Never thought about it that way, and my main is a sentinel... I tend to not chain pull in groups because in WoW my tank was a main, and I quit tanking because of stupid DPS... so now my main is just DPS (but I do have some tanks) but I am not a jerk DPS... but yeah, hmmm Bioware really did kinda say "Yo! Knights and Warriors! You should totally be jerks!" with how they work opposite everyone else.

Which sent do have the worst energy managment ever?? Combat sent/carnage mara... Guardian/Jugg has Combat Focus/Enrage. Watchman sent/Anni mara generates energy from their DoTs crits and can leap, thus generating energy, in close quarter. Focus sent/Rage mara have a hard time at the beginning of the fight, until they manage to activate Zen/Berserk. Combat sent/Carnage mara can't generate any energy passively. And you know what.. I still manage to almost never lack energy for my Precision Slash/Gore window.

JK/SW energy management systems is built considering they begin fight with 0 focus/rage. The class is made with the tools needed to perform correctly... while starting from 0. Therefore, no one has any excuse to pull before the tank... At least if they don't want to tank the whole fight

Secondly, tanks should wait for DPS to be ready before pulling. Exemple... On my combat sent I like to build 2 full Centering stacks (1 for Zen, 1 for Inspiration) and at lvl 51 it won't change... I'll just use two Zen back to back. More DPS = less damage taken by the group, doesn't it? At least if the tank knows how to deal with the double Zen opener...

The class is made with the tools needed to perform correctly... while starting from 0. Therefore, no one has any excuse to pull before the tank... At least if they don't want to tank the whole fight

Oh I agree, which is why I don't have much problem with my sentinel, but the stereotypical derp sentinel/marauder probably sees his focus/rage draining away and is like "OHMAGERD I MUSTTT REEMAINZ EN COMBATT!!!!"

JK/SW energy management systems is built considering they begin fight with 0 focus/rage. The class is made with the tools needed to perform correctly... while starting from 0. Therefore, no one has any excuse to pull before the tank.

Of course! No argument here.

But your position is an educated one, based on familiarity with the game and how it works. The newer player has a simpler view of things. He or she gets to the end of the fight, has leftover focus/rage, and doesn't want to waste it. And the next group is just a 30-foot leap away.

This is what I mean by the design of the class encouraging chain pulling.

I'm not trying to excuse it, just explain why I believe it is so prevalent.

A good tank or even a mediocre one is far better if they are attentive to my force bar and stop to give me regen time periodically.

I'm only as good as my healer. I will go go go, but before any biggish pulls or boss fight, I always check healer resources.

2. The actual class mechanics encourage you to chain pull.

 

Think about it. You've got a 30-foot leap that generates action. At the end of one fight, if you don't immediately leap into the next one, your action slowly drains away. When I was leveling my Sentinel I would exhibit the very same "Ja! Mein Leapen!" behavior that so many people complain about. I have to deliberately curb that behavior when I'm in a group.

 

Remember, while waiting for the next pull, everyone else is recovering resources. The JK/SW is losing theirs.

Watchman/Annihilation: No minimum range for Force Leap. You can spam it at 0m.

Combat/Carnage: Focus/Rage regeneration is decent if you've spec'd correctly.

Vigilance/Vengeance: You'll have major problems with Focus/Rage flood because you don't have anything where to dump it before you generate more.

Combat/Carnage: Focus/Rage regeneration is decent if you've spec'd correctly.

WUT?????Combat/Carnage regen is amost decent mid fight not in the opener... except if.... we build Centering use Shi-Cho Zen to get 12 focus, rebuild Centering use Ataru Zen, rebuild Centering, engage combat and pop Inspiration... That's something to try....

Watchman/Annihilation: No minimum range for Force Leap. You can spam it at 0m.

Combat/Carnage: Focus/Rage regeneration is decent if you've spec'd correctly.

Vigilance/Vengeance: You'll have major problems with Focus/Rage flood because you don't have anything where to dump it before you generate more.

I can't tell if:

a) You're trying to educate me on how to play a Jedi Knight / Sith Warrior, or

b) You're trying to say the class mechanics don't encourage you to chain pull

No, point is that you don't have to chain pull. Only thing it changes is that you don't have to use Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault in your opener if you had 5+ Focus/Rage before Force Leap.

But again that ability is already on short CD. It shouldn't matter.

And the armor debuff...

Ok... I felt like I needed to weigh in here a bit from a healer perspective.

 

Is this a problem, and I am really going to direct this at the bulk of the issue Marauders/Sentinels? Yes.. Yes it is and a bad one now. This last double XP weekend I really saw this get a great deal worse than it had been before. I have heard arguments in TS and seen them in game to justify this behavior of leap/smashing ahead of the tank, which had me cringing.

