So I have not played past Tython for the JC storyline and I was shocked when I finally did a playthrough with one. This is one of the best written storylines, if not the best, especially for how "realistic" it is. I wanted to give BW props, especially whoever was in charge of writing that story. I have to admit I was worried about being bored, especially because of its reputation, but I have been floored by how much better it is than other stories.

What I really appreciate is having choices that actually have a plus and minus to them instead of it being so clear cut and obvious. Throughout Chapter 1, the people you are trying to save have done terrible things and it really begs the question of whether they should be saved in each of their situations. The antagonist for the first chapter manages to do some serious damage, especially if you try to call his bluff about the number of Jedi Masters he has infected. Morrhage was an excellent villain.

In Chapter 2, it is the singular example of how complicated politics actually is - this is the best written chapter in all of the class stories regarding how things actually happen in political circles. Zenith was very well written - in order to defeat an enemy you have to learn and adapt to what that enemy does. Seeing Tai Cordan bench him was gut wrenching and yet, once again, part of the reality of politics - perception is just as important as results. I loved how, once again, nothing you do is totally good or evil. If you hold back in the negotiations with the Balmorran corporations, conceding more autonomy to profit driven institutions, then you have enabled a potential Wild West type of scenario. If you threaten the guy's family, then you threaten a man's family to get a political alliance. The stuttering bureaucrat had me fooled - that guy looked completely harmless and incompetent and managed to be a Sith Lord lolol.

I'm getting into Chapter 3, but I just wanted to tell all the JC Story haters to read a book or two and you might be able to appreciate the complexity and depth of the storyline. Sorry if you didn't see enough *****, explosions, and violence - JC is a thinking person's joy and well worth the time if you have something between your ears and like to use it.

BTW I did the playthru as a Sith spy and the sheer devastation to the Republic you can unleash is hilarious. Obviously you can't write the meta story within the limits of one class, but killing hundreds of Jedi Masters was one of those cackling moments, especially when they give you a title and trust you with vital diplomacy to keep the Republic alive. I don't see how the Jedi rebuild after the Plague, but then again, we don't really know how many Jedi there actually are.

Kudos BW!!

So I have not played past Tython for the JC storyline and I was shocked when I finally did a playthrough with one. This is one of the best written storylines, if not the best, especially for how "realistic" it is. I wanted to give BW props, especially whoever was in charge of writing that story. I have to admit I was worried about being bored, especially because of its reputation, but I have been floored by how much better it is than other stories.

 

What I really appreciate is having choices that actually have a plus and minus to them instead of it being so clear cut and obvious. Throughout Chapter 1, the people you are trying to save have done terrible things and it really begs the question of whether they should be saved in each of their situations. The antagonist for the first chapter manages to do some serious damage, especially if you try to call his bluff about the number of Jedi Masters he has infected. Morrhage was an excellent villain.

 

In Chapter 2, it is the singular example of how complicated politics actually is - this is the best written chapter in all of the class stories regarding how things actually happen in political circles. Zenith was very well written - in order to defeat an enemy you have to learn and adapt to what that enemy does. Seeing Tai Cordan bench him was gut wrenching and yet, once again, part of the reality of politics - perception is just as important as results. I loved how, once again, nothing you do is totally good or evil. If you hold back in the negotiations with the Balmorran corporations, conceding more autonomy to profit driven institutions, then you have enabled a potential Wild West type of scenario. If you threaten the guy's family, then you threaten a man's family to get a political alliance. The stuttering bureaucrat had me fooled - that guy looked completely harmless and incompetent and managed to be a Sith Lord lolol.

 

I'm getting into Chapter 3, but I just wanted to tell all the JC Story haters to read a book or two and you might be able to appreciate the complexity and depth of the storyline. Sorry if you didn't see enough *****, explosions, and violence - JC is a thinking person's joy and well worth the time if you have something between your ears and like to use it.

 

BTW I did the playthru as a Sith spy and the sheer devastation to the Republic you can unleash is hilarious. Obviously you can't write the meta story within the limits of one class, but killing hundreds of Jedi Masters was one of those cackling moments, especially when they give you a title and trust you with vital diplomacy to keep the Republic alive. I don't see how the Jedi rebuild after the Plague, but then again, we don't really know how many Jedi there actually are.

 

Kudos BW!!

Okay, first things first? If you like something? Then wonderful! Awesome! Go you!

People enjoy different things. Taste is a very, very real concept, and a difficult thing to do is to recognize when something doesn't appeal to you but might appeal to others, and to keep that in mind.

