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Can we talk about 258 gear?


Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
Today , 02:03 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by FiLaBugh View Post
What.....?
You heard me.

You think a player can simply buy their way to the gear when in reality the only gear that can be traded between players is crafted gear and the crafted gear is absurdly difficult and expensive in resources (and hence time) to craft.. which means there will be little or none of it for sale between players.

Even MM OPs players are much more likely to grind for it through missions, FPs, and OPs which will reward MWS for use on the vendors more so then drop any actual gear or materials. Of course they will craft some as materials drop, but in all likelihood... only for guild member consumption.

Hence you entire premise lacks any actual analysis of what it means to craft this gear (which is the only gear players can trade/sell), so you drew wrong conclusions.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
Today , 03:50 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by kukumburr View Post
Still the same. They're not on there. They said on the livestream today there will be a post talking about gear some time in the next couple weeks so maybe we'll learn something then.
Hopefully it wonít be too late for them to change things if there is big push back on some of the info.

FiLaBugh's Avatar


FiLaBugh
Today , 04:13 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
You heard me.

You think a player can simply buy their way to the gear when in reality the only gear that can be traded between players is crafted gear and the crafted gear is absurdly difficult and expensive in resources (and hence time) to craft.. which means there will be little or none of it for sale between players.

Even MM OPs players are much more likely to grind for it through missions, FPs, and OPs which will reward MWS for use on the vendors more so then drop any actual gear or materials. Of course they will craft some as materials drop, but in all likelihood... only for guild member consumption.

Hence you entire premise lacks any actual analysis of what it means to craft this gear (which is the only gear players can trade/sell), so you drew wrong conclusions.
So what you are saying is that the grind to craft gear is so high thats will be impossible to sell it?and its easyer to do the huge grind that would be doing the weekly mission for MWS, intsead of doing MM Gods?

Genuine questions.

Also, in your opinion why in first place would BW do another grind for gear when they could just tune the operation in MM for the current gear?

And why for the first time in the game they are making BiS craftable able to be sold???You say its crazy expensive to craft the gear and thats true, but you are assuming the ability people to craft that. I know people who had or still have 40B credits or people that have 2000 ranked mats.

This is Genuine question, im not attacking you in any way.

Look, before, you couldnt get top gear from the Gtn, you had to do the content in the game to have it or you could buy Nim runs from people and they would gear you up, and thats ok because its been selled between players, it was or is something that the community itself does by themselves without the BW interference.

Now BW will give you the ability to get the gear directly from their in game market, and the easyest, fastest way to get in game currency its to convert stuff you can buy in their in game Cash Shop or ofc buy currency in "shady" websites. Doesnt matter if its expensive or how hard it is to sell that crafted gear, thats irrelevant.

Theres only 2 types of players that need that gear, the master mode Gods players and ofc the Pvp players that no matter what pvp they do they want and need the gear for obvious reasons xD. BW created a problem with this gearing system they have now.

Anyway no matter what, BiS gear in any game should only be obtainable by playing the Game Modes that reward you the best gear, no matter what game modes they are, can be FPs, operations, pvp, gsf whatever. Never be able to be bought from their in game market, and its irrelevant you saying its to hard or to expensive to do so.

Gearing in an MMORPG its the first porpuse of the game thats why should never be tight to currency, no matter its game currency or real currency, because in game currency as long you can convert it to real currency its just currency, and you can convert swtor credits into real money or money into swtor credits.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
Today , 04:34 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by FiLaBugh View Post
So what you are saying is that the grind to craft gear is so high thats will be impossible to sell it?and its easyer to do the huge grind that would be doing the weekly mission for MWS, intsead of doing MM Gods?

Genuine questions.

Also, in your opinion why in first place would BW do another grind for gear when they could just tune the operation in MM for the current gear?

And why for the first time in the game they are making BiS craftable able to be sold???You say its crazy expensive to craft the gear and thats true, but you are assuming the ability people to craft that. I know people who had or still have 40B credits or people that have 2000 ranked mats.

This is Genuine question, im not attacking you in any way.

Look, before, you couldnt get top gear from the Gtn, you had to do the content in the game to have it or you could buy Nim runs from people and they would gear you up, and thats ok because its been selled between players, it was or is something that the community itself does by themselves without the BW interference.

Now BW will give you the ability to get the gear directly from their in game market, and the easyest, fastest way to get in game currency its to convert stuff you can buy in their in game Cash Shop or ofc buy currency in "shady" websites. Doesnt matter if its expensive or how hard it is to sell that crafted gear, thats irrelevant.

Theres only 2 types of players that need that gear, the master mode Gods players and ofc the Pvp players that no matter what pvp they do they want and need the gear for obvious reasons xD. BW created a problem with this gearing system they have now.

Anyway no matter what, BiS gear in any game should only be obtainable by playing the Game Modes that reward you the best gear, no matter what game modes they are, can be FPs, operations, pvp, gsf whatever. Never be able to be bought from their in game market, and its irrelevant you saying its to hard or to expensive to do so.

Gearing in an MMORPG its the first porpuse of the game thats why should never be tight to currency, no matter its game currency or real currency, because in game currency as long you can convert it to real currency its just currency, and you can convert swtor credits into real money or money into swtor credits.
You are inserting your personal belief that BIS should only be obtainable via game modes. The game, as advertised, is dynamic, which means that any rules previously followed by different dev regimes can be tossed out the window at any time if the current dev team has a different opinion or view of their perfect swtor world. We have already seen that with class balance, conquest, GC, and various other aspects of the game. If you cant adapt, or are unwilling, then dynamic games probably arent the best genre for you. It seems as though it leads to more disgruntlement than enjoyment.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
Today , 04:42 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
I am intrigued by the gear-sync idea you mentioned earlier in your post, but this excerpt still drew my attention.

I have never understood this mentality that BW is forcing anything on anyone playing this game. By the logic presented above, BW is also forcing everyone to use class skills optimally to maximize DPS. And im sure that statement sounds silly and obvious to many, but it parallels the argument you are trying to make. In order to get specific rewards, we need to do specific content. Or you dont need to do anything at all that you dont want to - at the cost of not getting what you want. I dont want to learn my class DPS rotation, but I want to clear NIM content. BW is forcing me to do something i dont want to do to get what i want.

Hogwash. Its all hogwash.
Wall of txt incoming. Not feed back for the Devs, so Eric, disregard,

I believe he means before 5.0 you could play what ever part of the game you wanted and there was a gear path for it.
Ie, pvp gear for pvp and pve progression gear for raiders.
It wasnít until Bioware removed the distinction that players were forced (if they wanted to stay competitively geared in pvp) to play content they may not want to,
ie, it was/is faster to gear from 230-242 doing Ops than playing pvp.
ie it is faster to gear from 244-248 doing pvp than playing Ops.
Basically Bioware have made it so you have to play parts of the game you may not want to so that you can keep up with people who do play those parts.

Yes, no one is holding a gun to their head to play parts of the game they donít like, but it means they are at a distinct disadvantage to other players who do. This wasnít how it was before 5.0. If all you did was play pvp you could gear up doing so and never be at a disadvantage against people who played all parts of the game. It was the same for Ops players. They didnít need to play pvp to gear up faster to complete progression raids,

I blatantly refuse to do ops and because of that Iíve had a hard grind to get my Alts up in only pvp. Iíve also been exceptionally unlucky with RNG boxes and have had to nearly buy everything with UCs. So my grind has to gear has put me at a disadvantage for most of 5.x. Luckily for me Iím a decent pvper and is was able to close some of the gap against more average, but higher geared players. But when ever Iíve come up against same skilled players and they have better gear, I will always lose to them, which isnít fun and is extremely frustrating.

When you start using a stick approach to make people play parts of the game they donít like, they resent you and some will leave the game. Which is what happed after 5.0 and the months that followed when a huge amount of pvpers left. Within 2 months my whole guild had left because of the gear grind. There are only 2 of us left out of 32 players. Some have come back for a week or two and then leave when they find the grind is still there (even if itís not as bad as 5.0, itís still to much for most pure pvpers who left over the 5.0 grind).

This new grind will have a similar effect. Some more pvpers will leave because it too much for them, which is not good for the health or the state of the game. It certainly wonít encourage those who left to come back.
Bioware seem to want to push all the remaining players into playing all parts of the game so that they donít have to make as much content for just specific play types. If they can get non pvpers playing pvp, they effectively added more (or there is more) content for those people to play. The same goes with getting pvpers to play ops or flash points or grind heroics.

While that might work for pve people, Bioware just donít understand pvpers. Pvpers never really needed that much new content to keep playing. We had a fairly healthy pvp population right up to 5.0.
Pvp had a content drought for most of this games life, but we all kept playing because content variety for us was changing Alts, min maxing Gear (experimenting) and each match was mostly different (not scripted). All pvpers have ever asked for in the game is class balance, fast gearing to play skill vs skill pvp and no bugs/desync. If we have all of those things we are mostly happy with the maps/content we had/have. This is was something Bioware seemed to start understanding for 3.x and 4.x and then blatantly forgot with 5.0 when they removed all 3 things pvpers needed to stay engaged.

