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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Chapter 4 may have nothing to do with makeb whatsoever.

 

Yet another semantic they refuse to clarify for us. "It's coming with new story." Great... since Makeb is only a planet story arc (or so we're told) and not class stories, where does that leave us? Still in the same colourfully-named creek we've been up for some time, with no plans for implementing a paddle?

 

Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home?

 

And Makeb may have nothing to do with SGRs.

 

Chapter 4 may have nothing to do with SGRs.

 

We don't know because they won't *********** tell us.

 

The censored bit is a word that starts with F and rhymes with "trucking" FWIW.

 

See this? Uluain's had the patience and dedication of a saint... and has had enough. That's a sign.

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What has really ticked me off recently is that we are so cordially invited by Community Support to continue to ask our questions here.

 

In the thread where, over the past ten months, more than seventy-five hundred posts, more than half a million views, we still have received no information, ever.

 

But do please feel free to ask!

 

Feel free to ask, but don't expect to be acknowledged. Your petty human ways are of no concern to us.

 

Incidentally, in our planned communication to Games Industry.biz and/or Kotaku, what are we going to say? (Don't worry about Bioware deleting our posts, they don't read the thread.)

Edited by Tatile
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In honesty, that's what has stopped me from taking this out of the studio. Those unfamiliar with the game will see "inclusive content slated for implementation! whoop-de-doo!" and not understand where our concerns lie. They are likely to misconstrue it as wanting the content sooner (not the case, although it really out to have come alongside OGR, however long that would have delayed all romantic options, but I digress).

 

The problem is more subtle than that, in a way I could hope those concerned with monitoring this thread understand by now, but which I would be at a loss to explain briefly to anyone not already familiar with the game and its community.

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It's inevitable that someone is going to be disappointed with SGR when it does come out. That's yet another problem arising from this silence. In the absence of any concrete information, players have been speculating and getting their hopes too high. It's invariably not going to be with the companions some people wanted or something similar. That is not, in itself, a problem. You can't please everyone, as the saying goes. What is a problem is that people have been allowed to nurture their expectations for quite a long time.

 

There are so many posts in this thread from people who want to romance a particular companion and who have been waiting patiently to be able to do so, maybe even holding off creating or playing certain characters. To allow those people to get their hopes up seems rather unkind if you know some of those companions won't be available.

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I think that's the problem, as most of our grievances come from the wonderful nuances of Bioware's so-called communication. They've played the diplomatic card extremely well in that regard: saying that they have no information, but they do appreciate our patience. From an outsider's perspective they have done everything "right" - likely that outsiders would also see the segregation of LGB players from straight players to be "right". Wait, did I say segregation? I meant to say "treating LGB players differently to straight players".

 

In fact, EA and Bioware are SO thoughtful and SO supportive of the LGB community that they haven't even deigned to entertain the notion of engaging with said community, even though they are more than happy to proclaim their position of acceptance and support to the media and public.

 

Same-sex romances may not be a problem to the share-holders as Ms. Maseda said, but apparently the straight, white male is still far too sensitive to even think that someone, somewhere, might not be a straight white male as well.

 

 

To allow those people to get their hopes up seems rather unkind if you know some of those companions won't be available.

 

By now? Schadenfreude.

Edited by Tatile
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I meant to say "treating LGB players differently to straight players".

 

Well, they aren't discriminating against players on the basis of orientation (other than the delay over inclusion, but there is nothing to be done about that now short of, oh, I don't know, an apology maybe?) but this topic is being handled in a different manner on account of its controversial subject matter – quarantined, as it were, for its own protection from hostile attention.

 

That this makes this topic less visible to the community at large (which it does) puts it at a disadvantage among other topics under discussion permitted free run of General Discussion even when they could better fit in a subforum. We are told it is a forum-wide policy to close and redirect any redundant threads. But even a cursory comparison of popular topics (Hood Toggle, Chat Bubbles, Paid Transfer, Free to Play) will quickly demonstrate that this policy is selectively enforced.

 

I use the term discrimination advisedly and cautiously – I majored in English, I appreciate precision of definition – but when one group (say, those wishing to discuss same-gender romantic content) are treated differently on that account (as is demonstrably the case) in a way that is disadvantageous to their interests in a manner that others are not likewise restricted, then that does fit the definition of the term.

