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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan


Beniboybling

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Now there is a way for Revan to win this. But it would require a lot of things to line up perfectly.

 

First, Revan has to be able to quickly counter the Sith Assassins after their first strike. This is possible, but nothing is ever certain. If he can at least severely limit the Assassins capabilities, he can keep his fleet in shape.

 

Second, he has to keep his soldiers up to par psychologically. The threat of the Assassins still remains, which can cause psychological issues for the men. It is quite possible for Revan to keep his men sane.

 

Third, he has to take out the Ravager. The Ravager is Traya's greatest military weapon. If Revan can trap the Ravager and destroy it, he gains a huge step towards victory.

 

Fourth, he has to ensure the loyalty of his men. This is nearly impossible. Traya can use the Dark Side to manipulate a large faction of Revan's top officials over to her side, or even turn Revan's allies against him. If Revan can keep his men loyal, he takes another step towards victory.

 

Fifth, He needs the forces to take Malachor. This is not easy. The number of Sith at the Academy will not easily fall. If he can rally the necessary forces to attack Malachor, he can win.

 

Sixth, he has to be able to beat Traya. Again, not easy, almost impossible. In an all-out battle, Traya gets the benefit of Malachor's Dark energies in addition to her ability to Sever Force and drain Force. If Revan can beat her, it will be through lightsaber skill. But that didn't save Kavar, who is a better duelist than Traya in my opinion. Fighting Traya is an uphill battle and almost impossible to win.

 

Not ALL of those have to happen for Revan to achieve victory.

 

Besides, there are other ways (as I've argued and explained).

 

Also - Revan is more then capable of not only defending his men from the assassins, but he is capable of creating his own assassin group. How do we know this? Well, he created the group that Kreia is using, So in this since, Revan understands how to train/use these assassins at least as well as Kreia.

 

I'm going to try to sum up my argument here:

- Revan's men/fleet are more numerous

- Revan is a better tactician when it comes to legit battlefield tactics. Kriea says so herself.

- Revan's men are extremely loyal to him. The proof of this is in the fact that they turned due to him.

- Revan is capable of adopting assassin/guerilla warfare tactics due to being the guy who created Traya's assassins. Even if Revan doesn't create his own assassins, he is obviously knowledgable of this kind of warfare, and would find a way to defend his men from assassin techniques

- Revan has WAY better resources/logistics due to the Republic

- Revan (I think - not sure about this one) is better one-on-one then Kreia (however on Malachor V Kreia would win)

 

Revan for the win.

 

I realize some of you guys disagree with this, but I feel that this is legitamently canon-supported.

 

P.S. Sorry if I ever come off as pissed during this Kaggath. I'm simply deep in debate mode.

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wat? What kind of argument is this?

 

She is a teacher, so yes, she does talk, but she does more than talk, she's not some overblown windbag, she built the sith Triumverate, put two of the most powerful perversions of nature under her command and when they overthrew her, as all Sith do, she humbled them right back down with the crew of a small stock freighter. She used every bit of power available to her but not without reason, she did not wantonly drain planets like Nihilus which ultimately was HIS downfall. She did not just wantonly sever every force-user from the force, that would give up her abilities of discression and deception.

 

Sorry but she didn't build the Sith Triumverate. Darth Revan built it.

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Not ALL of those have to happen for Revan to achieve victory.

 

Besides, there are other ways (as I've argued and explained).

 

Also - Revan is more then capable of not only defending his men from the assassins, but he is capable of creating his own assassin group. How do we know this? Well, he created the group that Kreia is using, So in this since, Revan understands how to train/use these assassins at least as well as Kreia.

 

I'm going to try to sum up my argument here:

- Revan's men/fleet are more numerous

- Revan is a better tactician when it comes to legit battlefield tactics. Kriea says so herself.

- Revan's men are extremely loyal to him. The proof of this is in the fact that they turned due to him.

