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Defense / Immortal changes to adjust for massive nerf to dps in 5.5????

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Defense / Immortal changes to adjust for massive nerf to dps in 5.5????

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
09.22.2017 , 07:06 AM | #1
Juggernaut and Guardian dps at the minute are NOT viable for ranked pvp at all. The only option left was a Defense discipline.

DPS adjustments changes changed barely anything for PvErs but have, probably not on purpose, severely crippled dps output of the only viable Guardian ranked discipline.

Why is this not accounted for? Guardians already have it hard to compete with Powertech's aoe and yet Powertech remains unnaffected.

Please do some adjustments or wait with Guardian dps changes until another patch as the changes are almost meaningless to DPS specs and extremely harmful to tanks. it will also make the WHOLE class the worst choice for ranked pvp - Jug tank's dps performance will be severely crippled and there will be no reason to take it over a Powertech or Assassin. DPS spec is useless as it is.

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
09.22.2017 , 08:15 AM | #2
Agreed, the aoe nerf will put jugg's aoe on par to sin, while single target and anti tanktunnel capabilities are still worse. Jugg was in the middle by single target, aoe and survivability, why making it worse?
Don't even say about regs pls.
Nightrain Juggernaut

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
09.22.2017 , 08:21 AM | #3
I don't think this hit Jugg tanks as hard as you seem to think. Sure we'll do some less damage, but we never needed Ultra Chilling Scream to be competitive. We still have a solid arsenal of defensive cooldowns as well as other defensive tools like Intercede and Intimidating Roar (as well as a debuff on that which kinda mimics oil slick). And we still have Crushing Blow, being the hardest hitting AoE ability when it comes to tanks. While I'm not necessarily against changes to defense to make up for, I don't it's very urgent at all, we're in a good place and I don't see this change affecting that too much.

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
09.22.2017 , 08:28 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I don't think this hit Jugg tanks as hard as you seem to think. Sure we'll do some less damage, but we never needed Ultra Chilling Scream to be competitive. We still have a solid arsenal of defensive cooldowns as well as other defensive tools like Intercede and Intimidating Roar (as well as a debuff on that which kinda mimics oil slick). And we still have Crushing Blow, being the hardest hitting AoE ability when it comes to tanks. While I'm not necessarily against changes to defense to make up for, I don't it's very urgent at all, we're in a good place and I don't see this change affecting that too much.
Wer'e not in a good place, Juggernaut will become the worst tanking class while currently they are all relatively balanced.

PT = massive aoe and mobility
Sin = Great single target and anti tunneling
Jug = good aoe, good single target burst - something inbetween.

With the change Jug becomes the worst with its damage output.

DerSchneider's Avatar


DerSchneider
09.22.2017 , 08:47 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I don't think this hit Jugg tanks as hard as you seem to think. Sure we'll do some less damage, but we never needed Ultra Chilling Scream to be competitive. We still have a solid arsenal of defensive cooldowns as well as other defensive tools like Intercede and Intimidating Roar (as well as a debuff on that which kinda mimics oil slick). And we still have Crushing Blow, being the hardest hitting AoE ability when it comes to tanks. While I'm not necessarily against changes to defense to make up for, I don't it's very urgent at all, we're in a good place and I don't see this change affecting that too much.
One little thing - the hardest hitting AoE is firestorm. Crushing can hit more in theory, but it needs 5 stacks and double relic proc.
Nightrain Juggernaut

PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
09.22.2017 , 01:14 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
Wer'e not in a good place, Juggernaut will become the worst tanking class while currently they are all relatively balanced.

PT = massive aoe and mobility
Sin = Great single target and anti tunneling
Jug = good aoe, good single target burst - something inbetween.

With the change Jug becomes the worst with its damage output.
I think we all forgot the first rule about tanking, you are not meant to do damage lol. Tanks are meant to defend, stall, take hits, and protect. Guarding your teams healer, intercede them for damage reduction, give them a damage shield on your AoE taunt, CC focusing enemies, stun enemies in their main burst etc etc. The idea of skank tanking was never meant to be, even the devs mentioned that it was not their intention to have tanks in dps gear. Juggs are in a good place, and many just don't realize it, but the utility you own (Listed above) is better than with the other tanks have anyway.
Sin give a player 5% dmg reduction for 6 seconds on AoE taunt, and aside from stuns that you have too, there's no intercede, there's no damage shield.
Pt even worse, stuns as always, oil slick can help allies because the enemies are debuffed with the accuracy reduction, and their AoE taunt only reflects 1 hit, makes that completely useless against attacks such as penetrating blasts.
No need to start complaining you lost damage from a dot, when giving tanks a dot is literally the most unheard of thing any game can do. Sins and PTs don't own dots, and most tanks from other games don't either, because of instant threat generation. This nerf was warranted and chilling scream was just meant to be a controlling skill in the first place, not something that hits harder than ravage like it does now.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
09.22.2017 , 01:59 PM | #7
Juggs will still have AoE damage in the ballpark off sins, while having okay single target damage. Meanwhile we retain probably the best toolkit for actually mitigating damage, intercede being especially amazing.
Juggs also have pretty solid mobility now, having the rootbreak on enrage and possibly mad dash puts us in the ballpark of sin tanks, especially if they're using force speed mainly defensively.

I'm pretty sure juggs will be just fine, as they were in 4.0 before they got the dot on Chilling Scream

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
09.22.2017 , 02:07 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by PrometheanDeath View Post
I think we all forgot the first rule about tanking, you are not meant to do damage lol. Tanks are meant to defend, stall, take hits, and protect. Guarding your teams healer, intercede them for damage reduction, give them a damage shield on your AoE taunt, CC focusing enemies, stun enemies in their main burst etc etc. The idea of skank tanking was never meant to be, even the devs mentioned that it was not their intention to have tanks in dps gear. Juggs are in a good place, and many just don't realize it, but the utility you own (Listed above) is better than with the other tanks have anyway.
The entire reason that the preponderance of us who main tanks even for PvP, run tanks as skank is because tanking gear has been consistently useless. Why would I bother using gear that does nothing for my survivability when I could have the same survivability and do more damage?

I do my best to stay in the realm of logical thought, but quite frankly if the devs want skanking to not be a thing, they have to make tank gear increase survivability. Otherwise I can be a super annoyance to the enemy, while helping to kill him too.

As for the freezing force thing, while i am a bit perturbed they are nerfing a utility when they claimed they weren't going to mess with utilities until after the dps changes (seriously let's nerf tank dps but face tanking mercs and snipers are ok?), I also don't see this as a severe nerf. Yea the damage will go down a little especially in PvP where I keep if up all the time anyway because kiting is so prevalent. But the major damage dealer is still unnerfed in guardian slash so I'm not going to scream too much because these forums are full of "nerf tank damage" people and that would kill aggro holding in pve.

Final thought in skanking. Part of the reason it's so prominent since 5.0 is due to the gear. The other part of the issue is the survivability of the dps spec. I personally started when I was running vigi with a healer buddy of mine, got ikn a hypergates, died more than 10 times and couldn't do anythijng because of being focused so hard. Everyone else on my team had fewer deaths. By which I mean like 5. I got sick of beijng wrecked repeatedly, not contributing to my team, and I main tanks anyway. So I told my buddy to make me skanking gear. So, make vigi/focus survive better and guess what? Dpsers will go back to being dps. But no, only damage based utilities can be nerfed.

Quote:
Sin give a player 5% dmg reduction for 6 seconds on AoE taunt, and aside from stuns that you have too, there's no intercede, there's no damage shield.
Pt even worse, stuns as always, oil slick can help allies because the enemies are debuffed with the accuracy reduction, and their AoE taunt only reflects 1 hit, makes that completely useless against attacks such as penetrating blasts.
No need to start complaining you lost damage from a dot, when giving tanks a dot is literally the most unheard of thing any game can do. Sins and PTs don't own dots, and most tanks from other games don't either, because of instant threat generation. This nerf was warranted and chilling scream was just meant to be a controlling skill in the first place, not something that hits harder than ravage like it does now.
I believe sins can spec into a small heal aoe taunt? No idea how useful it is any more though. Also, I didn't resume taking the small damage reduction until recently because it used to interfere with the more powerful sage bubble.

