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PvP Suggestion: Revising Electro Net


kissingaiur

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I believe it’s time to revise Electro Net and I have some suggestions.

 

Electro Net was introduced at a time when Mercenaries/Commandos were particularly weak—before abilities like Rocket Out, Responsive Safeguards and improved Kolto Overload—and needed a trump card to make them more viable/survivable. It was and remains one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Mercenaries’ new defensive cooldowns make them extremely tanky—the developers should consider a rework of Electro Net to be a critical quality-of-life change for PvP.

 

Let me be clear: I am not advocating the removal of Electro Net. I think it’s an interesting mechanic, adding a layer of complexity to the game. The following suggestions are with a view to improving balance in PvP. As it stands, Electro Net is too punishing; it is particularly frustrating when multiple Electro Nets are in play. Here are three suggestions:

 

1)The target of Electro Net receives a 90s (edited) buff which prevents them being affected by Electro Net for its duration (similar to the “Bastioned” buff applied by Cybertech grenades). Optionally, players could be unable to activate Electro Net against players who are immune (the ability would be grayed out on their action bars) so they don’t waste it during this time.

 

or

 

2) Rework resolve: make players immune to the effects of Electro Net completely when their resolve meter is filled (when they have “white bar”), enabling them to use escapes and high-mobility actions. Electro Net, in addition to restricting activating lifesaving defensives, it also punishes you for moving during its duration with its stacking DoT. This makes the slowing addition to the Electro Net function in combat more like a root than a slow. The resolve system is meant to give players a window during which they can defend themselves but Electro Net denies you this window. If developers are wary of reworking hinder, at least prevent players’ movement from being impaired when their resolve meter is filled.

or

 

3)Reduce the duration of Electro Net’s effects from 9 seconds to 7 seconds. Slight reduction in effect time.

Edited by kissingaiur
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These changes would not add “interesting complexity” to the game, they would be straight up nerfs. Mercenary is not good in team ranked, it doesn’t need nerfs to its utility. Sniper and sorcerer are stronger ranged dps, and sorc and operative heals are much stronger than mercenary heals. Your changes will make it so electronet is either not usable half the time, or usable perhaps once per round in arenas. That is ridiculous, and will simply make mercenary even worse than its counterparts in group ranked.

 

And for what? What is the purpose of this? So solo ranked is “better”? For starters, they need to fix matchmaking in solos. That’s the number one issue in solos, not that electro net is too strong. Secondly, the game is not balanced around solo ranked, nor should it be. If the game was balanced around a game mode where having four dps happens reasonably often, every single class would be given so much sustain and defensive power that Trinity comp matches would end in acid. Lastly, most control or hinder effect that are stacked are powerful. Double carb and double awe are examples of meta defining group ranked comps that revolve around having multiples of a powerful control effect. Multiple electronets SHOULD be powerful, it’s meant to be a powerful ability. And unlike awe/carbonize, electronet is only a hinder effect. It does not lock people out of using most abilities, and guard can still be moved when electronet is being used. This is why net is not as strong as other control effects, and why it doesn’t need a nerf in group ranked.

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why it doesn’t need a nerf in group ranked.

 

Why on earth would they balance around a dead game mode?

 

These suggestions for net in the OP are excellent. Mercs are by far the most overpowered pvp class in everything except group ranked, and group ranked has been totally irrelevant for a long time.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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Why on earth would they balance around a dead game mode?

 

These suggestions for net in the OP are excellent. Mercs are by far the most overpowered pvp class in everything except group ranked, and group ranked has been totally irrelevant for a long time.

 

The game has been balanced around a trinity group of two dps, a healer, and a tank since launch. Ignoring that is just silly.

 

Also, I can’t help but notice that all the players who call group ranked irrelevant are invariably mediocre reg/solo stars who tend to lack basic skills such as positioning, awareness, game sense, etc.

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Also, I can’t help but notice that all the players who call group ranked irrelevant are invariably mediocre reg/solo stars who tend to lack basic skills such as positioning, awareness, game sense, etc.