They removed the gearing system (which was perfect for pure pvpers). That included a Mods/enhancement vendor to min-max so we could test different gear builds
They effectively removed the use of Alts because the gear grind to gear them was/is so atrocious.
They made 3 classes super OP for 12-18 months and made 2-3 classes trash for since 5.0 was released (destroyed any class balance or rotated the OP situation around).
On top of that, the 5.0 gearing system had another detrimental effect on pvp because it effectively killed off the lowbies and Mids brackets.

The 5.x gearing system has been the most detrimental to the pvp community. We have felt it worse than any other players and will continue to do so with 5.10. Not just the time it takes to grind, but the fact that it destroyed lowbies and Mids along the way, which actually took a large chunk of content away from us. If you arenít a dedicated pvper, you will never understand and there is nothing any of us can say to convince you otherwise.

The real winners from the 5.x gearing are the casual players who donít even need the best gear to play pve story lvl content or heroics. The losers have been the dedicated pvpers and the progression raiders, but at least the raiders are getting a change to fix it for them, pvpers arent. (We need a seperate gearing system that also encourages lvling in lowbies/Mids and playing Alts).

Even with this Bolster announcemt of 252 (better than 248), the gear grind to 258 will still be too much to bare for some pvpers whoíve given Bioware the benefit of sticking around since 5.x. This will be the last straw for them and we will lose some really good players again and the pool of those is diminishing fast. Which isnít good for pvp or the game as a whole.

Letís hope that Bioware are listening to more of the feedback the same as they did for bolster. Maybe there is some hope they will change somethings to do with 5.10 gearing.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
Today , 05:17 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by FiLaBugh View Post
Anyway no matter what, BiS gear in any game should only be obtainable by playing the Game Modes that reward you the best gear, no matter what game modes they are, can be FPs, operations, pvp, gsf whatever. Never be able to be bought from their in game market, and its irrelevant you saying its to hard or to expensive to do so.
As of this PTS build, this is what we know about the BiS gearing. (Anyone, if Iíve got these top facts wrong, please correct me)

* Specific Mats to craft 258 gear will come from MM op
* Schematics to craft whole gear pieces are available from a vendor (but not mods, enhancement, armor, hilts or barrels)
* Reverse Engineering the internalss of 258 gear will give you a 60% chance to get a schematic to craft them
* Reverse Engineered ďinternal armor piecesĒ will not be BiS because they wonít have gear Bonuses
* To craft any 258 items it will be expensive in credits and mats
* You can buy BiS 258 gear from a vendor using MWS that are collected by excessively grinding content and pvp.
* 258 weapons will not be available from the vendor. They will only be available as a drop in MM op and crafted.
* Enhancements taken out of gear are now locked to that gear type (ie legs for legs). Transferring by legacy is pointless.

What does that means for casual players and dedicated pvpers alike.
* Months to grind MWS (only) using one Alt
* People with more Alts will have less time, but they will be required to still only gear one Alt as they transfer items in legacy gear.
* Anyone wanting to Min-Max as pvpers do will be required to buy crafted enhancements from MM players
* Anyone wanting 258 weapons will require buying them from MM players
* MM Players and Crafters will be listing mats and armor at ridiculously high prices because no one outside of MM will have access to the mats. The crafted items will cost so much to make in the first place that they will be high priced just to cover costs, thatís before even adding a mark up for profit.
* Any MM players who also play pvp (and there are more than people realise) are usually very good players or they wouldnít be up to MM ops. These players will dominate the pvp landscape because of gear and skill. Any equally skilled players with out 258 BiS will lose constantly (causing resentment, rage, frustration and ultimately leave the game).

What does this mean for MM players.
* They will get super, ridiculously rich.
* They will be BiS geared before anyone even has a chance to be half geared
* If they play pvp, they will dominate it for months as gear gods.

What does this mean for the game
* People, especially pvpers who will need BiS gear as much as the MM players (to compete) will take as many shortcuts to getting the gear. If they have a massive amount of credits they will just pay what ever the MM crafters ask for.
* If people donít have the credits they will look for other ways to get them fast. That will include buying gear from the CM and trying to sell it on the GTN to obtain the credits (not always guaranteed to pay off as much as intended). Or they will use less reasonable methods and just buy credits direct from unscrupulous 3rd party spammers (which is more of a guarantee of real money spent)
* People not willing to pay real money or donít have a stock pile of credit or UCs will be stuck on the grind wheel and will get burn out or give up and leave the game.
* None of that is healthy for the game

I know there are people who disagree with some of my conclusions. But you canít argue with the facts at the beginning of this post. They are what they are on the PTS at the moment and canít be disputed.
As it stands at the moment, this gearing change will negatively affect the game. How much it will affect it, we wonít know till it happens. The question is, how much more can the game take till all of the things negatively affecting it finally drive the game to close? And why canít Bioware see whatís happening? When they look at their stats are they looking at total numbers or are they focused on percentages?