- Revan is capable of adopting assassin/guerilla warfare tactics due to being the guy who created Traya's assassins. Even if Revan doesn't create his own assassins, he is obviously knowledgable of this kind of warfare, and would find a way to defend his men from assassin techniques

- Revan has WAY better resources/logistics due to the Republic

- Revan (I think - not sure about this one) is better one-on-one then Kreia (however on Malachor V Kreia would win)

 

Revan for the win.

 

I realize some of you guys disagree with this, but I feel that this is legitamently canon-supported.

 

P.S. Sorry if I ever come off as pissed during this Kaggath. I'm simply deep in debate mode.

 

Sure, Revan has all of those things, but you are ignoring Traya's advantages.

 

Remember that this is Jedi Knight Revan. The Revan that doesn't know about these assassins and doesn't know what makes them so effective. He could create his own assassins, but they would pale in comparison to Traya's.

 

Traya's forces are much more powerful. Her fleet is much more powerful than Revan's standard Hammerhead-class vessels. She has powerful Sith at her command that almost destroyed the Jedi Order.

 

Her forces are loyal to her as well. They are servants of the Dark Side and of her. It is not as easy for Revan to convert Traya's forces as it would be for her to convert his.

 

Revan has logistics on his side, but that can mean nothing when Traya turns his men against him.

 

In a one-on-one fight, Traya will win. Since the battle will take place on Malachor, Traya will beat Revan.

 

This is an uphill battle for Revan. It is not a clear victory for either side, but Traya would win in the long run.

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Sorry but she didn't build the Sith Triumverate. Darth Revan built it.

 

Um... no? Traya found the Sith remnants and united them. She then created the Sith Triumvirate with Nihilus and Sion. Revan didn't create it. He created the oppurtunity, but not the actual organization.

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If it came down to a fight, Revan. Kreia's not a fighter. Even so, Revan's a great strategist. Kreia, on the other hand, is a manipulator.

 

Traya has something more than manipulation and the Darkside of the Force going for her, she has cunning and understanding... understanding of battle and the consequences of every action.

 

Even at the height of his power, Revan was blind and unable to see past his glory, his vision. This is demonstrated by the Mandalorian wars when he chases them into the unknown regions and discovers the Sith empire, falling under the Emperor's control.

 

His short-sightedness is demonstrated again when he returns to known space and broke free from the Emperor's mind control. It is hypothesized by Kreia that Revan did not intend to conquer the Republic but save it by unifying the galaxy and preparing for the Sith's assault, under his banner. His downfall here was his lack of understanding of the culture he was now basked in; the Sith-Betrayal, by his Apprentice Malak.

 

After Malak's betrayal comes the physical memory loss, where he was short-sighted because of his inability to remember the past. Imagine if he knew of the empire that would come, do you think he would want the Star Forge destroyed?

 

And the final example of Revan being blind: his defeat at the Foundry... justification of exterminating an entire culture, an entire SPECIES, and being ganked by 4 lesser heroes of the Sith Empire.

 

Darth Traya did not have this fault, this short-sightedness. She always had a plan, always thought days, weeks, months... years ahead, and the one time she did not understand, she did not see, with Meetra Surik trying to unify the Jedi, she figured it out and tried to adjust accordingly.

 

Strategy is more than good leadership, and a good General is more than natural charisma.

 

As far as a 1 on 1 fight... that has already been debated, I have yet to see any canon Revan powers that match Traya's abilities to sever the force, force drain, exploit shatterpoints, manipulate wounds, etc.

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wait, why are people even discussing the use of the Ravager when only Nihilius with his power could hold the ship together?

 

No nihilus = no Ravager.

 

We cannot use Nihilus, but Nihilus' powerbase and ship and bases are belong to us. But I understand, we have to not allow super weapons because that would make the match a very 1-sided fist fight with Traya as the clear victor.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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Traya has something more than manipulation and the Darkside of the Force going for her, she has cunning and understanding... understanding of battle and the consequences of every action.

 

Even at the height of his power, Revan was blind and unable to see past his glory, his vision. This is demonstrated by the Mandalorian wars when he chases them into the unknown regions and discovers the Sith empire, falling under the Emperor's control.

