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[PvE] The Mercenary / Commando Healing Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
[PvE] The Mercenary / Commando Healing Guide

Sandsz's Avatar


Sandsz
01.22.2015 , 11:24 AM | #101
Evidence to back up your statements is where ?

Also as im sure your aware DR doesnt mean the stat is useless, it just means you get less benefit from it, but regardless, I'm not trying to be patronising so appologies if thats how i am coming across. I'm trying to get you to show everyone this evidence that your basing this judgement on. I appreciate the point your trying to get across but your just typing the same thing over and over and not showing anyone your evidence.
That's no moon. It's a space station

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.22.2015 , 12:09 PM | #102
I posted the evidence you seek 2 pages back, here let me show you:
Quote: Originally Posted by ceazare View Post
Alacrity Percentage = 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AlacrityRating / 60) / 1.25 ) ) )
Surge Percentage = 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / 60) / 0.22 ) )
Now here's a little example for simplicity sake:
Let's say you have a single heal that heals for 5k and is instant and spammable. Also you have 40% crit (an absurdly large amount which favours surge, i picked this to demonstrate how much stronger alacrity actually is).

That's a base HPS of 4.2k without any surge or alacrity rating.

Now if you spend all your 192 budget of 1100 stat on
  • Surge: 28.22%
    which is an HPS increase of 8.95%
  • alacrity: 11.75%
    which is an HPS increase of 11.75%
and if you do a 3/7 split:
  • Surge: 17.15%
    which is an HPS increase of 5.4*%
  • alacrity: 8.81%
    which is an HPS increase of 8.81%
  • together: 14.254*%

Happy?
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.22.2015 , 12:17 PM | #103
Also I had to repeat everything i said because you ignored it very time.
But if you don't believe me I hope you believe KBN who is know for his precise theorycrafting:
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Kym is not wrong that Alacrity produces more consistent results for all healers, including scoundrels/operatives. Whether or not you're using instant-cast abilities is completely irrelevant. 1% of alacrity is, very directly, 1% more healing done. It is always 1% more healing done barring lag and player error. Surge is variable in that it raises the standard deviation on your healing output and makes individual heals (most noticeably, big heals) more RNG-dependent.

Also remember that the rate of return on surge drops into the toilet as you start exceeding the 300-400 mark. Alacrity simply provides better HPS returns, point-for-point, than surge does once you start getting to those relative levels (i.e. when surge is around 400 and alacrity is around 100). Better HPS return means higher ceiling on your potential healing output, and since alacrity is providing that HPS in a controlled fashion, a skilled healer will be able to convert 100% of that HPS into eHPS.

This is completely ignoring the most significant factor of alacrity though, which is that it improves the responsiveness of your heals. Being able to do more things faster as a healer means that you can target swap at tighter intervals, shorten your response times to damage, and contract your burst window when needed. This is an ancillary benefit to alacrity that DPS do not get. Thus, alacrity is a fantastic stat on paper when you measure increasing HPS. It's a nearly god-like stat in practice when you combine that with the added control.

Putting it plainly, if you're running a low-alacrity build as a healer, you're doing it wrong. The only exception is if you have an absolutely wretched internet connection and your lag is variable and extreme, since that will wash out any benefits from the time shortening. I highly recommend no less than a 50/50 alacrity-to-surge ratio. Running even more alacrity than this ratio (i.e. a 75/25 ratio) would not be harmful. Crit is to taste, certainly, though I wouldn't go much above 400 (even as a scoundrel), and certainly not above 500.

---

Countering the OP's points more directlyů The implication is that alacrity is all about regenerating energy. This makes absolutely zero sense, since alacrity reduces your cast times and GCD duration by exactly the same amount as it increases your regeneration. Thus, the two are in balance. Alacrity is simply a "do everything the same, but faster" stat.

Additionally, the argument has been raised that it's not really practical to get enough alacrity to make a difference on instant cast timings. This argument is based on the fallacy of perception. Sure, you're not fitting in an "extra" GCD in any short time window, but alacrity isn't about fitting in extra GCDs, it's just about doing everything faster. Think about it. This argument is analogous to claiming that power is useless because it would require an impractical amount to double the value of Underworld Medicine. It's not about doubling up; it's about small incremental gains and optimizing those gains.

Alacrity is one of the best stats in the game right now, and the only reason it isn't used more heavily by DPS is because they are constrained to spend a minimum of 6 item slots on accuracy, leaving them so little stat room that surge (with its excellent low-pool rate of returns) plays the dominate role. Healers have no such constraints, and they get additional benefits out of alacrity (i.e. responsiveness and control). There is absolutely no reason to under-stat on alacrity.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

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cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.22.2015 , 01:01 PM | #104
Orderken has spoken!