 

The reflexive school-yard insult is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that group ranked is irrelevant. No one good plays it. All that was left in season 10 was mediocre teams farming mat farmers, and now even that is gone. It's just dead. You clearly have a hard time accepting the truth.

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These changes would not add “interesting complexity” to the game, they would be straight up nerfs. Mercenary is not good in team ranked, it doesn’t need nerfs to its utility. Sniper and sorcerer are stronger ranged dps, and sorc and operative heals are much stronger than mercenary heals. Your changes will make it so electronet is either not usable half the time, or usable perhaps once per round in arenas. That is ridiculous, and will simply make mercenary even worse than its counterparts in group ranked.

 

And for what? What is the purpose of this? So solo ranked is “better”? For starters, they need to fix matchmaking in solos. That’s the number one issue in solos, not that electro net is too strong. Secondly, the game is not balanced around solo ranked, nor should it be. If the game was balanced around a game mode where having four dps happens reasonably often, every single class would be given so much sustain and defensive power that Trinity comp matches would end in acid. Lastly, most control or hinder effect that are stacked are powerful. Double carb and double awe are examples of meta defining group ranked comps that revolve around having multiples of a powerful control effect. Multiple electronets SHOULD be powerful, it’s meant to be a powerful ability. And unlike awe/carbonize, electronet is only a hinder effect. It does not lock people out of using most abilities, and guard can still be moved when electronet is being used. This is why net is not as strong as other control effects, and why it doesn’t need a nerf in group ranked.

 

The ability itself is what adds complexity to the game. By nerfing it slightly doesn't remove the complexity of the ability, it makes the ability more balanced for the certain revamped Mercenary class. When Electro net was added it was some half-*** attempt (no offense devs) to fix a class that really needed massive reworking to be on par with others. Mercenaries became that class where you would go "well at *least* they have net to offer the team". Net design for that time was in reaction to the class not having any real way to escape players in battle because they are a stationary range class with long cast times and channels. Even back then the ability over-tuned but it was mostly overlooked because the class was overall not that great in pvp. Net didn't even need to exist back then if Mercenaries had the defensive they have now.

 

By adding for example a bastion buff you can have solo ranked matches that do not revolve around your sorc dps ability to dodge 3 nets in a row. You could like actually play the game.

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You're both right, in a way.

 

The game was originally designed around trinity comps.

 

granked is the smallest of minorities, even among those who regularly pvp.

 

MANY of the "balance" changes that have been made over the past 4 years -- including the introduction of electronet & charges to flares and culminating in reflect -- were clearly made in order to give mercs some of the self-sufficiency that juggs and sorcs enjoyed. now as we look back (REFLECT!) on dcds given to other classes, it's patently obvious that BW has turned away from the trinity meta. I don't think that's a good thing, but it is a fact.

 

I have long advocated that the solution wasn't to give mercs the same dcds as juggs (which they did!) but, rather, to nerf dps dcds to the extent that healers and tanks were necessary. I know no one wants to hear this, but PTs are what dps should look like in a trinity meta. deadly as hell but incredibly mortal and absolutely in need of the "support classes."

 

so as much as I hate to agree with slimeydoom, he's right in that things should feed the need for heals and tanks. however, jedimasteralex is also correct in that BW is going in the other direction and has bee for years.

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By adding for example a bastion buff you can have solo ranked matches that do not revolve around your sorc dps ability to dodge 3 nets in a row. You could like actually play the game.

 

The issue in this hypothetical is not that electronet is too powerful per say, but that matchmaking is stacking three mercenaries on one team. If it were altered so that class stacking was discouraged, that would be better than nerfing electronet so it’s only usable once per round.

 

This is treating the symptoms of solo ranked, not addressing the root cause of the problems. This same logic got every healing class nerfed at the start of 5.0 to reduce the TTK, when the issue was that classes like sniper, mercenary, and marauder had too much sustain, not that healers were overtuned.

 

And once again, the changes that you suggested, such applying a 2-3 minute enet resistance buff or not allowing white barred targets to be netted, would make the ability very bad in trinity matches. Furthermore, just putting a band aid on the issue of solo ranked class stacking by nerfing net would just mean that tomorrow people would just complain about something else, such as stacking fury marauders or something.

