The builds I have seen thus far:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McZhGMRkGMrtzZc.1

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MZhGMRkhMrtzZf0c.1

 

My question is why pass up crackling charge in the madness tree, and charge mastery in the Darkness tree instead of sith defiance?

 

I'm only level 19, but those SEEM more attractive.

 

Thanks in advance.

Because you are a dps class, is the simple answer.

 

Charge mastery increases your dps, sith defiance does not.

 

Note that the build w/o sith defiance actually picked up Entropic field (30% less aoe damage).

 

Since you are not the tank, 99% of the damage you take will be aoe. Thus, entropic field is much more damage reduction than sith defiance.

Well if your going deception spec crackling charge is pretty much useless because you'll be using surging charge.

Because you are a dps class, is the simple answer.

 

Charge mastery increases your dps, sith defiance does not.

 

Note that the build w/o sith defiance actually picked up Entropic field (30% less aoe damage).

 

Since you are not the tank, 99% of the damage you take will be aoe. Thus, entropic field is much more damage reduction than sith defiance.

 

I thought thats what I said, why not take charge mastery, which in the builds included do not.

 

What charge should deception be using? At lvl 19 i've been using lighting, is that wrong?

Actually from my theory crafting, if you have the extra point, Charge mastery is better than thrashing blades dps wise (because of the % of your damage affected, since Charge mastery affects maul while thrashing blades doesn't, and a large portion of melee damage in deception is from maul)...

 

Quick napkin math would be like this:

 

What % of your damage does thrashing blades affect?

 

In a normal rotation, the skills used would be shock, discharge, maul, assassinate, saberstrike and voltaic (with surging procs).

 

In this type of a rotation, at least for myself, ~2/3 of the damage is melee and 1/3 is lightning. of that 2/3, maul, saberstrike and assasinate make up for at least half of the physical damage.

 

For argument's sake, lets assume that voltaic does 30% of your total damage (probably high.) In this case, you get a 1.8% total damage boost from the 6% from thrashing blades.

 

Using the same numbers, if 66% of your damage is physical, all of it gets 9% armor penetration from charge mastery. Light has ~25% armor and Heavy has ~40%.

 

On 25% armor, 9% penetration is a 2.25% damage boost to physical or a 1.485% damage boost total.

 

On 40% armor, 9% penetration is a 3.6% boost to physical or 2.376% overall. Since we always have more problem against the heavy armor types than the light armor types I personally find this the better choice. Also it makes for some truly spectacular maul crits with expose weakness up

 

The choice is pretty trivial though so really up to you.

 

 

You never use lightning charge as deception so no crackling charge.

Oh sorry.

 

I uh, brain farted.

 

So 6-9% armor pierce is certainly dps, but then you realize your only 2 abilities that hit armor are voltaic and maul. also 9% armor reduction is certainly less damage than 6% more voltaic, unless they have severely high armor, and since we don't really have numbers...its kinda up in the air.

 

Also maul already pierces 50% armor (if you use it when it procs, which should be the only time you use it), and tacking 9% more onto that will not accomplish much.

 

And like the above said, you don't use lightning (except when leveling and < lvl 20).

 

You can use either lightning or dark charge, either works. When you hit 20, pick up surging and use that for the rest of the game.

I thought thats what I said, why not take charge mastery, which in the builds included do not.

 

What charge should deception be using? At lvl 19 i've been using lighting, is that wrong?

 

Tank = Darkness = Dark charge

DPS burts = Deception = Surging charge (or lighting if you have not unlocked it)

DPS DoT = Madness = Lighting charge

 

 

Although nothing prevents you from experimenting with different charges in different builds/tree's

Tank = Darkness = Dark charge

DPS burts = Deception = Surging charge (or lighting if you have not unlocked it)

DPS DoT = Madness = Lighting charge

 

 

Although nothing prevents you from experimenting with different charges in different builds/tree's

 

Thanks, when do you unlock surging charge? I looked on some wiki's and they show it as a lvl 1 ability.