 

His short-sightedness is demonstrated again when he returns to known space and broke free from the Emperor's mind control. It is hypothesized by Kreia that Revan did not intend to conquer the Republic but save it by unifying the galaxy and preparing for the Sith's assault, under his banner. His downfall here was his lack of understanding of the culture he was now basked in; the Sith-Betrayal, by his Apprentice Malak.

 

After Malak's betrayal comes the physical memory loss, where he was short-sighted because of his inability to remember the past. Imagine if he knew of the empire that would come, do you think he would want the Star Forge destroyed?

 

And the final example of Revan being blind: his defeat at the Foundry... justification of exterminating an entire culture, an entire SPECIES, and being ganked by 4 lesser heroes of the Sith Empire.

 

Darth Traya did not have this fault, this short-sightedness. She always had a plan, always thought days, weeks, months... years ahead, and the one time she did not understand, she did not see, with Meetra Surik trying to unify the Jedi, she figured it out and tried to adjust accordingly.

 

Strategy is more than good leadership, and a good General is more than natural charisma.

 

As far as a 1 on 1 fight... that has already been debated, I have yet to see any canon Revan powers that match Traya's abilities to sever the force, force drain, exploit shatterpoints, manipulate wounds, etc.

 

^This

 

Traya would use her forces to give Revan's forces the run-around, while she slowly turned Revan's forces against him. Just because she isn't a general doesn't mean she doesn't understand war and battle strategies. In fact, her ability to see the future while on Malachor would come in handy here. She could see exactly what Revan would do and adjust accordingly. Revan can't fight that.

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Sure, Revan has all of those things, but you are ignoring Traya's advantages.

 

Remember that this is Jedi Knight Revan. The Revan that doesn't know about these assassins and doesn't know what makes them so effective. He could create his own assassins, but they would pale in comparison to Traya's.

 

Traya's forces are much more powerful. Her fleet is much more powerful than Revan's standard Hammerhead-class vessels. She has powerful Sith at her command that almost destroyed the Jedi Order.

 

Her forces are loyal to her as well. They are servants of the Dark Side and of her. It is not as easy for Revan to convert Traya's forces as it would be for her to convert his.

 

Revan has logistics on his side, but that can mean nothing when Traya turns his men against him.

 

In a one-on-one fight, Traya will win. Since the battle will take place on Malachor, Traya will beat Revan.

 

This is an uphill battle for Revan. It is not a clear victory for either side, but Traya would win in the long run.

 

You make a good argument EXCEPT about Revan's capability to train assassins. He created the assassins that Traya will be using in this fight. This means that the capabilty to train and use excellent assassins is IN Revan. Jedi Knight Revan became Darth Revan. Where do you think Darth Revan got his ideas?

 

Also; Revan's fleet is bigger. AND he knows how to use them.

 

And those "poweful Sith at her command" were once Jedi under Revan's command....

 

Where does it say that Kreia's forces are particularly loyal to her?

 

Note: I'm not saying these assassins would be AS good as Kreia's. But they'd be nearly as good, and would, essentially, be nearly just as harmful. This means one less advantage for Kreia.

 

And this duel wouldn't FOR SURE be on Malachor V.

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You make a good argument EXCEPT about Revan's capability to train assassins. He created the assassins that Traya will be using in this fight. This means that the capabilty to train and use excellent assassins is IN Revan. Jedi Knight Revan became Darth Revan. Where do you think Darth Revan got his ideas?

 

Also; Revan's fleet is bigger. AND he knows how to use them.

 

And those "poweful Sith at her command" were once Jedi under Revan's command....

 

Where does it say that Kreia's forces are particularly loyal to her?

 

Note: I'm not saying these assassins would be AS good as Kreia's. But they'd be nearly as good, and would, essentially, be nearly just as harmful. This means one less advantage for Kreia.

 

And this duel wouldn't FOR SURE be on Malachor V.

 

Revan gained the knowledge to make these assassins on Malachor. If he wanted to replicate the assassins, he would have to go to Malachor. We are talking about Jedi Knight Revan here. Mandalorian Wars Revan.

 

Wouldn't matter. Revan's fleet is inferior to Traya's. She had the remnants of Revan's old Sith Empire. The same ships that outmaneuvered the Republic ships, the ships Revan is using.

 

Again, what is your point? You think he can convert them? They are bound to the Dark Side and Traya. She has basically enthralled them to her will. It was only until Nihilus and Sion rebelled that the Sith left her. And then Traya took control again.

 

The duel would take place on Malachor because Traya would ensure that it would. This Kaggath would turn into Traya's personal game. Her abilities as a manipulator would translate to her battle strategy. She would string Revan's forces along while she concentrated on turning Revan's men against him. She would slowly wear Revan down.

 

Edit: Let's face it. Traya's a planner. She schemes. Her ability to create master plans is almost as great as Plagueis and Sidious'. She would have the movements of the war on a calendar.

Edited by Aurbere
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We cannot use Nihilus, but Nihilus' powerbase and ship and bases are belong to us. But I understand, we have to not allow super weapons because that would make the match a very 1-sided fist fight with Traya as the clear victor.

 

yes, but you dont seem to understand. Without Nihilus himself being in this Kaggath. The Ravager is USELESS. Its a wreckage on the surface of Malachor without him. Thats like saying Revan's army has the power of Bastilas battle meditation without actually being in this kaggath.

 

The stipulations of the thread say "No Nihilius", therefor no Ravager.

Edited by Girdeux
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Okay.... so we're both right in a way.

 

Nuh-uh. You are 100% wrong, the Triumvirate as well as the three Sith Lords that headed the Triumvirate were Traya's doing. Revan's only involvement would be his remnant forces that composed their power base, but, as we know, the strength of the Triumvirate, almost 2/3rds of it which she is not allowed to use in this Kaggath, comes from its leaders and its assassins which were trained and created at the Trayus academy.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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yes, but you dont seem to understand. Without Nihilus himself being in this Kaggath. The Ravager is USELESS. Its a wreckage on the surface of Malachor without him. Thats like saying Revan's army has the power of Bastilas battle meditation without actually being in this kaggath.

 

The stipulations of the thread say "No Nihilius", therefor no Ravager.

 

The stipulation is no Superweapons, disqualifying Nihilus' Force Hunger, not his ship or contribution to the strength of the Triumvirate's forces.

 

 

But let's go your way: Sure. Revan also does not have any of his key commanders or the effect of their leadership on the troops. They are now SUPER NOT-EFFECTIVE greenhorns, and Revan's leadership is diminished.

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Revan gained the knowledge to make these assassins on Malachor. If he wanted to replicate the assassins, he would have to go to Malachor. We are talking about Jedi Knight Revan here. Mandalorian Wars Revan.

 

Wouldn't matter. Revan's fleet is inferior to Traya's. She had the remnants of Revan's old Sith Empire. The same ships that outmaneuvered the Republic ships, the ships Revan is using.

 

Again, what is your point? You think he can convert them? They are bound to the Dark Side and Traya. She has basically enthralled them to her will. It was only until Nihilus and Sion rebelled that the Sith left her. And then Traya took control again.

 

The duel would take place on Malachor because Traya would ensure that it would. This Kaggath would turn into Traya's personal game. Her abilities as a manipulator would translate to her battle strategy. She would string Revan's forces along while she concentrated on turning Revan's men against him. She would slowly wear Revan down.

 

Edit: Let's face it. Traya's a planner. She schemes. Her ability to create master plans is almost as great as Plagueis and Sidious'. She would have the movements of the war on a calendar.

 

"Ships that outmanueverd Revan's?" Could you explain when this happens? If so, is it gonna make up for the fact that Revan's a better general AND he's got way more ships then Traya does?

 

And if Traya's ships are technologically superior, then they're violating the Kaggath rules. I believe Beni said that the technology would be universal or something.

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The stipulation is no Superweapons, disqualifying Nihilus' Force Hunger, not his ship or contribution to the strength of the Triumvirate's forces.

 

 

But let's go your way: Sure. Revan also does not have any of his key commanders or the effect of their leadership on the troops. They are now SUPER NOT-EFFECTIVE greenhorns, and Revan's leadership is diminished.

 

The damn ship is useless without Nihilus thats the damn point :rolleyes:. You can call upon the almighty Ravager in this battle, but its certainly going to be of no use when its a wreckage.

Edited by Girdeux
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The damn ship is useless without Nihilus thats the damn point :rolleyes:. You can call upon the almighty Ravager in this battle, but its certainly going to be of no use when its a wreckage on the surface of Malachor.

 

Nihilus is there in the way that Carth is there, Saul Karath is there, superman#123491u517204398 is there. Their prominent powers are nonexistant in this Kaggath but their forces are held together and still apart of this conflict. I don't give a damn if that means a generic commander is leading the Ravager and keeping it together with Duct tape and paste, it is as powerful as it was during the conflict of Telos.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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"Ships that outmanueverd Revan's?" Could you explain when this happens? If so, is it gonna make up for the fact that Revan's a better general AND he's got way more ships then Traya does?

 

And if Traya's ships are technologically superior, then they're violating the Kaggath rules. I believe Beni said that the technology would be universal or something.

 

The ships provided by the Star Forge were superior to the Republics ships in ship-to-ship combat.

 

The ships themselves are superior to the Hammerhead-class vessels that make up the Republic fleet. IIRC the rules state that technology is universal. But the ships in Traya's fleet don't use super special advanced tech. They are just built superior. More guns, heavier armor, larger ships. They are just made superior.

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"Ships that outmanueverd Revan's?" Could you explain when this happens? If so, is it gonna make up for the fact that Revan's a better general AND he's got way more ships then Traya does?

 

And if Traya's ships are technologically superior, then they're violating the Kaggath rules. I believe Beni said that the technology would be universal or something.

 

why do you believe this Kaggath is settled by a legitimate numbers game?

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Nuh-uh. You are 100% wrong, the Triumvirate as well as the three Sith Lords that headed the Triumvirate were Traya's doing. Revan's only involvement would be his remnant forces that composed their power base, but, as we know, the strength of the Triumvirate, almost 2/3rds of it which she is not allowed to use in this Kaggath, comes from its leaders and its assassins which were trained and created at the Trayus academy.

 

*sigh*

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." - Obi-wan Kenobi

 

So I'm 100% wrong? BS! If it weren't for Revan's remaining empire, there would be no Triumvirate. You're wrong.

 

As for these assassins you speak of, they were also created by Revan. Just ask Atton Rand.

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Nihilus is there in the way that Carth is there, Saul Karath is there, superman#123491u517204398 is there. Their prominent powers are nonexistant in this Kaggath but their forces are held together and still apart of this conflict. I don't give a damn if that means a generic commander is leading the Ravager and keeping it together with Duct tape and paste, it is as powerful as it was during the conflict of Telos.

 

That's just how you "feel".

 

This is a cannonical point that shuts down a major part of Traya's Fleet forces. Your opinion is irrelevant.

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Nihilus is there in the way that Carth is there, Saul Karath is there, superman#123491u517204398 is there. Their prominent powers are nonexistant in this Kaggath but their forces are held together and still apart of this conflict. I don't give a damn if that means a generic commander is leading the Ravager and keeping it together with Duct tape, it is as powerful as it was during the conflict of Telos.

 

Nihilus isnt there because:

 

•No superweapons, e.g. Mass Shadow Generator, Darth Nihilus.

•No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Darth Sion & Nihilus, Meetra Surik, Alek/Malak, Saul Karath.

 

You seem to not have played Kotor 2 or read up on the wiki. Since its stated the reason the damn ship is able to be used is because Nihilius is using it. NO NIHILIUS = NO RAVAGER.

 

Theres no point in me replying to you any longer.

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