That said? Your sneering insults of those that don't like the JC story is just as shallow and simple-minded as those that sneer at the JC story for being dull. "You don't like it, therefore there's something wrong with YOU, not the story" is an ugly, ugly stance to take, and one that basically sabotages any attempt at reasonable discourse on the topic.

Speaking for myself? Act 1 of Jedi Consular is... very dull, without too much depth. There's a bit of wiggle room for more pragmatic Jedi, but it comes down to whether or not you're hugely judgemental. The story goes out of its way to make the Jedi Master's decisions way back when completely acceptable, and the villain's identity was clear to me halfway through.

The focus on healing is a bit weak too, and its hamstrung by the fact that there's no in-game consequences to taking the Light Side path, despite being plenty of ways to do it without hurting game balance.

The first companion being a stock "Proud Warrior Race Guy" didn't help much either, and neither did Nolan North's utterly wooden performance as a male Consular. It's a hard tone to pull off, but he barely seems to try.

Act 2? I completely agree, it's wonderful, a major step up. Zenith's one of my favorite companion characters in the game. It's hard and risky to do the whole "Our Freedom Fighters are really Terrorists" angle and make it work, but Zenith is a fantastic example. The political angle is really what gives the Consular story any luster at all, and Felix is a wonderful character as well, a great example of a confident, optimistic soldier.

I won't get into Act 3, because you're still working through it.

Now, if you'd like to discuss the story? Please do so, I'd like to hear what you think of my opinion of the story. But please try to keep things civil as you do so.

I have a question that I have been meaning to ask, Iv played the JC story Line about 25 times and I still can not figure out if the empire ended up with balmorra or the republic. In the Jedi Counselor story line we take the planet but during the with jugg story we kill the rebals. who won?

In short, both Imperial and Republic Balmorra happened, as did both Republic and Imperial Taris.

It's just that Imperial Balmorra happens several years before Republic Balmorra does, and Republic Taris happens several years before Imperial Taris.

It's a nifty concept, but it could have been defined a bit better, I suppose.

In short, both Imperial and Republic Balmorra happened, as did both Republic and Imperial Taris.

 

It's just that Imperial Balmorra happens several years before Republic Balmorra does, and Republic Taris happens several years before Imperial Taris.

 

It's a nifty concept, but it could have been defined a bit better, I suppose.

Each chapter lasts an entire year approximately.

Even so, given the fact the first chapter has almost twice as many planets compared to chapter two and three, I always liked to think it lasts two whole years, not just one.

Then again, that's just me.

Each chapter lasts an entire year approximately.

 

Even so, given the fact the first chapter has almost twice as many planets compared to chapter two and three, I always liked to think it lasts two whole years, not just one.

 

Then again, that's just me.

...I guess. There's a whole lot of wibbly wobbly timey wimey-ness in there. An act lasts around a year... except in some stories it feels more rushed, and in others it ambles around a bit more...

I've always felt like there's a few years of mostly-calm in between Act 1 and Act 2, and almost no break between Act 2 and 3, and things happen at varying paces and...

...look, you can argue it, but no one seems to be coming out with an 'official' timeline. Things just sorta... happen. Some things happen before others. Just roll with it as best you can, aside from the noted bits about how Taris and Balmorra work in the timeline.

I quite like the Consular story myself, though I don't think it's without flaws.

What I really appreciate is having choices that actually have a plus and minus to them instead of it being so clear cut and obvious. Throughout Chapter 1, the people you are trying to save have done terrible things and it really begs the question of whether they should be saved in each of their situations.

Honestly I kind of felt this was a weaker aspect, because the story really strongly pushes you toward the LS, and not just because it's the "Jedi" thing to do. Not only were the Masters not in control when they did the bad things, but the shielding ability is literally the only reason the Consular is sent to track down the missing Masters, killing them essentially negates your entire justification for being given the mission. At that point your just there because the plot demands it, not because it makes any sense for the Council to continue allowing you to handle it.

That is my only real complaint with the JC story over all, it's rather heavily railroaded toward pure Light Side. There are very few nuanced Dark Side choices, they mostly boil down to , "Screw you guys, I do what I want!.". Which is fine if that's how you want to play the character, but doesn't offer a lot of complexity.

Also, I still call BS on Republic Balmorra.

...I guess. There's a whole lot of wibbly wobbly timey wimey-ness in there. An act lasts around a year... except in some stories it feels more rushed, and in others it ambles around a bit more...

 

I've always felt like there's a few years of mostly-calm in between Act 1 and Act 2, and almost no break between Act 2 and 3, and things happen at varying paces and...