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You're both right, in a way.

 

The game was originally designed around trinity comps.

 

granked is the smallest of minorities, even among those who regularly pvp.

 

MANY of the "balance" changes that have been made over the past 4 years -- including the introduction of electronet & charges to flares and culminating in reflect -- were clearly made in order to give mercs some of the self-sufficiency that juggs and sorcs enjoyed. now as we look back (REFLECT!) on dcds given to other classes, it's patently obvious that BW has turned away from the trinity meta. I don't think that's a good thing, but it is a fact.

 

I have long advocated that the solution wasn't to give mercs the same dcds as juggs (which they did!) but, rather, to nerf dps dcds to the extent that healers and tanks were necessary. I know no one wants to hear this, but PTs are what dps should look like in a trinity meta. deadly as hell but incredibly mortal and absolutely in need of the "support classes."

 

so as much as I hate to agree with slimeydoom, he's right in that things should feed the need for heals and tanks. however, jedimasteralex is also correct in that BW is going in the other direction and has bee for years.

 

Sadly I don't think bioware will want to take away classes I win buttons.

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The reflexive school-yard insult is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that group ranked is irrelevant. No one good plays it. All that was left in season 10 was mediocre teams farming mat farmers, and now even that is gone. It's just dead. You clearly have a hard time accepting the truth.

 

Solo ranked is not a serious game mode. It is a lottery of 8 pugs thrown together, and skill is not as important as when you queue in terms of gaining rating. Terrible players are mixed in with good players and the result is a disgusting quagmire of cancer. If that’s what you consider to be the height of competitive game play, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Group ranked is dead because no one wants to queue and get stomped by the top teams, not because it’s irrelevant. That’s what it’s been in my experience, because very few people ever ask my team to queue against them unless it’s challenges and they can’t lose rating. If you’d like to play truly competitive matches, just dm me on the forums or something and we can set up a time to do fours against each other. If you’d rather just do solos and pretend that you’re a good player, I guess I can understand. But don’t tell me no one good plays group ranked if you don’t play that game mode.

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Solo ranked is not a serious game mode. It is a lottery of 8 pugs thrown together, and skill is not as important as when you queue in terms of gaining rating. Terrible players are mixed in with good players and the result is a disgusting quagmire of cancer. If that’s what you consider to be the height of competitive game play, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Group ranked is dead because no one wants to queue and get stomped by the top teams, not because it’s irrelevant. That’s what it’s been in my experience, because very few people ever ask my team to queue against them unless it’s challenges and they can’t lose rating. If you’d like to play truly competitive matches, just dm me on the forums or something and we can set up a time to do fours against each other. If you’d rather just do solos and pretend that you’re a good player, I guess I can understand. But don’t tell me no one good plays group ranked if you don’t play that game mode.

 

The more players on a team, the higher the chance one of them will be a weak link in a pure death match mode.

 

Honestly, solo ranked without flaws would be a better metric for judging skill of a player. Although 2s (in another game i played) were pretty decent in terms of teamwork + skill.

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Solo ranked is not a serious game mode. It is a lottery of 8 pugs thrown together, and skill is not as important as when you queue in terms of gaining rating. Terrible players are mixed in with good players and the result is a disgusting quagmire of cancer. If that’s what you consider to be the height of competitive game play, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Group ranked is dead because no one wants to queue and get stomped by the top teams, not because it’s irrelevant. That’s what it’s been in my experience, because very few people ever ask my team to queue against them unless it’s challenges and they can’t lose rating. If you’d like to play truly competitive matches, just dm me on the forums or something and we can set up a time to do fours against each other. If you’d rather just do solos and pretend that you’re a good player, I guess I can understand. But don’t tell me no one good plays group ranked if you don’t play that game mode.

 

People don't play team ranked because they don't want to lose 50 times to get the mats.. That is too painful and annoyingly long.

 

Mat farming kept team ranked alive as decent teams were queing and getting matched vs each other.

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Solo ranked is not a serious game mode. It is a lottery of 8 pugs thrown together, and skill is not as important as when you queue in terms of gaining rating. Terrible players are mixed in with good players and the result is a disgusting quagmire of cancer. If that’s what you consider to be the height of competitive game play, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Group ranked is dead because no one wants to queue and get stomped by the top teams, not because it’s irrelevant. That’s what it’s been in my experience, because very few people ever ask my team to queue against them unless it’s challenges and they can’t lose rating. If you’d like to play truly competitive matches, just dm me on the forums or something and we can set up a time to do fours against each other. If you’d rather just do solos and pretend that you’re a good player, I guess I can understand. But don’t tell me no one good plays group ranked if you don’t play that game mode.

 

You fundamentally misunderstand me. Group ranked is literally irrelevant because it's dead. Whether you like it or not, practically speaking, solo ranked, flawed as it is, absolutely is the height of competitive gameplay in this game. If you think it isn't, you're just delusional. If you think being a former group ranked player makes you good at pvp, that's fairly laughable.

 

And just to underscore the point, no one good plays group ranked, because hardly anyone plays group ranked at all. Just for fun, here are some numbers from the leaderboards:

 

Total players in solo ranked: 14210

Total players in group ranked: 2322

(6 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 10 or more wins in solo ranked: 5690

Players with 10 or more wins in group ranked: 304

(about 19 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 20 or more wins in solo ranked: 3238

Players with 20 or more wins in group ranked: 104

(about 31 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 100 or more wins in solo ranked: 294

Players with 100 or more wins in group ranked: 0

 

I'm sure everyone can see and understand the implication of these numbers.

 

To bring this back on topic, my point is that any arguments against nerfing net because it would harm group ranked should not be taken at all seriously.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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People don't play team ranked because they don't want to lose 50 times to get the mats.. That is too painful and annoyingly long.

 

Mat farming kept team ranked alive as decent teams were queing and getting matched vs each other.

 

No it didn't. They all dodged the top teams in queue. I was there, I was in chats with them, or in group queueing with them. all it did was kill the competitive ranking.

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You fundamentally misunderstand me. Group ranked is literally irrelevant because it's dead. Whether you like it or not, practically speaking, solo ranked, flawed as it is, absolutely is the height of competitive gameplay in this game. If you think it isn't, you're just delusional. If you think being a former group ranked player makes you good at pvp, that's fairly laughable.

 

And just to underscore the point, no one good plays group ranked, because hardly anyone plays group ranked at all. Just for fun, here are some numbers from the leaderboards:

 

Total players in solo ranked: 14210

Total players in group ranked: 2322

(6 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 10 or more wins in solo ranked: 5690

Players with 10 or more wins in group ranked: 304

(about 19 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 20 or more wins in solo ranked: 3238

Players with 20 or more wins in group ranked: 104

(about 31 times as many in solos)

 

Players with 100 or more wins in solo ranked: 294

Players with 100 or more wins in group ranked: 0

 

I'm sure everyone can see and understand the implication of these numbers.

 

To bring this back on topic, my point is that any arguments against nerfing net because it would harm group ranked should not be taken at all seriously.

 

You misunderstand... well, pretty much everything.

 

You might be noticing that I bring up group ranked in discussions. Why is that? Well, group ranked is the purest form of the trinity comp, which this whole game is based on. Operations are supposed to be two trinity comps. Flashpoints were designed for trinity comps. Even pvp was designed around the idea of trinity comps. Whenever all three roles are available, the solo ranked match maker arranges them into trinity comps. What does this mean, I wonder? It’s almost as though the whole game is based on trinity comps, and any balance changes should be based on them! Groundbreaking!

 

Now why should balance consider trinity comps? Well, if you make dps classes able to survive without the aid of a tank and healer, when you put tanks and heals into the matches, nothing will ever die. A dps that doesn’t have a tank and a healer should die if they get netted over and over. If a dps can survive that without any outside help, then they will be immortal with a guard and a healer. This is why group ranked and trinity comps are relevant.

 

This is my third time explaining the same concept to you. For the sake of my sanity, please don’t make me do it a fourth time.

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In this case, Slimeydoom is correct, in that this game is designed around trinity and that is how it should be. You screw with trinity, you will break pve and pvp both.

 

That being said, E-net is only breakable with stun breaker and it has a duration of 2 hard stun. It needs to respect white bar. No movement impair while whitebarred, and upon placement on foe 3/4ths of resolve bar filled. (possible a "climbing" resolve that builds the longer they go with breakering. In that case, enet wo'nt start with 3/4ths, it will end with 3/4ths.

 

PS: There are two enets in swtor, but no one complains about the other one because it is balanced. Thesecond enet in swtor is carnage mara gore. you net someone for 2 seconds every 15 seconds. compare to enet, 90 seconds of cd, 8 sec duration. thats about 10 seconds of cd per 1 sec of duration. The reason enet is not balanced is swtor pvp happpens in dps windows, not in cleave pressure. does cleave work? yes, but you will be destroyed by a good hrd swap team, and the only counter to hrdswap is hrdswap.

Edited by Seterade
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In this case, Slimeydoom is correct, in that this game is designed around trinity and that is how it should be. You screw with trinity, you will break pve and pvp both.

 

That being said, E-net is only breakable with stun breaker and it has a duration of 2 hard stun. It needs to respect white bar. No movement impair while whitebarred, and upon placement on foe 3/4ths of resolve bar filled. (possible a "climbing" resolve that builds the longer they go with breakering. In that case, enet wo'nt start with 3/4ths, it will end with 3/4ths.

 

PS: There are two enets in swtor, but no one complains about the other one because it is balanced. Thesecond enet in swtor is carnage mara gore. you net someone for 2 seconds every 15 seconds. compare to enet, 90 seconds of cd, 8 sec duration. thats about 10 seconds of cd per 1 sec of duration. The reason enet is not balanced is swtor pvp happpens in dps windows, not in cleave pressure. does cleave work? yes, but you will be destroyed by a good hrd swap team, and the only counter to hrdswap is hrdswap.

 

Exactly. Nobody complains about gore, also the hinder is 1.5 seconds (not 2) from what I recall, which means it is only within 1 full gcd window unless your alacrity is 1.3.

 

Whereas enet is just game breakingly bad

Edited by RACATW
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You misunderstand... well, pretty much everything.

 

You might be noticing that I bring up group ranked in discussions. Why is that? Well, group ranked is the purest form of the trinity comp, which this whole game is based on. Operations are supposed to be two trinity comps. Flashpoints were designed for trinity comps. Even pvp was designed around the idea of trinity comps. Whenever all three roles are available, the solo ranked match maker arranges them into trinity comps. What does this mean, I wonder? It’s almost as though the whole game is based on trinity comps, and any balance changes should be based on them! Groundbreaking!

 

Now why should balance consider trinity comps? Well, if you make dps classes able to survive without the aid of a tank and healer, when you put tanks and heals into the matches, nothing will ever die. A dps that doesn’t have a tank and a healer should die if they get netted over and over. If a dps can survive that without any outside help, then they will be immortal with a guard and a healer. This is why group ranked and trinity comps are relevant.

 

This is my third time explaining the same concept to you. For the sake of my sanity, please don’t make me do it a fourth time.

 

Ironically, I've perfectly understood your point but you still haven't understood mine. Group ranked pvp (ie, trinity comp pvp) no longer exists for all practical purposes, so it makes very little sense to balance pvp around a game type that is no longer played. It doesn't matter what the original design philosophy was or that group ranked is the "purest" form of the trinity comp, whatever that means. Bioware should be able to recognize that regs and solos are all that matter now, and they should balance with those facts in mind.

 

The net nerfs that Hottie proposed would be most welcome in those game types and would lead to much more fun and balanced game play. And the great part is, there would be no downside to nerfing net, because no one is playing group ranked anyway. And the fact that the devs are highly unlikely to add unique mats to group ranked again (they said as much in the ama), there's no reason to think group ranked won't stay dead. Do you understand now? If not, I probably can't help you.

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Ironically, I've perfectly understood your point but you still haven't understood mine. Group ranked pvp (ie, trinity comp pvp) no longer exists for all practical purposes, so it makes very little sense to balance pvp around a game type that is no longer played. It doesn't matter what the original design philosophy was or that group ranked is the "purest" form of the trinity comp, whatever that means. Bioware should be able to recognize that regs and solos are all that matter now, and they should balance with those facts in mind.

 

The net nerfs that Hottie proposed would be most welcome in those game types and would lead to much more fun and balanced game play. And the great part is, there would be no downside to nerfing net, because no one is playing group ranked anyway. And the fact that the devs are highly unlikely to add unique mats to group ranked again (they said as much in the ama), there's no reason to think group ranked won't stay dead. Do you understand now? If not, I probably can't help you.

 

Here are some group ranked streams from the past few days since you have so much trouble finding people that are doing it.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434529191

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434966461

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435465762

There's even someone streaming group ranked as I post this...

 

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please look around the thread and notice how literally everyone but you acknowledges that trinity comps, not solo ranked, are the basis for SWTOR pvp. By your logic, we should just delete tank and heals from the game because 4dps solo ranked is all that matters. I'm not going to argue anymore with someone who thinks the whole world is wrong and he is right.

Edited by SlimeyDoom
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Here are some group ranked streams from the past few days since you have so much trouble finding people that are doing it.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434529191

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434966461

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/435465762

There's even someone streaming group ranked as I post this...

 

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please look around the thread and notice how literally everyone but you acknowledges that trinity comps, not solo ranked, are the basis for SWTOR pvp. By your logic, we should just delete tank and heals from the game because 4dps solo ranked is all that matters. I'm not going to argue anymore with someone who thinks the whole world is wrong and he is right.

 

You're a rather silly person. The numbers from the leaderboards for solos vs granked are there for all to see lol

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You're a rather silly person. The numbers from the leaderboards for solos vs granked are there for all to see lol

 

I like how that's the part you focus on, not the whole point about the game not being based on 4dps v 4dps solo ranked. You're so remarkably good at ignoring the point, it's almost like you're doing it on purpose. I’m going to post, yet again, why trinity comps matter when thinking of balance. Do try to read and comprehend it this time.

 

“You might be noticing that I bring up group ranked in discussions. Why is that? Well, group ranked is the purest form of the trinity comp, which this whole game is based on. Operations are supposed to be two trinity comps. Flashpoints were designed for trinity comps. Even pvp was designed around the idea of trinity comps. Whenever all three roles are available, the solo ranked match maker arranges them into trinity comps. What does this mean, I wonder? It’s almost as though the whole game is based on trinity comps, and any balance changes should be based on them! Groundbreaking!

 

Now why should balance consider trinity comps? Well, if you make dps classes able to survive without the aid of a tank and healer, when you put tanks and heals into the matches, nothing will ever die. A dps that doesn’t have a tank and a healer should die if they get netted over and over. If a dps can survive that without any outside help, then they will be immortal with a guard and a healer. This is why group ranked and trinity comps are relevant.”

Edited by SlimeyDoom
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I like how that's the part you focus on, not the whole point about the game not being based on 4dps v 4dps solo ranked. You're so remarkably good at ignoring the point, it's almost like you're doing it on purpose.

 

I live in reality. Group ranked is dead, and therefore irrelevant to any discussion about pvp balance. If group ranked ever revives and becomes remotely relevant again, then you may have a point.

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I live in reality. Group ranked is dead, and therefore irrelevant to any discussion about pvp balance. If group ranked ever revives and becomes remotely relevant again, then you may have a point.

 

Group ranked might not be as active as solo ranked, but trinity comps are the corner stone of swtor balance. You can say “hurrdurr but solo ranked so much players” all you want, that’s just how the game works.

 

Also, who even are you? You’re not a top tier ranked player, because I would know you. What are your characters and their rating? I’d love to see them as you seem to think you just know better than the entire swtor community

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