PT you won't hear me complaining, though they do have the better aoe damage options. I personally have never had any issues holding aggro in pve at least since cyclone slash so I'm not screaming too loudly about the nerf, except to wonder what happened to not nerfing utilities.

Tank wise for a long time, the pecking order has been shadow, guardian, vg. I really can't compare to other mmos because this is the only mmo I play. I just don't see many Vg, and shadow has perfectly viable for PvP dps specs so not as much of a need to run tank. People who want to run around being obi wan or mace windu, or Anakin or whatever pick guardian so it will always be popular. And people get tired of being stomped on eventually, like me and the hypergates.

Basically I won't be screaming about the nerf to tanks, but since we are both the tank with the lowest aoe and they are nerfing a utility when they said they weren't I am sighing a bit. Less for the damage loss and more for a "I feel your priorities are off" issue.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
09.22.2017 , 02:17 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
The entire reason that the preponderance of us who main tanks even for PvP, run tanks as skank is because tanking gear has been consistently useless. Why would I bother using gear that does nothing for my survivability when I could have the same survivability and do more damage?

I do my best to stay in the realm of logical thought, but quite frankly if the devs want skanking to not be a thing, they have to make tank gear increase survivability. Otherwise I can be a super annoyance to the enemy, while helping to kill him too.

As for the freezing force thing, while i am a bit perturbed they are nerfing a utility when they claimed they weren't going to mess with utilities until after the dps changes (seriously let's nerf tank dps but face tanking mercs and snipers are ok?), I also don't see this as a severe nerf. Yea the damage will go down a little especially in PvP where I keep if up all the time anyway because kiting is so prevalent. But the major damage dealer is still unnerfed in guardian slash so I'm not going to scream too much because these forums are full of "nerf tank damage" people and that would kill aggro holding in pve.

Final thought in skanking. Part of the reason it's so prominent since 5.0 is due to the gear. The other part of the issue is the survivability of the dps spec. I personally started when I was running vigi with a healer buddy of mine, got ikn a hypergates, died more than 10 times and couldn't do anythijng because of being focused so hard. Everyone else on my team had fewer deaths. By which I mean like 5. I got sick of beijng wrecked repeatedly, not contributing to my team, and I main tanks anyway. So I told my buddy to make me skanking gear. So, make vigi/focus survive better and guess what? Dpsers will go back to being dps. But no, only damage based utilities can be nerfed.



I believe sins can spec into a small heal aoe taunt? No idea how useful it is any more though. Also, I didn't resume taking the small damage reduction until recently because it used to interfere with the more powerful sage bubble.

PT you won't hear me complaining, though they do have the better aoe damage options. I personally have never had any issues holding aggro in pve at least since cyclone slash so I'm not screaming too loudly about the nerf, except to wonder what happened to not nerfing utilities.

Tank wise for a long time, the pecking order has been shadow, guardian, vg. I really can't compare to other mmos because this is the only mmo I play. I just don't see many Vg, and shadow has perfectly viable for PvP dps specs so not as much of a need to run tank. People who want to run around being obi wan or mace windu, or Anakin or whatever pick guardian so it will always be popular. And people get tired of being stomped on eventually, like me and the hypergates.

Basically I won't be screaming about the nerf to tanks, but since we are both the tank with the lowest aoe and they are nerfing a utility when they said they weren't I am sighing a bit. Less for the damage loss and more for a "I feel your priorities are off" issue.
I think they're nerfing the Chilling Scream utility because it directly affects dps in a way no other utilities do. When they say utility I think they mean survivability and cc and the like

DDaMAGEr's Avatar


DDaMAGEr
09.22.2017 , 03:17 PM | #10
How many tanks used Persistent/Piercing Chill power at all? There are other semi-mandatory (or even mandatory) powers at tier 4. Like +2 seconds to Saber Reflect. And Guardian/Jugg's Tanking rotation has bigger # of rotational powers to maximize defenses (+2 comparing to VG and +1 comparing to Shadow).

Defense/lmmortal could get adjustments to DTPS, but l think they're balanced as they are now (except maybe reflect duration extension mandatory perk). Shadow is highly overpowered - that one needs DTPS adjustments for sure.