 

Now, no law prohibits BioWare from running this forum however they like. Their roof, their rules. And I am more than free to set up my own forums to discuss this, and moderate that discussion, in any way I like within the policy of my service provider. So legally, it's all kosher.

 

Morally, or ethically... well, it isn't my job to tell others what is right. But it is my job to encourage them to think about right and wrong, and to listen to their conscience, and to do what they find to be right. So I present this for what it is worth as something to think about.

Edited by Uluain
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Well, they aren't discriminating against players on the basis of orientation (other than the delay over inclusion, but there is nothing to be done about that now short of, oh, I don't know, an apology maybe?) but this topic is being handled in a different manner on account of its controversial subject matter – quarantined, as it were, for its own protection from hostile attention.

 

Well, given that EA and Bioware have included LGB-positive content in previous games (that is: one can have same-sex romances in those games) but have decided not to include it in Star Wars: The Old Republic, says to me that they are deliberately treating this subject matter, the content and, arguably, the community who wants said content, differently for no truly expressed reason other than they think it is not as important as opposite-sex romances. I content that if same-sex and opposite-sex romances were considered of equal importance, they would have been recorded and programmed at the same time and would have been released at the same time. For some reason in Star Wars: The Old Republic, EA and Bioware have decided to turn their back on a standard that they themselves set, largely without outside influence.

 

I don't believe they are every going to apologise. At this point in time, I would say that the management at Bioware are probably feeling pretty damn pleased with themselves, thinking they have handled the situation admirably.

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I don't believe they are every going to apologise. At this point in time, I would say that the management at Bioware are probably feeling pretty damn pleased with themselves, thinking they have handled the situation admirably.

 

I don't know. I'd like to credit them with some awareness of the awkwardness of the situation they have created. And without necessarily expecting an apology, one may point out that a social convention does exist by which one may acknowlege unfortunate consequences of actions that cannot be undone, and express one's regret.

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I don't know. I'd like to credit them with some awareness of the awkwardness of the situation they have created. And without necessarily expecting an apology, one may point out that a social convention does exist by which one may acknowlege unfortunate consequences of actions that cannot be undone, and express one's regret.

 

over various subjects, whether they actually be heartfelt apologies for conduct or an attempt to dissuade further criticism. It just doesn't feel like Bioware care enough to be actually working on this content, let alone giving us a YouTube worthy clip of their apologies.

 

I don't trust them to handle the introduction of this content in a mature fashion. I might have all the hope in the world for them to give us a long and detailed article expressing all the nuances of the feature and addressing the questions and concerns that have been raised in this thread, but that's all for naught if they shuffle SGRA's onto the PTS under cover of darkness and start saying that same-sex content has always been important to Bioware and EA as companies and is a mainstay of their games.

 

I'm a dreadful cynic and it's starting to show again, but as my husband always says: companies lie, it's a fact of life, you're a fool for thinking they'd do anything else.

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Tatooine.... female Smuggler and Vaverone Zare..... it's a beautiful thing, man. :)

 

I just pray it isn't a glitch, and that they don't do ANYTHING to "fix" it! But it's there! Not what all of us want, but it's a start.

 

Love ya man, but you better had gotten some screenshots. I really want to see this for myself...I couldn't get into the Smuggler story just yet.

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Not having any opportunity to [Flirt] with male NPCs, while being beaten over the head with opportunities to [Flirt] with female NPCs, is the reason I had to quit playing my Gunslinger. It was detracting from my enjoyment so much that the character was not worth playing. And that is a shame, because I really like how the class handles, and in other respects I enjoy the story. But somewhere shy of Level 40 I just had to put it down and walk away. I have already had to replace one laptop because I punched the screen, and I don't have the spare cash right now.
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What happens exactly?

 

Btw, I'm taking advantage of a 3 day vacation from work right now to confirm whether or not Vavavavoom (Vaverone Zare) on Tatooine is available as a one-time FTB for female Smugglers if you side with her during the final Class mission on Tatooine. I'll post when I know for certain one way or another. :D

 

I think he means the FTB was as success. I really hope so, though I hope they don't "fix" it either.

 

My choice in not playing my Smuggler was due to the mechanics and play style more than anything else. I was primarily playing Pub side at the time and I thought a GS would be close enough to a sniper for my taste. It wasn't, so my LS Chiss IA was born. I'm glad that was a worthwhile romance arc; I actually really like Vector. I don't find the romance boring, but it is somewhat slow. I can see why a lot of players went, "Meh," at him, but I'm glad I perused the relationship. Vector, imho, would make a great m/m pairing if he's an option.

 

Edit: The leak about Chapter 4 is now yanked. When I tried about an hr ago, it told me page not found. I think some mucky-mucks do read this thread and contacted darth hater to have them yank it. A shame. Rather than use the chance to try to clarify to all the playerbase about Makeb having SGRs, level expansions, ect; they are burying it.

 

However, I do understand as a writer why they are trying to keep that stuff down and why the devs would want that as well. Datamining can lead to the Darkside after all, since some stuff that is datamined now may be changed radically. Sometimes it doesn't make it into the game at all.

 

I'm looking at you, uncorrupted Ashbringer. :mad:

Edited by natashina
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Not having any opportunity to [Flirt] with male NPCs, while being beaten over the head with opportunities to [Flirt] with female NPCs, is the reason I had to quit playing my Gunslinger. It was detracting from my enjoyment so much that the character was not worth playing. And that is a shame, because I really like how the class handles, and in other respects I enjoy the story. But somewhere shy of Level 40 I just had to put it down and walk away. I have already had to replace one laptop because I punched the screen, and I don't have the spare cash right now.

 

The main part of the heteronormalcy that I hate about classes like the Smuggler and the SI is the lack of balance. I can roll up a female Smuggler and maybe get one or two flirts by Taris. I wish there was more, but I generally just roll with it. Corso is alright, though I'm not sure if he's to my romance taste.

 

I did get my male Smuggler to Taris and wow...I don't know how many times I had to yell at the screen,

 

"No, I hate Governor Sheresh! Quit asking me to flirt with her!"

"Dang it, I'm trying to save people from a collapsing building here. This is not the time to flirt, Game."

"Okay, I can enjoy rp'ing as a male toon, even a hetero one. But this is plain silly." :rolleyes:

 

Between that and the playstyle not to my taste at all, it wasn't too hard to drop the character. I might try him later or just reroll. I've got my SI or sage to level up after my IA, so it'll be a bit.

 

Same with the SI. Seriously, where the Sith groupies for my female SI?! :(

Edited by natashina
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I think I'll hand my Makeb clarification thread right back to them, then, even if it means bumping it myself, on the grounds that the content is that much closer to going in.

 

Is it titled, "Did I hear this right?" I posted in there stating that since datamining is starting and the rumors are going to start flying, this would be the best time to address the playerbase directly about Makeb.

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Is it titled, "Did I hear this right?" I posted in there stating that since datamining is starting and the rumors are going to start flying, this would be the best time to address the playerbase directly about Makeb.

 

Yep - that's the one, and thanks.

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The main part of the heteronormalcy that I hate about classes like the Smuggler and the SI is the lack of balance. I can roll up a female Smuggler and maybe get one or two flirts by Taris. I wish there was more, but I generally just roll with it. Corso is alright, though I'm not sure if he's to my romance taste.

 

I did get my male Smuggler to Taris and wow...I don't know how many times I had to yell at the screen,

 

"No, I hate Governor Sheresh! Quit asking me to flirt with her!"

"Dang it, I'm trying to save people from a collapsing building here. This is not the time to flirt, Game."

"Okay, I can enjoy rp'ing as a male toon, even a hetero one. But this is plain silly." :rolleyes:

 

Between that and the playstyle not to my taste at all, it wasn't too hard to drop the character. I might try him later or just reroll. I've got my SI or sage to level up after my IA, so it'll be a bit.

 

Same with the SI. Seriously, where the Sith groupies for my female SI?! :(

I know right? My male smuggler flirts with every female with a pulse, He starts flirting on Ord Mantell. No woman is safe... on any planet... of any species. :rolleyes:

 

My female...not so much. And when she does get a chance, I kinda wish she didn't. :(

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OOooh, something I just thought of...

 

I was talking about Sith groupies for a reason.

 

 

As you progress in the SI storyline, you get to have your very own cult!

 

 

I thought that was a wonderful little twist. Well, my first SI I got to that point was female. It was fun, but I hit what I used to call the Tattooine Wall and lost interest. So, being the altaholic that I am, I rolled male and hit the same part in the story. Holy. Crap. Sith groupies! Darkside points were already very easy to get as a sorc, but wow, as a male not only did I get a ton of DS points from flirting but...

 

 

After getting about 300-400ish points from the same Sith groupie, I topped off the final part of the class quest by sleeping with her and then just lying to her about seeing her again.

 

 

Jerk move on my roleplaying part? Sure, but that's what makes a rather crazy evil Sith so much fun. I can't fathom why female PCs cannot be that big of a jerk.

Edited by natashina
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Also, real quick tinfoil hat theory that came to mind while I was thinking about DS aligned characters.

 

<dons>

 

Maybe part of the reason why BW has been so quiet on the SGR front is due to the fact that the players can choose to be villains. That means people can play gay and lesbian villains. I personally don't see any issue with this. People are people. /shrug

 

However, just is there is some well meaning but far right family groups that can have issues with this, there very well could be the just as well meaning but far left family groups going after BW for allowing people to have gay villains. Why? Because BW is all of a sudden, "making gays look evil." :rolleyes:

 

We all know that is total crap. It did seem to stand out to me though that this could happen. Unfortunately, I've seen this kind of behavior before. For example, back in 2006, a bunch of left leaning well meaning family groups here in the US got Speedy Gonzales pulled off the rebooted Looney Toons, siting him as a racist stereotype towards Hispanics. However, the families in Mexico as well as here in the US fought to get him back. They considered Speedy a cultural hero, for always outsmarting the "GREEEEN-GO Pussygato," and for beating up bad guys. It wasn't something that the family group had even thought of and the censorship of poor Speedy was overturned. So that kind of pressure can go both ways. Not only is BW going to have to deal with flack on from far right, but also from the far left as well.

 

Here's a link to the story for some reading on it: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19960

 

Now, that being said...It doesn't make what BW does is right, nor does it make better. However, more of this silence and suddenly when SGRs hit we could have both of those extremes getting mad very fast. I hope The Powers That Be are taking time to armor plate their butts, because between the silence to the players and the backlash they are going to get from other groups, they'll need it.

 

<removes silly hat>

 

Thoughts?

Edited by natashina
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Love ya man, but you better had gotten some screenshots. I really want to see this for myself...I couldn't get into the Smuggler story just yet.

 

Doh! Don't worry. I'm going to make another one to do it again. I promise some Screenshots in a day or two. I have to. I have a bad habit of finding every girl kissing girl scene in every BioWare game I've ever played, if there is one. Trust me, I had to wait until Lair of the Shadow Broker came out to get it in ME2. xD

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Well, I have maintained all along that by delaying this content in a way OGR were not, while still slating it for inclusion, BioWare has alienated both camps. That is what made the compromise decision at which they arrived such an awkward faux pas.

 

It is true that in sci-fi, particularly in "golden age" sci-fi, one of the most commonly used shorthand indicators of a depraved and villainous psyche was to make a character homosexual. Perhaps the best known example of this is Baron Harkonnen from Frank Herbert's landmark novel, Dune. So, yes, there is a reasonable case against the gay villain.

 

However, what the prospective romantic options really offer is an opportunity to play a character of any orientation, and as a hero or a villain or anywhere in between. Same-sex relationships aren't likely to be uniformly tied to dark side decisions.

 

Honestly, I think the silence is due to a policy of simply not discussing pending content until shortly before it goes live. That has been the pattern with previous content patches – you can see it currently underway for 1.5 and F2P. The only reason I would expect this to be different is because a.) this content was announced so early and b.) with only speculation to go on, those wishing to position themselves to access it when it does become available don't know how they ought to handle their characters, companion affection or levelling pace.

 

But at this point, so far past launch, there really is little point in asking at this stage beyond curiosity. People have had to make their own determination of the best way to proceed, and nothing we do or say here can really influence the development of this content at this stage. as far as I can see.

 

So no – simply having this for future inclusion does not really earn my warmest regards, and the silence on this topic has made the unfortunate decision to delay this content that much less palatable. With no updates since March, and minimal information then, and in spite of encouragement to ask here, in the erstwhile Q&A, and through various avenues of communication Joveth recommended, well, I can't say I am particularly happy about this at all.

 

Seemiing to villainize gays could, at this point, hardly make it worse.

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