Its in your tree.

 

Your earliest opportunity is lvl 20, which is why I pointed it out.

Its in your tree.

 

Your earliest opportunity is lvl 20, which is why I pointed it out.

 

Thanks!

Oh sorry.

 

I uh, brain farted.

 

So 6-9% armor pierce is certainly dps, but then you realize your only 2 abilities that hit armor are voltaic and maul. also 9% armor reduction is certainly less damage than 6% more voltaic, unless they have severely high armor, and since we don't really have numbers...its kinda up in the air.

 

Also maul already pierces 50% armor (if you use it when it procs, which should be the only time you use it), and tacking 9% more onto that will not accomplish much.

 

And like the above said, you don't use lightning (except when leveling and < lvl 20).

 

You can use either lightning or dark charge, either works. When you hit 20, pick up surging and use that for the rest of the game.

 

Did you just read my math at all? It doesn't matter if you already pierce 50%, another 9% still does the same extra damage as that piercing is additive not multiplicative...

 

By the way, Assasinate is physical as well and so is saberstrike.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Windkull

Right, it is additive.

 

Armor suffers from diminishing returns, however. Someone should go find that thread with the formulas, I can't find it any more!

 

Anyway.

 

...yea i need to find the formulas.

 

My point is that we don't know how much armor bosses or whatever have. obviously at some point 6% reduction is going to be better. I don't know what that point is. Also noone has simulated (i'm working on it...) the average amount of voltaic slashes to other junk that you use during a fight, so we can't really value the other talent either.

 

59% armor piercing will make you do maybe like, 3% more damage than 50% armor piercing. ugh I wish I could find that formula. I'll edit this when I find some numbers, and maybe eat my words, lol.

 

EDIT: okay, so the formula is

 

ArmorRating / ( ArmorRating + 200 * Level + 800 ) * 100

 

from sith warrior. Lets say like, a boss has 6k armor (i'm pulling this out of my butt, i have no idea, but this is like heavy armor). I'm assuming its lvl 50. Whatever.

 

He has a base 6000/(6000+200*50+800)*100 = 35.7% reduction.

 

If you pierce 50% of that, he will have 21.74% reduction. You have ~22% increased damage.

 

If you pierce 59% of that, he will have 18.55% reduction. You pierced ~26% increased damage.

 

You gained about 4% with 9%. If you only had 2 points to spend, he would have about 19.65% DR, so you'd gain ~25% damage, so its about 3% increase to maul.

 

Probably not worth it for maul.

 

*I was wrong about one thing. increased additive piercing is inverse diminishing returns...the more pierce the better. Which means MAUL is actually the BEST case scenario for the armor pierce talent.

 

If we just talk 6% (you only have 2 points if you went chain shock) armor pierce, you'd do...34.3% DR, so you'd gain 2.2% increased damage.

 

So the question is now, is 2.2% increased damage better than 6% vs damage.

 

The answer: I don't know!

Edited January 9, 2012 by theonepanda

Without meters this is the hardest part, its very hard to tell if voltaic makes up for enough of your damage that 6% is more than the benefit of armor piercing...

 

However, in PVP its almost always going to be worth it because you want your big hitters in your burst phase to be able to knock the guy down, and that's not VS, its maul/assasinate/maul to get the kill from 50%...

Tank = Darkness = Dark charge

DPS burts = Deception = Surging charge (or lighting if you have not unlocked it)

DPS DoT = Madness = Lighting charge

 

 

Although nothing prevents you from experimenting with different charges in different builds/tree's

 

I tend to keep Dark up most of the time (speccing darkness so it's kind of a given) but on occasion I'll drop out and into lightning for a quick boost in output and it has worked fairly well for me. It's a little twitchy, but I tend to micromanage abilities anyways so its not a huge deal for me, especially since I tend to solo more often then not. Granted I'm only level 19 right now so that may change for me later.