 

Ok, so frequently when I am healing, these "pully DPS' don't either watch nor do they care about my force regeneration and will flat out chain pull while I am racing along using consumption/noble sacrifice recklessly just to try and keep up with them. A good tank or even a mediocre one is far better if they are attentive to my force bar and stop to give me regen time periodically. Something many of the spider monkeys don't do or care to do. I have seen this behavior filter into other aspects of the game as well, OPS/Etc. with disastrous results.

 

I think one change EA/Bioware could do to help fix this would be to give us healers a zero-CD force pull, outside of PvP of course, so that we could keep yanking mid-leap those pully Mara/Sent's. Letting a Mara/Sent die a few times frequently doesn't give them the hint. But, you force pull them out of a leap/smash combo when they have popped all their CD's to be EPIC. Yup, they get really angry and vocal about it. Basically, they need a leash and that would give us the ability to put one on them.

oh god, yes this.

I'm a good healer. I'm not an amazing one, but I'm good. so I can compensate for a lot of the issues including jumpy dps, but honestly? i refused to anymore.

its true, like another person said - they don't even realize they are being healed, unless you stop healing them. so I do. usually with a warning first, so that they know WHY they are suddenly dying (I'm not trying to get back at them, I'm trying to teach them so that they behave better in a future). "if you pull before the tank again? I'm not healing you anymore." if you run off on your own and make everyone else's life more difficult than it should be? I'm not saving you from yourself. stay in stupid even after its been explained why you should not? die in stupid.

and I agree that its not the class, its the players. that seem to be particularly attracted to this class. to the point where, when I play my mara or sentinel - I get surprised reactions. literally. multiple times people went out of their way to tell me how much they appreciated that I wasn't being the usual annoying sentinel/mara they are used to. this is NOT a good thing, incidentally.

but anyways, from a healer perspective? as a rule, dps are much harder to keep alive then tanks. you don't have as many cooldowns, you don't have defensive stats and talents. you go SQUIIIIIIISH much faster. so when dps starts pulling? you are jeopardizing the success of the group, NOT helping it.

even tactical flashpoints, believe it or not - are much smoother with a trinity.

No, point is that you don't have to chain pull. Only thing it changes is that you don't have to use Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault in your opener if you had 5+ Focus/Rage before Force Leap.

 

But again that ability is already on short CD. It shouldn't matter.

And the armor debuff...

Of course you don't have to chain pull. It isn't required. It isn't even necessary. But it is encouraged by the very nature of the class design:

1) Short CD on leap.

2) If you wait between pulls you lose all your leftover focus / rage.

even tactical flashpoints, believe it or not - are much smoother with a trinity.

This is true. When I get a 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps on a tactical it goes quite smoothly.

However, the fights are pretty easy -- nobody hits like a truck until the final boss. When I was leveling my operative healer, the easiest KDY runs were when I got 3 dps. Everything dies so quickly I barely had to heal anyone -- I spent more time dpsing than healing, and still managed to keep everyone at >90%

2) If you wait between pulls you lose all your leftover focus / rage.

Force Leap + Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault

What did you say? Combat/Carnage?

Master Strike/Ravage doesn't require Focus/Rage.

Force Leap + Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault

What did you say? Combat/Carnage?

Master Strike/Ravage doesn't require Focus/Rage.

a) Let me first say that I don't disagree with the above.

b) Let me further say this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

Try this: re-write my argument in your own words. What is it that YOU think I'm trying to say here?

On the flip side, though, I've seen a lot of terrible tanks and healers when I do ops/flashpoint on my sentinel. While I will never pull before the tank and am always patient before pulls, and will CC whatever droid he/she asks me to and never break mine or others CC - if I'm constantly pulling threat (even through guard) am I expected to lower my dps to avoid that? I'm not trying to brag, so don't take it like that, but I spent $90 on a razor naga mouse and have everything keybound, and feel pretty capable with combat/carnage and maximizing my output is fun for me, and that's how I enjoy the game. But, Even when I have similar gear as a tank (tier wise obviously), I find myself constantly popping force camouflage and my defensive CDs because I've got aggro again even when they have guard on me. I mean, in the beginning of a fight/pull if I go all out too early and you're still building your threat then sure, mybad, but if it's happening constantly during the fight then what am I supposed to do? When I run stuff with my guild I don't even worry about it, because I know the tank and he knows what he's doing - but as annoying as a bad dps is, if I've got to consciously lower my dps it's not fun for me, and you as the tank are annoying me immensely.