 

...look, you can argue it, but no one seems to be coming out with an 'official' timeline. Things just sorta... happen. Some things happen before others. Just roll with it as best you can, aside from the noted bits about how Taris and Balmorra work in the timeline.

Depends on your definition of "official" really.

Taking into account the Lost Suns and this short story by Alexander Freed, in addition to Karpyshyn's Annihilation novel, it is possible to establish an official timeline of sorts.

Still, to each his own.

As I said earlier, I'm fond of the idea the first chapter lasts two years or so.

Also, I still call BS on Republic Balmorra.

How so?

I'm getting into Chapter 3, but I just wanted to tell all the JC Story haters to read a book or two and you might be able to appreciate the complexity and depth of the storyline. Sorry if you didn't see enough *****, explosions, and violence - JC is a thinking person's joy and well worth the time if you have something between your ears and like to use it.

Different strokes for different folks, man. I also loved the Consular story line enough to play it twice, one super light side and one neutralish.

Try playing a dark side consular and you'll see where A LOT of the hate comes from. Light side consular has room for some dark side choices by means of pragmatism, but not much. Most of your DS choices aren't acknowledged by the story in any way, shape, or form. I tried a dark side consular and couldn't get past Taris, it was just ridiculous. The consular story is actually full of holes, it doesn't feel finished even when you play the intended archetype, and you kinda feel shoehorned into the role of the super benevolent Jedi who somehow remains super light side despite being a complete slave to your feelings and emotions and stopping to save every single little lost puppy on the way.

If you play the character realistically the story is wonderful, IF that's your thing. Some people like action and adventure, and the Consular story is decidedly more subtle than others. You're kind of the unsung hero working in the background, putting together the framework that the other republic characters then use to further their more overt objectives. The consular story is politics, through and through, with some action and hostile negotiations thrown in because star wars. Not everyone likes the minutiae of a fictional setting's political field, though, and that's perfectly understandable.

But it gets worse if you try to go lawful stupid with the Consular. Pick every light side choice you possibly can, avoid any and all DS points at all cost, and you get a character completely unfit for the cutthroat field of politics, especially during a huge galactic war. I felt very shoehorned into being light side by way of the dark side choices being ill-conceived and in many cases completely unfinished. Bounty Hunter and Warrior at least let me explore both options and feel like either a light side or a dark side was at least semi-viable.

Like I said, consular story is great. I was never bored, but I can see why it might feel boring to others, especially if you try to deviate from the predetermined archetype the story's writers clearly had in mind. They left little flexibility in this regard, beyond dark side choices that affect you in the short term, but the ones that should have far-reaching consequences for the consular and the republic feel completely ignored by the story. At least when my warrior held up his promise to a jedi that he wouldn't kill him after helping each other it was acknowledged by said Jedi. Pretty sure I remember my LS bounty hunter surprising a few people with her deviation from the standard Imperial archetype as well. Not so with my consular.

How so?

Balmorra is not some independent world that the Empire overreached to contest with the Republic shortly before the story. It was fully ceded to the Empire by the Treaty of Coruscant, 10+ years prior to the game.

Aside from the whole crushing of the resistance in general, it's explicitly stated at the end of the Imperial storyline that the revelation of the Republic violating the treaty leads to political unrest on Coruscant and humiliation causing them to withdraw completely from several nearby sectors.

Now jump to Republic Balmorra. Whatever wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff is going on, Republic Balmorra emphatically takes place prior to the outbreak of war (the Consular is told, some time after Balmorra, that the war has started again. So the Republic Balmorra storyline is that the Republic military and the Jedi, under the direct order of the Supreme Chancellor, flagrantly violate the Treaty of Coruscant to forcibly seize a strategically important Imperial world, execute the Sith Governor, and install a new Republic aligned government.

And absolutely nobody bats an eyelash, on either side.

Balmorra is not some independent world that the Empire overreached to contest with the Republic shortly before the story. It was fully ceded to the Empire by the Treaty of Coruscant, 10+ years prior to the game.

 

Aside from the whole crushing of the resistance in general, it's explicitly stated at the end of the Imperial storyline that the revelation of the Republic violating the treaty leads to political unrest on Coruscant and humiliation causing them to withdraw completely from several nearby sectors.

 

Now jump to Republic Balmorra. Whatever wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff is going on, Republic Balmorra emphatically takes place prior to the outbreak of war (the Consular is told, some time after Balmorra, that the war has started again. So the Republic Balmorra storyline is that the Republic military and the Jedi, under the direct order of the Supreme Chancellor, flagrantly violate the Treaty of Coruscant to forcibly seize a strategically important Imperial world, execute the Sith Governor, and install a new Republic aligned government.

 

And absolutely nobody bats an eyelash, on either side.

The way I have always looked at it is on the sith side on ballamor had already been taken and there was a resistance however the main resistance general was killed galactic politics heated up and war broke out again leading you to Balmmora I as a counselor

Now jump to Republic Balmorra. Whatever wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff is going on, Republic Balmorra emphatically takes place prior to the outbreak of war (the Consular is told, some time after Balmorra, that the war has started again. So the Republic Balmorra storyline is that the Republic military and the Jedi, under the direct order of the Supreme Chancellor, flagrantly violate the Treaty of Coruscant to forcibly seize a strategically important Imperial world, execute the Sith Governor, and install a new Republic aligned government.

A few things to keep in mind here, however.

1: At the same time Republic Balmorra is going on, so is Imperial Taris, which... is a flagrant violation of the treaty in order to outright invade a Republic world.

The Empire can't complain too much, when they go out of their way to do the exact same thing, except without a political justification like a local rebellion.

2: The treaty's in shambles at this point. Most of the Act 1 finales involved direct conflict between the Republic and the Empire (by my count, 5/8), and that plus the proxy war in Alderaan really heated things up. In short, it's just a different situation and this time... they don't get caught. They win.

Yeah, I know, it seems trivial, but the popular insurgency was still active because... it's a popular insurgency. You can't beat those through military might, just suppress and cripple them and make them as much of a non-factor as possible.

Want proof, look at the last decade or so of the real world's history...

This time, the Republic got away with it because it worked, and it had been long enough for the rabble on Coruscant to find something else to whine about.

3: ...again, it worked this time.

Its a sad fact, but in politics, the ends really do justify the means. The officials responsible for dealing with Balmorra no doubt figured that they needed to step back from the world, build up more political capital before taking another shot at it. It's just a too important world to leave alone forever, and that the rebellion hobbled on and regrew itself after the heavy hitters left meant that they could move forward.

Compare the US's involvement in Vietnam War to the US's involvement in Russia's invasion of Afghanistan. In the former, it was a boondoggle that killed a lot of US soldiers and, while not an outright loss, sure wasn't a victory. In the latter, it was supporting a gurellia army with weapons and training that helped grind the Russian army to a halt, and eventually forced them to pull out, and was not treated as harshly (although it was a lot more covert than Vietnam, after all).

Winning solves a lot of political problems, I'm sorry to say. Probably what did it here.

Balmorra is not some independent world that the Empire overreached to contest with the Republic shortly before the story. It was fully ceded to the Empire by the Treaty of Coruscant, 10+ years prior to the game.

 

Aside from the whole crushing of the resistance in general, it's explicitly stated at the end of the Imperial storyline that the revelation of the Republic violating the treaty leads to political unrest on Coruscant and humiliation causing them to withdraw completely from several nearby sectors.

 

Now jump to Republic Balmorra. Whatever wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff is going on, Republic Balmorra emphatically takes place prior to the outbreak of war (the Consular is told, some time after Balmorra, that the war has started again. So the Republic Balmorra storyline is that the Republic military and the Jedi, under the direct order of the Supreme Chancellor, flagrantly violate the Treaty of Coruscant to forcibly seize a strategically important Imperial world, execute the Sith Governor, and install a new Republic aligned government.

 

And absolutely nobody bats an eyelash, on either side.

I see you have taken a good study on Propaganda. Especially since there is no rioting that any of my well connected Pub side characters are aware of. First yes, the Republic did cede Balmorra to the empire, part of the issue a Consular has to overcome is the distrust born of that.

That said what is going on is called "real politick." The Empire moves on Taris and sows chaos, the Republic returns the favor on Balmorra. It doesn't even start of Taris though. From the very beginning of both the Smuggler and Trooper stories you have the Empire directly supporting "seperatists" through out the Republic with the intent of having planets secede. The Justicars and other underground organizations undermining Republic authority, even on the Capital world.... All well before Balmorra.

The Treaty is already a VERY thin peace of paper with border skirmishes and disavowed incursions occurring on a constant basis. Supporting insurgency. The thing is the Republic moving on Balmorra is necessitated by the Empire's actions. The Republic basically got their *** beat before the treaty was signed. As a matter of fact more than a few were surprised that the Empire agreed to it in the first place. Avoiding another *** kicking is in the Republic's best interest. So going to war is NOT in their best interest. Licking their wounds and trying to maintain the peace is, even for the pragmatist.

