldown if DPS are on the target you are attacking, especially on aoe tanking.
As mentioned, Force Breach barely tickles. It should be used on cooldown if AoE tanking, but otherwise it is only useful for refreshing the accuracy debuff.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
Priority for procs:

Particle acceleration/Energize should be used as priority before Shadow Wrap/Conspirator's Cloak since Shadow strike/Moul could proc Shadow Wrap/ Conspirator's Cloak.
Yes, Project has priority, but that is not why. Project has priority because it procs Harnessed Shadows.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
Shadow/Assassin tanks should always engage a fight with an absorb adrenal,
Absolutely not. At the start of the fight, you have all your health, the healers have all their resources and their cool downs, and the boss is generally not doing that much damage (depends a bit on the fight, but in general). You're just wasting your adrenal if you open with it.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
Force Pull should be used if possible upon tank switch, pulling a boss and/or add targets so that a taunt can be used for mechanics control.
Yes, but you're not going to be able to force a tank swap with just Force Pull. Force Pull does slightly more threat than a non-crit Slow Time. That's about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
Telekinetic Throw/Force lightning should be used on cooldown if there are 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness and if you have less than 4 stacks of shadow protection/dark protection it should be used if you're not expected to move.
Use it even if you already have 4 stacks of protection. It refreshes the buff, and that way the buff never falls off.

Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
If DPS are burning down on the above, and if tactics allow it, target should be taunted/aoe taunted prior to Telekinetic Throw/Lightning Strike

Most fights have high damage attacks - they should be reseliesed.
And the majority of damage in a fight cannot be resilienced. You need to be pretty strategic about what you resilience and what you don't, because it's worthless on a lot of attacks.
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Memo-'s Avatar


Memo-
02.01.2014 , 01:00 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Most of this is untrue. You do not need to stare or even look at your buff bar for any Shadow/Sin-specific reason and the rotation is simple. The effective rotation for Sins is literally just hitting Shock, Wither, and Discharge on cooldown and using Force Lightning at 3 HS stacks (right after your 2nd Shock). Fill in the gaps with Thrash and that's it. Dark Ward is not part of your "rotation", but you can safely use it on cooldown as well without harming your survivability significantly. Even if the player makes a big mistake with the rotation or there is a large gap of time where you cannot build stacks, you can stealth out to regain them every 2 minutes. The other tanks don't have this option and instead must rebuild their defensive buffs.

The opener for Sins is also the simplest among all the tanks as it's just their normal rotation with Force Pull at the very beginning, taunts sprinkled throughout, and Recklessness popped after the 2nd Shock.
Lots of stuff that's simply inaccurate here.

Discharge is worthless is in single-target fights and should only be used to refresh the accuracy debuff. You will be better off using Thrash to fish for Shock-procks. And of course, procced Maul is higher in priority than Thrash, and Assassinate is even higher than proc-Maul (I guess this is debatable, Assassinate costs slightly more, but deals more damage and thus threat). Shock and Wither on cooldown, and Force Lightning is self-explanatory.

And using Dark Ward on cooldown is a mitigation drop, you should always refresh it when it drops instead, for extra Dark Bulwark duration. It's not like it's hard to keep track of. :P
Maliris | Dela-jaakko | Sakkó | Sóppa | Farís | Hedelmâ | Sopraano | Hálal
Rai'chu | Eettinen Luomu | Välí | Véres | Bas'so | Seven of-Nine | Jauhé | Banthan
Haram | Weímar | Ethawn | Kuiva | Altto | Keíno | Delaráh | Luccía | Stilva | Tenorí | Baritoni
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NickAlexander's Avatar


NickAlexander
02.01.2014 , 01:15 PM | #33
I'm then just going to copy paste a few things I'm not sure why you're not aware of:

Force Breach
Instant:

Force Technique: Deals 1471 periodic kinetic damage over 18 seconds.
Combat Technique: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing 377 - 441 internal damage and decreasing the targets' melee and ranged accuracy by 5% for the next 30 seconds. Generates a high amount of threat. Puts Force Breach on cooldown for

Slow Time
Instant:


Slows the passage of time for up to 5 targets, dealing 1269 - 1811 kinetic damage, decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%, and slowing the movement speed of all targets by 30%. Does not damage sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.