Also, a lot of healers IMO have trouble healing multiple people especially while under fire. Instead of using CC or kiting while still putting out heals (which every heal class is capable of doing) they immediately blame the DPS for not allowing them to effortlessly play whack-a-mole with the ops frame - at least, thats what it sounds like to me when I see the complaining in ops/group chat, and I've healed many, many ops on my commando as well as done pvp on it for over a year. Yes, when I'm on my sentinel I always go after adds and weak mobs especially if they're going after the healer - but if you're just standing there only paying attention to the ops frame then you don't really have room to complain IMO.

On the flip side, though, I've seen a lot of terrible tanks and healers when I do ops/flashpoint on my sentinel. While I will never pull before the tank and am always patient before pulls, and will CC whatever droid he/she asks me to and never break mine or others CC - if I'm constantly pulling threat (even through guard) am I expected to lower my dps to avoid that? I'm not trying to brag, so don't take it like that, but I spent $90 on a razor naga mouse and have everything keybound, and feel pretty capable with combat/carnage and maximizing my output is fun for me, and that's how I enjoy the game. But, Even when I have similar gear as a tank (tier wise obviously), I find myself constantly popping force camouflage and my defensive CDs because I've got aggro again even when they have guard on me. I mean, in the beginning of a fight/pull if I go all out too early and you're still building your threat then sure, mybad, but if it's happening constantly during the fight then what am I supposed to do? When I run stuff with my guild I don't even worry about it, because I know the tank and he knows what he's doing - but as annoying as a bad dps is, if I've got to consciously lower my dps it's not fun for me, and you as the tank are annoying me immensely.

 

Also, a lot of healers IMO have trouble healing multiple people especially while under fire. Instead of using CC or kiting while still putting out heals (which every heal class is capable of doing) they immediately blame the DPS for not allowing them to effortlessly play whack-a-mole with the ops frame - at least, thats what it sounds like to me when I see the complaining in ops/group chat, and I've healed many, many ops on my commando as well as done pvp on it for over a year. Yes, when I'm on my sentinel I always go after adds and weak mobs especially if they're going after the healer - but if you're just standing there only paying attention to the ops frame then you don't really have room to complain IMO.

In fact as combat you should go all out early... then let the tank taunt off you just after you finished your second PS window (and your second Zen)... just after the taunt you pop force camo... and pop it every time you steal aggro.. combat is so bursty that, at equal gear, we can easily pull through guard during the second PS window.

I'm guessing you've never done Korriban Incursion with no stealthers and all DPS.

 

Trinity isn't needed in tacticals, but I've always felt having one was much quicker and easier. You never had to stop to self heal, you can just go go go.

Actually, I've done Korriban Incursion with a group of 4 snipers and we roflstomped it (2 were overgeared and 2 were undergeared). As long as people know how to use their defensive cooldowns and focus fire it's not difficult.

I hate to inform you than that you are one huge waste in a level 55 hard mode. I'm not kidding. You are dragging your team down and should be a shamed of your self. Respec your tanks to dps like yesterday and zerg those 55 HMs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you being a tank but you think of yourself as a waste currently.

 

Lv 55 flashpoints don't need a tank to complete. A dps is perfectly able to take the full brunt of the damage from the bosses and trashpulls. I have seen this before, I have tanked HMs on my dps either solo, duo or because the tank was a dps with tankbutton enabled. Same goes for a few friends of mine.

(...)

Long story short, you really don't need a tank for anything besides the hardest content opswise (and a potential groupfinder to pop). Therefore arguing that tanks are worthless in tacticals implies that they are worthless for most other content too

I gauge whether a tank is useful for completing an FP by whether the group completes faster with the tank or without. Judging from my experience in tactical FPs, I'd say a group of 4 DPS at or above the base recommended gear level for the FP is always going to complete faster than a similarly geared group with a tank.

In HM 55 FPs on the other hand, the group without a tank is going to complete slower due to wipes/lack of tactical positioning. Unless the healer and DPS are completely overgeared, in which case this discussion is irrelevant so I really don't get your point.

I gauge whether a tank is useful for completing an FP by whether the group completes faster with the tank or without. Judging from my experience in tactical FPs, I'd say a group of 4 DPS at or above the base recommended gear level for the FP is always going to complete faster than a similarly geared group with a tank.

Now I start to understand why some people don't want a group with 1 tank and 1 healer to KDY. It's not like it takes forever to complete it with trinity.

Now I start to understand why some people don't want a group with 1 tank and 1 healer to KDY. It's not like it takes forever to complete it with trinity.

Did you give up on our conversation above?

I've done Kuat enough times to say that it isn't really whether a player is a tank or a DPS so much as whether they know what they are doing or not, that determines speed.

This is definitely true.