The real writing is on the wall though for the pragmatists to read. The Empire is fueling these "seperatists" to break up the Republic, make it smaller and thus weaker. If the Republic doesn't get the Rift Alliance on their side, which means Balmorra's gov't in exile as well, the Empire will have a cake walk when it inevitably moves on them. There is no other logical reason for all the insurgencies threatening to break the Republic apart to be directly supported by the Empire, if not to "soften it up".

Jedi don't want to fight wars... Elected politicians don't want to fight another war because they are still rebuilding from the destruction of the last one, it's hard to get reelected if you tried to justify a war on principle while people are still bleeding from what amounted to a defeat. So without the Politicians and the Jedi feeling like they are being backed into a corner by the Empire Balmorra never happens.

I haven't played past Courscant for the Consular, hope it gets better. Though my fav still is the Agent story. Great from start to finish.

Edit: Far as Balmorra and the like. Republic and the Empire have been fighting a cold war for 10 years. It's been flaring up and down so bad, may as well not even have the treaty. I mean look at Esseles and Black Talon. Pretty much fighting full fledged battles, but not by the letter of the law at war. May as well be.

As far as insults go, I was actually pretty tame. I've read many, many criticisms of the JC storyline and they just reek of the kind of people who watch Michael Bay movies.

Anyway, I am now past Belsavis and wanted to address some of the criticisms of "DS decisions" for Consular from a totally different perspective, since I'm playing as a Sith spy doing what I can to sow chaos in the Republic and help the Empire.

First, in Chapter 1 the plague puts all the Jedi Masters in very bad political positions in each of the worlds they happen in. Cin Tykan goes way off the rails and does significant damage to the Republic in his looney tunes phase. Duras Fain enfuriates the Hutt Cartel, which is dicey for the Republic. Eriz Vossan causes serious problems to multiple communities on Tatooine and raises an army. Sidonie Garen tries to agitate war on an even bigger scale than it already was on Alderaan.

Nobody, not even the Jedi, can really fault the Consular for killing every single one of them. They really screw up, despite it not being their fault.

And no, it does not shoehorn the player into full LS because you are, essentially, making excuses for Jedi who are causing a lot of trouble, saving them, and suddenly all their damage they caused is supposed to be okay? Ultimately, saving them helps the Republic more than hurts them, but it's a bitter pill to swallow having to allow

1) a murderer to go back to leading an expedition that nobody will trust him in the aftermath to lead

2) a cult leader who has pissed off the Hutt Cartel to keep his head, further pushing them to the Empire

3) someone who attacked the Jawas, local settlers, and raised an army to rejoin the pacifist Jedi

4) someone who nearly caused an enormous amount of chaos on Alderaan to serve the Jedi's interests, which is embarrassing and works against them until she proves otherwise

I killed or handed over all of them to be killed and because of how much people would expect me to, it was probably too hard of a call for even the "morally superior" Jedi to really get mad about, especially since none of them can help these Masters.

Also, this Syo Bakarn guy did not seem to really care one way or the other how I took care of the victims except for Duras Fain, who was his friend. He was the one who appeared to be in charge and seems to be the one who pushed the most for me to be named Barsen'thor, so maybe he isn't who he looks like.

As a Sith spy, killing Lord Vivicar and causing so many deaths in the Jedi was like "CHA CHING!!!" If I couldn't break my cover, at least I'd take down a whole bunch of Jedi with me. Who can really fault anyone for not wanting to give up their strength to fight something so terrible? Yes its a sacrifice, but its a sacrifice only the person with the power to do anything about it can make.

The Jedi are in no position to really judge the Consular, so I think that's why they back off with that, and name him Barsen'thor, knowing that the JC did something incredible, especially being so young.

In Chapter 2, Dark Side decisions catch up to you they aren't ignored. The Sarkhai Royal Family doesn't help me with the Baesus situation because I threatened the corporate dude on Balmorra with a personal threat to get them to fall in line and allow Jedi interference with their profits. I mean, you can cause massive destruction on a planet, Daralia, which would be solely to blame on the Jedi... how does that qualify as "non-impactful?"

It probably isn't as satisfying if you play full DS and you care about the Republic though because its a mismatched set of expectations - the Dark Side is not politically driven it's just about domination, destruction, and negative emotions. Light Side is the same way - it's spiritually and ideologically driven.

If people wanted to play any of these Republic class stories politically, you could make decisions based on what the Republic needs and not look at it from LS or DS.

For example, keeping the Jedi out of Balmorran corporate affairs is a smart decision that shows trust in a new ally, as well as pragmatism to let weapons manufacturing flourish in war time. Honestly, the Jedi need to stay out of business and war altogether unless they are a one man army, or they can trust the individuals involved not to recite the code and screw things up.

Another example is killing the president to show that Balmorra was ruled by tyrants who had no respect for their governance, as well as preventing the people from seeing a leader they counted on in a vegetable state. Is it a lie? Yes. Is it good politics? Absolutely.

Negotiate with Astor Vox, so his forces join up with Teral's. Aim for diplomacy in the peace talk so that Organa gets to do what they do best instead of trying to get the pacifist house to try to fight a war against actual warriors. You'd probably be able to get away with saving all the Masters except Duras Fain, since he is a liability with the Hutt Cartel. It's ugly, but a smart politico knows when to throw someone under the bus and Duras Fain reaaaaally screwed up.

Folks keep saying that the Consular storyline simply has less explosions and caters to a more intellectual audience, but I've never found that to be true.

if anything, the Consular arc is bizarrely simple. It centers around a mystery of who is infecting a bunch of Jedi. You learn that all the Jedi are connected to one another because they all once went on a mission and left one of their own behind to certain but unseen doom. Now someone is trying to hurt them. You don't have to be Sherlock to figure this one out :-) Yet the Jedi and the Consular are completely clueless.

On the plus side, yes, Chapter 2 and 3 are better as they get the Consular into politics, but unfortunately Chapter 1 is the bulk of the leveling experience.

As far as insults go, I was actually pretty tame. I've read many, many criticisms of the JC storyline and they just reek of the kind of people who watch Michael Bay movies.

lol okay, dude.

Nobody, not even the Jedi, can really fault the Consular for killing every single one of them. They really screw up, despite it not being their fault.

No, they can't. But unless it's been fixed if you kill all the masters, at the end of Act 1 Syo tells you all the masters you saved (because apparently you DIDN'T kill them?) died when the plaguemaster died. If you kill Yuon, later down the road there's a goof where the consular mentions Yuon is alive and well. Dark side is buggy as ****.

In chapter 1 they can't fault the dark side consular because your actions can easily be chalked up to pragmatism. Shielding deranged criminals--Jedi no less--who are wildly dangerous to every living thing on their respective planets at the expense of your own physical health and well being is more than even the Jedi are willing to ask, especially when it will probably kill you in the process. I think anyone can agree killing them might be unavoidable. Tragic, but unavoidable.

And no, it does not shoehorn the player into full LS because you are, essentially, making excuses for Jedi who are causing a lot of trouble, saving them, and suddenly all their damage they caused is supposed to be okay?

The complete lack of polish on the dark side options and gaping continuity errors do shoehorn you into some kind of light side archetype. I managed a convincing grey jedi with the Consular storyline as well. There is a lot of wiggle room for a believable character that is basically good, I felt there wasn't really any room for a realistic and believable consular slipping down the slope into the dark side.

I chose to save the masters because 1.) They're Jedi masters, they have a lot of knowledge and wisdom to give still and, more importantly, 2.) they might be able to provide intel on the plaguemaster. Maybe not immediately, but it could come back to them. And 3.) To face justice for their crimes. Oh, sure, they were getting mindscrewed but they weren't so far gone that they were unaware that they were breaking Republic laws, and my consular made them put on their big boy pants and own up to it.

And yet if I had killed them it would have been perfectly reasonable as well. It's not like we're executing common criminals here, we're executing extremely dangerous people who, without sacrificing a huge chunk of your own life force at enormous cost to yourself, will continue to be extremely dangerous until you find the plaguemaster--IF you even can. Act 1 isn't the problem. A little dark side here and there in the name of pragmatism isn't the problem.

The problem is in Act 2 and beyond "Chaotic Stupid" ceases to make sense and serves as nothing more than player amusement, because it certainly doesn't serve the story. It quickly gets to a point where your efforts are actually a hindrance and you would 110% absolutely most certainly be replaced by somebody competent.

In Chapter 2, Dark Side decisions catch up to you they aren't ignored. The Sarkhai Royal Family doesn't help me with the Baesus situation because I threatened the corporate dude on Balmorra with a personal threat to get them to fall in line and allow Jedi interference with their profits. I mean, you can cause massive destruction on a planet, Daralia, which would be solely to blame on the Jedi... how does that qualify as "non-impactful?"