As a tank you have 30% more threat from Bombardment when Using project. Project is a vital rotation component since it's your highest damage skill, especially when proced.

The pull is an addition, If you are at a distance and you need to tank swap you taunt and then pull (not sharing the same cooldown) and will give you a good amount of free threat.

Resilience should be used on attacks like force exaustion, bronthases' voley and so on. These are strong attacks.

Fight should be engaged with a stim because you don't have your kenetic/Dark bullwark stacks at all and the boss is not debuffed and hots and healer ramp-up hasn't started. You have plenty of cooldowns as a shadow/assassin to use untill it's off cooldown.


Overall - please people, figure it out for yourselves. Don't take tanking as a thing about rotations, it's about skill.
"Luke, at that speed do you think you'll be able to pull out in time?"
- Epic Fail...

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
02.01.2014 , 01:38 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by NickAlexander View Post
I'm then just going to copy paste a few things I'm not sure why you're not aware of:

Force Breach
Instant:

Force Technique: Deals 1471 periodic kinetic damage over 18 seconds.
Combat Technique: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing 377 - 441 internal damage and decreasing the targets' melee and ranged accuracy by 5% for the next 30 seconds. Generates a high amount of threat. Puts Force Breach on cooldown for

Slow Time
Instant:


Slows the passage of time for up to 5 targets, dealing 1269 - 1811 kinetic damage, decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%, and slowing the movement speed of all targets by 30%. Does not damage sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.

As a tank you have 30% more threat from Bombardment when Using project. Project is a vital rotation component since it's your highest damage skill, especially when proced.

The pull is an addition, If you are at a distance and you need to tank swap you taunt and then pull (not sharing the same cooldown) and will give you a good amount of free threat.

Resilience should be used on attacks like force exaustion, bronthases' voley and so on. These are strong attacks.

Fight should be engaged with a stim because you don't have your kenetic/Dark bullwark stacks at all and the boss is not debuffed and hots and healer ramp-up hasn't started. You have plenty of cooldowns as a shadow/assassin to use untill it's off cooldown.


Overall - please people, figure it out for yourselves. Don't take tanking as a thing about rotations, it's about skill.
High amount of threat just means the attack has a higher threat modifier then 1,0. As Slow Time/Wither deals a lot more damage then Force Breach it also deals a lot more threat (as tehy have the same threat modifier).

Also its incorrect to taunt and pull. You have to do that the other way round (pull and then taunt) as taunt is a threat Multiplier.

Fight should never (never never never....) be engaged with a stim. You continously lose Dark Bulwark stacks (always when you reapply darkward). With the healer things it's completely the other way round:
At the beginning of the fight every competent healer will have hots/shields on you, the whole raid will be at 100% health,...
Using a defensive cooldown at the beginning of a fight is the worst point a tank can possibly use a cooldown.
Zahik - NoID - The Red Eclipse

paowee's Avatar


paowee
02.01.2014 , 02:59 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Dark Ward is not part of your "rotation", but you can safely use it on cooldown as well without harming your survivability significantly.
Just a note, Dark Ward on cooldown is not optimal though
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Memo-'s Avatar


Memo-
02.01.2014 , 03:30 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Also its incorrect to taunt and pull. You have to do that the other way round (pull and then taunt) as taunt is a threat Multiplier.
I believe what he said was meant for tank swaps. There it is reasonable use taunt+pull, since you probably won't be high enough in the other targets threat table to make a difference with the pull.
Maliris | Dela-jaakko | Sakkó | Sóppa | Farís | Hedelmâ | Sopraano | Hálal
Rai'chu | Eettinen Luomu | Välí | Véres | Bas'so | Seven of-Nine | Jauhé | Banthan
Haram | Weímar | Ethawn | Kuiva | Altto | Keíno | Delaráh | Luccía | Stilva | Tenorí | Baritoni
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
02.01.2014 , 03:31 PM | #37
This is the Deception tanking hybrid with 1/2 Conspirator's Cloak http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...dGoMZfMc0zZb.3 ?
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
02.01.2014 , 04:08 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Memo- View Post
Lots of stuff that's simply inaccurate here.

Discharge is worthless is in single-target fights and should only be used to refresh the accuracy debuff. You will be better off using Thrash to fish for Shock-procks. And of course, procced Maul is higher in priority than Thrash, and Assassinate is even higher than proc-Maul (I guess this is debatable, Assassinate costs slightly more, but deals more damage and thus threat). Shock and Wither on cooldown, and Force Lightning is self-explanatory.

And using Dark Ward on cooldown is a mitigation drop, you should always refresh it when it drops instead, for extra Dark Bulwark duration. It's not like it's hard to keep track of. :P
Everything I said was completely accurate. I quoted myself below and bolded some words that some people apparently missed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
The effective rotation for Sins is literally just hitting Shock, Wither, and Discharge on cooldown and using Force Lightning at 3 HS stacks (right after your 2nd Shock).
As I stated, the effective rotation for Assassins does use Discharge on cooldown; this is not the optimal rotation. Using Thrash more often, using Maul, and using Assassinate only increases your threat (which does not matter past the opener, especially for an Assassin) and your damage (only good when you know the fight and your class well). When you are teaching new players how to play a class, you always go with the basics and never tell them about how to play optimally until they are very comfortable with the class. Risking the Accuracy debuff's loss on a 6% chance to Resist hurts the player's survivability significantly and so Discharge should be used on cooldown (with lower priority only for Shock, Wither, and Force Lightning at 3 HS stacks) for new players. Only players who have significant experience on their Assassin as a tank or have another tank applying the Accuracy debuff should even think about delaying Discharge. Remember that your two highest priorities as a tank are to hold aggro and stay alive and new players especially should focus solely on those aspects.

Going with a multi-page post on a rotation that can easily be explained in one average length sentence only makes it harder on new players. The effective rotation for Assassins in my first post is what most players should be using. Once you are very comfortable with your rotation and in fights, you can start delaying Discharge to add in more Thrashes, replace Thrash with a Maul when you have the proc, replace Thrash with an Assassinate once the enemy reaches below 30% health, and so on.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Fill in the gaps with Thrash and that's it. Dark Ward is not part of your "rotation", but you can safely use it on cooldown as well without harming your survivability significantly.
As stated, using Dark Ward on cooldown does not harm your survivability significantly. Using it as it expires is optimal, but the difference between optimal and effective play is miniscule at best. I think I figured it was about a 2% loss in mitigation in a previous post, but it's actually much less than even that. If the player is hit by a strong attack that they didn't shield because they waited a fraction of a second too long to refresh Dark Ward, he/she has hurt their survivability significantly. It means that the player has taken a bigger hit to his/her survivability in that one blow than the optimal use of Dark Ward would benefit him/herself throughout the entire fight. For anyone who is not heavily experienced in Assassin tanking, just use Dark Ward on cooldown for the best results.

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
Just a note, Dark Ward on cooldown is not optimal though
See the above comments, Board.
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Memo-'s Avatar


Memo-
02.01.2014 , 04:27 PM | #39
Point taken. :P

My personal opinion is, though, that learning a tanking skillset that is too simplified can be harmful for the player in question, as assuming a set behaviour can be an obstacle when trying to improve.
Maliris | Dela-jaakko | Sakkó | Sóppa | Farís | Hedelmâ | Sopraano | Hálal
Rai'chu | Eettinen Luomu | Välí | Véres | Bas'so | Seven of-Nine | Jauhé | Banthan
Haram | Weímar | Ethawn | Kuiva | Altto | Keíno | Delaráh | Luccía | Stilva | Tenorí | Baritoni
The Red EclipseThe Lihavuori Legacy

paowee's Avatar


paowee
02.01.2014 , 04:36 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
See the above comments, Board.
I never said it will impact your survivability significantly. I just said its not optimal.

Anyway KBN i've updated the Assassin tank page and added the Darkswell build (if anyone would like to scrutinize it) and also.. Aero regarding Dark Ward my answer is also there.

Spoiler


http://swtorboard.org/2014/02/01/swt...in-tank-guide/
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
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