Quote:
Power versus Critical
  • With 14 Aim Augments, the amount of Critical that maximizes expected healing is about 655 in Resurrected gear or 715 in Revanite gear.
  • With 14 Power Augments, the amount of Critical that maximizes expected healing is about 675 in Resurrected gear or 735 in Revanite gear.
Alacrity versus Surge
  • Among your Ear, Implants, and Enhancements, 3 have Surge and 7 have Alacrity.
source: http://dulfy.net/2015/01/22/swtor-3-...e-by-orderken/
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
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Sandsz's Avatar


Sandsz
01.22.2015 , 03:15 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Also I had to repeat everything i said because you ignored it very time.
When you are talking down to me at every opportunity, yeah im gonna ignore you
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cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.22.2015 , 03:34 PM | #106
It was condescending because you literally ignored everything I said, not the other way around:
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandsz View Post
I'd like to see the reasoning behind taking 600 Alacrity rating. I've healed as a Merc since beta and have always avoided it for high end game healing as ive felt it creates 2 many resource issues.

A bodyguard guildie took up 400 alacrity rating for a test and noticed it only gave him 0.2 extra resource regen. That coupled with the minimal cast time increase (1.5 sec rapid scan down to 1.44 secs) and the fact theres only one ability (rapid scan) that your going to be channeling anyway. We came to the conclusion that its still something to avoid.

I still fail to see a reason to take alacrity seriously as a Merc when Power, Surge and crit will potentially increase the amount ALL of your heals do, whereas Alacrity will only decrease the cast time of ONE of them.

I saw a guide a while ago that showed that altho alacrity is the best stat for HPS it is also the worst stat for heat management, unless anyone can show some definitive maths on this forum to proove otherwise, i find it quite hard to take anything over 0 alacrity tbh.
Here you said alacrity doesn't affect isntants and creates resource issues.
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Alacrity decreases cast time, channel time, gcd, icd, cd and increase resource regen to off-set the previously listed. Oh and it only competes with surge not power and crit.

Surge has bad diminishing return so after like 300-400 points it doesn't worth it anymore.
Here I said that is not the case because it also reduces instants and resource regen is granted by alacrity to offset the faster spending.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandsz View Post
You may not have read my post properly, but i made it clear that i was aware what it does, but you still miss the point i have made. Only 2 of your heals needs to be channeled, at the most 3, which still leaves 5 others that are instant cast.

The regen you gain from it doesn't give as much as a Kolto shot here and using supercharged gas would do. 400 gives an additional 0.2 regen.

So the only thing imo thats beneficial is the Cd/Gcd reductions. But imo, i still dont think its that ideal to take 600 on 1 stat JUST for that purpose because at the end of the day, its still a massive resource sink.

Unless anyone can show the maths and not (opinions), for the CD reduction you would gain per 100 of the stat for example, i'm still inclined to feel this guide is giving people the wrong ideas about stat management.
Then here you claimed you know what it's doing yet again you say it only affects casted abilities and that it doesn't give enough resource back.
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
sigh, having instants or casts doesn't matter since it decreases both equally. Having 8% alacrity for example means you will do everything precisely 8% faster. Which means 8% HPS increase.
Surge hits DR hard at 300-400 rating, if you wish to waste your tertiary stats, by all means go ahead.

Just saying even melee classes with 100% instants are using alacrity even though they have to blow 750 on accuracy, that should tell you how much stronger alacrity actually is. And healers only need surge and alacrity.

PS: The resource regen boost is ONLY for offsetting the cast/gcd reduction, so basicaly you are back to square 1.
Then I told you the same thing again. But you still didn't get it:
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandsz View Post
As i said, without any maths to show on here, its all just opinions really.

Look, im not trying to pick a fight over who knows best or what ever. I'm just looking for 100% accurate info and without any definitive evidence, its hard to take anyones word as whats right and whats not right. When i have healed current HM encounters with no problem using 0 alacrity and having 0 resource issues.

From 3 years worth of HM and nim healing experience, ive always found, altho it adds to your number out put, it also adds the same to your resource usage. And the damage thats done at times in these encounters, you need to manage your resource bar effectivly. So 8% faster is great but burning your resources 8% faster, aint so great.

And yes i know it has changed somewhat from previously, but what i am asking, for the sake of any mercs who read this post, is put down some evidence to back up the claims that are being made is all. Its ok saying what does what, but without cast iron evidence, how can you say for fact that its 100% correct? You cant. Personally, i'd love to see some evidence down but until then i'll go with what i know has fit my playstyle so far as i trust it to work for me.