Some of the dark side choices are impactful, and equally as many if not more so have absolutely no consequences. It just isn't believable. It doesn't just strain credulity, it shreds it to pieces. Dark side consular might work if you RP your character as a Sith infiltrator or something, that would work and in fact it's interesting and I might try it on another playthrough. But if you take the story at face value--you're a Jedi, a citizen of the Republic--the dark side consular story just isn't very cohesive and I definitely felt shoehorned into being some kind of good guy if I wanted a good story.

As for the rest of your post, re pragmatism, all agreement here. I love playing pragmatic characters and it makes the stories more organic and realistic. Even my light side JC was only light 3 or so if memory serves, by the time I finished the class story. By contrast, trying to play a dark jedi consular while taking the story at face value--that the character was a Republic citizen and a Jedi padawan from the beginning--turned out immersion-destroyingly terrible. Having to write up a background other than what the story very vaguely assumes you are doesn't make the story good, it means the story isn't fleshed out enough to stand on its own two feet to begin with. That's a problem. That's bad writing.

Consular story is great, I personally found it fun and there was enough action for me even LS, but the Dark side story felt unrefined. RPing a Sith infiltrator to make it work doesn't make the original DS path better in and of itself, though. The dark side story is weak, and as you progress if you're a little too zealously dark side there comes that point where you realize and are fully aware the Jedi would have at the very least reassigned you to something you can't screw up.

No, they can't. But unless it's been fixed if you kill all the masters, at the end of Act 1 Syo tells you all the masters you saved (because apparently you DIDN'T kill them?) died when the plaguemaster died. If you kill Yuon, later down the road there's a goof where the consular mentions Yuon is alive and well. Dark side is buggy as ****.

Didn't know that, but it does make it that much worse.

In chapter 1 they can't fault the dark side consular because your actions can easily be chalked up to pragmatism. Shielding deranged criminals--Jedi no less--who are wildly dangerous to every living thing on their respective planets at the expense of your own physical health and well being is more than even the Jedi are willing to ask, especially when it will probably kill you in the process. I think anyone can agree killing them might be unavoidable. Tragic, but unavoidable.

The issue I have with this is simply that the Consular is a brand new Jedi, no particular experience in the wider galaxy, no real connection to any of the sick masters (aside from Yuon, but given that 1. You really don't actually have a lot of 'bonding' with her on Tython, and 2. She falls sick immediately and other than brief chat after you shield her is removed from the story for pretty much the rest of the chapter, that's not really much of a connection). Literally the only qualification the Consular has, the only reason they would even be considered for the mission, is because they are the only one who can use the shielding technique. If the Council just wants the Masters dead or contained before they cause too much trouble, there are probably a few thousand more qualified and experienced Jedi out there to handle it.

Consular story is great, I personally found it fun and there was enough action for me even LS, but the Dark side story felt unrefined. RPing a Sith infiltrator to make it work doesn't make the original DS path better in and of itself, though. The dark side story is weak, and as you progress if you're a little too zealously dark side there comes that point where you realize and are fully aware the Jedi would have at the very least reassigned you to something you can't screw up.

Like I said, I like the Consular story a lot, it's just pretty much this, that if you really want it to play out in a coherent/reasonable manner, you do pretty much have to play it a certain way. There a few good 'pragmatic' dark side options sprinkled throughout, but they're far outnumbered by the "I just do whatever the **** I want and the Council is too stupid to stop me." choices.

My only other real complaint would probably be some of the dialogue. 'Wise and diplomatic' and 'insufferable prat' are two different things. Some of the lines I just imagine Yoda cringing and going 'Get a grip, you must."

There is no accounting for tastes. The Consular’s is my story, I adore-love-adore Balmorra’s chapter of it, and the bit on Rishi is beautiful. Honestly, I am thinking of levelling another Consular just to play Balmorra again! Too bad I have two more class stories to get through.

In Consular’s story, I was actually surprised by who the final ‘hidden’ antagonist was, since reared on the Bio games, I thought that it were the Protagonist herself.

Ha-ha! A rare moment of: “Bio got me!”

If the Council just wants the Masters dead or contained before they cause too much trouble, there are probably a few thousand more qualified and experienced Jedi out there to handle it.

Yeah, it did feel weird sending a shiny new Jedi out on a mission like this, but it is because the JC is the only one who can do it. I feel like the council should have sent along some backup in case things got ugly.

In Consular’s story, I was actually surprised by who the final ‘hidden’ antagonist was, since reared on the Bio games, I thought that it were the Protagonist herself.

I spoiled it for myself on Youtube and knew who the big bad was pretty early on because of it lol. Even still, I really enjoyed the light side ending, but felt it needs a little more emotion in the dialogue department. Still very satisfying, though.

Eldefall,

I have to agree that many of the DS decisions in Chapter 2 are pretty bad for pragmatism's sake, but there are exceptions.

First, making a deal with Captain Valon is an excellent pragmatic decision that saves the Republic resources for a court proceeding, utilizes part of the White Maw as an asset, and swings the White Maw situation a little bit against the Empire.

Second, killing the mind shattered president of Balmorra is absolutely the right decision if you want to make Tai Cordan's succession seamless. If the president lives and starts to come around, then Tai Cordan's governance is in question and creates a power vacuum. That's bad. If the president dies, then nobody can really oppose Tai Cordan and he rules without having any guilt on his conscience - the Imperials "killed" him after all.

But passing up an opportunity to turn a Sith against Lachris, capturing multiple Imperials for questioning, taking on more difficult tasks to protect your allies, not antagonizing Balmorrans, and other LS decisions in that chapter are much more effective than not.

Something dawned on me about why DS Jedi storylines tend to be off - the Republic storylines in general do not really have the moral spectrum that you see in the Imperial storyline, and I think it's because of a rose-tinted glasses writing job on the Republic.

If I were in charge, I'd take the "grey" approach with the Republic - for example, the Republic appears to be nonchalant about corporate affairs, with how Leksende mentions Czerka's influence on the Senate, the Corporate Sector on Corellia, and putting 2 and 2 together about where the Republic military is getting all their toys from. Corporations and national interests are usually at odds - for example why would an American corporation pass up doing business with Russia if their product is in high demand from them, irrespective of the conflict between the nations?

In Star Wars, why would Czerka / CEC / Sund Tech / whoever be okay with the Jedi preaching the Jedi Code and cutting into their profits? How far would shareholders and directors of these corporations go to keep the Jedi from interfering too much with their business?

Another thing is how Alderaan, Coruscant, etc. are supposedly influential, but you dont' really see the cost of that influence. Taris used to and can be in this vaccuum of humans have priority, but what if that applied to the Republic as a whole? Maybe Alderaan's nobility and monarchy has more influence in the allegedly "representative" government, and thus non-humans are not given the same political support as humans.

Maybe these "alliances" with Republic allies amounts more to colonialism than diplomacy, possibly exacerbated by the aforementioned corporations. Senate and, say, Rift Alliance make an agreement, but the Republic corporations swarm in, consume most of their economy, and now the locals either work for ridiculously low wages or starve.

The point of all that is that it's hard to make a dark, cohesive, and intruiging storyline for the Republic if there isn't really much dark intrigue going on. If the Republic is just naive and always good intended, then where CAN a DS Republic class get into the kind of moral situations that an Imperial class does?

Eldefall,

 

The point of all that is that it's hard to make a dark, cohesive, and intruiging storyline for the Republic if there isn't really much dark intrigue going on. If the Republic is just naive and always good intended, then where CAN a DS Republic class get into the kind of moral situations that an Imperial class does?

They wasted great opportunities with both jedi stories.

At the end of consular act 1, if you spare Vivicar, he warns you about possible betreyal coming from jedi counsil. "They will use you and then throw you away, like they did with me". This conversation never comes up again.

As for knight, as was unpleasently surprised by how easily you return to the order. "Hey guys, i just served Sith Emperor, but i'm good again!" They could have made you redeem yourself, or go clashing with counsil and loosing faith in code. But nope, we will keep using "epic hero" mode.

I can relate to author. I really was surprised with the story after myriad of posts that the story is awful. Guess, author's aggressive reaction wasn't due to intolerance of other opinions but to much HATE the story recieved from members, which he deemed unfair. Not saying he's right, of course.

I don't know what people compares the story to, probably, Jedi Knight, but maybe that's the source of misunderstanding. You don't compare the stories, they are different. However, one may dislike some of the stories, which doesn't mean they are bad. Honestly, I've enjoyed JK story very much, but when I judge rationally( scaling pros and cons of the STORY itself and not it's TYPE ) I can say that the story wasn't without flaws.

So, the consular story fits consular very well. It's what it should be for this type of Jedi-character( can't find examples from the movies, but it's certainly NO Anakin, Luke or Obi Wan type of character ), the one who abides Jedi code and traditions, the one who is into force studies and diplomacy. It's not perfect, there are many flaws, of course, but as in any other stories( I know what I've said about comparison but this is different ).

That being said, I don't play ''unorthodox'' alignment type. For me all of them are absent of a lot of logic and contradict canon pretty much. So, if you say that Dark Jedi Consular is awful I won't argue with u on that( for me light Sith are not much better ).