A lot of different people will have different play styles so in their opinion, what works for them is right. All i am saying, is lets see the evidence that whats stated on this thread is correct or its just a persons opinion of what they feel has worked well for them and nothing more im afraid.

So
Even though I told you twice now that alacrity doesn't cause resource issues you still insisted that it does. If I have to say something three times and you still refuse to see don't be surprised if I lose my (not very big to begin with) patience.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
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Sandsz's Avatar


Sandsz
01.22.2015 , 04:56 PM | #107
I asked you to show me evidence and you made the below post, its not ignoring your comments, its asking you to to show me the proof that what your saying is correct. Imo if someones suggesting i shud totally change out my playstyle and rework half of my stats because i wont get the best out the class, then yeah i am gonna question it. And yeah, i am gonna ask you to show me some proof.

Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Also I had to repeat everything i said because you ignored it very time.
But if you don't believe me I hope you believe KBN who is know for his precise theorycrafting:
The trouble with written conversations, they are so easily taken out of context and i believe you think i am trying to argue with you when i am not and perhaps feel insulted because you feel i am ignoring your comments when all ive done is ask for proof that what your saying is correct. Again, that is wrong, I am simply asking for info, so theres no need to be condescending.

Also. you read to much into my post, ive not said anywhere that alacrity doesnt have any affect on instants, i said theres only one ability that your going to be channeling anyway (which is wrong, theres 2 ). That doesnt actually say i think its got no effect on instants. So your actually assuming i mean something there that i dont

You are also claiming i dont know what it does, when i actually state those things in my post anyway :P

Its not that i dont get how it works, i was simply asking for proof (which u posted) and yes i will now be taking it more seriously. I've always played with 0 and done fine in the past and the only reason i was on this thread was because i was looking into it anyway. But its hard to take things seriously when people make a claim and dont back it up with evidence.

If i told you that your doing everything wrong, im sure you would want me to prove it.

Also, you've not mentioned anything about "not causing resource issues" on the last 2 pages. The rest of those i read ages ago so if you did it prior to that, im afraid ive slept since then.

Anyway, lets not derail this thread. I asked a question, i got the info i wanted. Lets leave it at that as you've obviously taken offence to being questioned.

Thanks anyway
That's no moon. It's a space station

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.22.2015 , 05:10 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandsz View Post
Anyway, lets not derail this thread. I asked a question, i got the info i wanted. Lets leave it at that as you've obviously taken offence to being questioned.

Thanks anyway
TBH I tend to speak my mind which often comes off as being rude, rarely it's intentional but mostly it's just how I talk. I'm quick to anger but also quick to cool down
So no offence taken.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandsz View Post
Also, you've not mentioned anything about "not causing resource issues" on the last 2 pages. The rest of those i read ages ago so if you did it prior to that, im afraid ive slept since then.
I actually tried to, here:
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
And I said numerous time that alacrity boosts resource regen IN THE SAME MAGNITUDE it boost speed. So if you do everything 8% faster and recover 8% more resource at the same time what will happen?
Here:
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
PS: The resource regen boost is ONLY for offsetting the cast/gcd reduction, so basicaly you are back to square 1.
And here:
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
and increase resource regen to off-set the previously listed.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
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Natan's Avatar


Natan
01.24.2015 , 09:26 AM | #109
I'm sure like a lot of commandos/Mercs right now, I'm undecided how much Critical Rating to go for. After reading both guides on Dulfy it should either be at 200 or 650. One seems low and the other high.. so I've settled somewhere in the middle for now.

I understand the argument that if you have high surge/critical multiplier then you need a high critical in order to make use of it, i just don't want to run with not enough power.

Has anyone done enough testing to give an idea of the ideal number for Critical Rating?

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.24.2015 , 09:35 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Natan View Post
I'm sure like a lot of commandos/Mercs right now, I'm undecided how much Critical Rating to go for. After reading both guides on Dulfy it should either be at 200 or 650. One seems low and the other high.. so I've settled somewhere in the middle for now.

I understand the argument that if you have high surge/critical multiplier then you need a high critical in order to make use of it, i just don't want to run with not enough power.

Has anyone done enough testing to give an idea of the ideal number for Critical Rating?
Orderken uses models do determine BiS gearing not just guessing, so you can believe him that 600+ crit is BiS. High crit has the best HPS return for your stat investment. Contrary to popular fears dropping 650 power won't suddenly make your heals pathetically weak.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy