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BH abilities cost less than Troopers


Dr_Kid

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Figured I would repost this as it would get more attention in the Trooper forum.

 

After recently comparing my Vanguard and Powertech on my ship's training dummy, I had found a rather major problem. Almost all of my Powertech's abilities cost less energy.

Here is the energy mechanic of both classes.

Bounty Hunters have 100 Heat.

Their primary attacks, (Pyro Spec) Flame burst, rocket punch, thermal detonator, explosive dart and rail shot. All cost 16 Heat.

Other abilities with an advantage would be Electro Dart and Carbonize. CC abilities costing 8 heat.

 

Troopers have 12 Ammo for their energy mechanic.

Their equivalent attacks to Pyro spec (Assault Spec) Ion pulse, stockstrike, assault plastique, sticky grenade and high impact bolt. All cost 2 Ammo, basically 16.666 Heat

Their CC abilities Cryo grenade and Neural Pulse all cost 1 Ammo, equal to 8.333 Heat

 

Here’s what I saw with testing.

 

My Powertech was able to consecutively use 9 Flame Bursts (16 heat) with 4 extra heat left over.

My Vanguard was able to consecutively use 8 Ion Pulses (“16.666 heat”) with 9% extra ammo left over.

It’s easy to compare both classes, if you mouse over your Ammo. “Ammo level = 100%”

 

Using one Ion Pulse brought my Ammo level to 83%, rounded down from 83.333%

Using a Flame burst brought my Heat to 16 basically 84% remaining.

 

The bigger impact is on Energy Regeneration levels. Both classes regenerate the exact amount in relation to their pools.

Bounty Hunters: Fast 5/sec, 5/100 = 5%. Moderate 3/Sec = 3% Very Slow is 2/Sec = 2%

Troopers: Fast .6/sec, .6/12 = 5%. Moderate .36/Sec .36/12 = 3% Very Slow is .24/Sec = 2%

 

 

On my Trooper: 3 Ion Pulses brought me down to Moderate, 7 Ion Pulses brought me down to Very Slow

On my BH: 5 Flame Bursts brought me down to Moderate, 8 Flame Bursts brought me down to Very Slow

BHs get to fire off 1 to 2 more attacks before suffering from reduced energy regen.

Attacks such as Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon, Death From Above/Mortar Volley, Flame Sweep/Explosive Surge, Missile Blast/Explosive Round, Incendiary Missile/Incendiary Round do not have this problem as they cost identical amounts of energy.

25 heat/ 100 = 3 Ammo / 12

The only time troopers have an advantage is with talented abilities that grant 1 Ammo every 6 seconds. (8.333 heat) compared to bounty hunters getting only 8. However this does little to off-set the increased costs of every other ability.

 

This bug affects all Trooper Vanguard and Commando abilities costing 1 or 2 Ammo, resulting in lower DPS or HPS compared to an equally geared and skilled Bounty Hunter.

 

Edit- A sample fix without completely redoing the 12 Ammo system (making it 100 Ammo to almost identical to heat)

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo

1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat

All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo

.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.

This bug also appears to affect Commando 4 Ammo abilities, although to a lesser extent. Mercs abilities cost 33 Heat, Commandos cost 33.333 heat. A reduction from 4 Ammo to 3.96 would also resolve this issue. 3.96/12 = .33

 

Tooltips for 1 Ammo, 2 Ammo and 4 Ammo abilities can remain the same (not displaying decimals) to prevent confusing new players, but mechanically they should be using the exact same costs as Bounty Hunters.

 

EDIT-2 (Edit 3- Further testing indicates bug with Energy Regen shown below is entirely graphical, see post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5808690#post5808690 for more details

 

It seems I also missed the huge difference between regeneration intervals between both classes that further contributes to this problem.

Here are the percentage Intervals between Troopers and Bounty Hunters.

Troopers

At 66.66% Ammo Remaining (8 Ammo), Troopers Get Moderate Regeneration.

At 25% Ammo Remaining (3 Ammo), Troopers Get Very Slow Regeneration.

Very Fast Regen has a range of 33.33%, Moderate a range of 41.66%, Very Slow a range of 25%.

 

Bounty Hunters

At 60% Heat Remaining, BHs get Moderate Regeneration

At 20% Heat Remaining, BHs get Very Slow Regeneration.

Very Fast Regen has a range of 40%, Moderate a range of 40%, Very Slow a Range of 20%

 

In addition to the reduced costs, it appears BH's also get generally higher overall Regeneration, (They can burn 40 Heat and stay in very Fast Regen, Vanguards can only burn 33.33% Ammo before dropping to moderate.) This also constitutes to a DPS Improvement, as well superior burst potential.

 

Sample fix to this problem. Moderate Regen should start at 7.2 Ammo not 8.

7.2/12 = 60%

Very Slow Regen should start at 2.4 Ammo not 3.

2.4/12 = 20%

Edited by Dr_Kid
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Very interesting! Thank you for the maths! That's the problem with decimal numbers. Fractions are of course much better, but which computer is calculating in fractions... So, if the decimal-resolution higher, it is automatically much more exactly in counting. I wish, there would be an easy solution, but there isn't. It's a pity!
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This bug affects all Trooper Vanguard and Commando abilities costing 1 or 2 Ammo, resulting in lower DPS or HPS compared to an equally geared and skilled Bounty Hunter.

 

And yet when people post their DPS logs it doesn't actually happen like that.

 

Emptying a full bar is not a good test since the best players stay in high regen as much as possible.

 

The rounding may also apply to costs as well as total points but you don't get to see it.

Edited by Gyronamics
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And yet when people post their DPS logs it doesn't actually happen like that.

 

Emptying a full bar is not a good test since the best players stay in high regen as much as possible.

 

The rounding may also apply to costs as well as total points but you don't get to see it.

 

This bug has a huge impact even at high regen levels. The main problem is that BH attacks cost 4% less energy, in a long term PVP or PVE engagement, that means the trooper will be forced to use the auto-attack more often just to remain in the high regeneration level, which results in a DPS or HPS loss.

 

I've already checked for rounding. If you mouse over your ammo bar, it's shown in terms of percentage, which can easily be compared to heat. 25% Ammo = 100-75 Heat (25 heat left over)

 

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo

1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat

All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo

.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.

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This bug has a huge impact even at high regen levels. The main problem is that BH attacks cost 4% less energy, in a long term PVP or PVE engagement, that means the trooper will be forced to use the auto-attack more often just to remain in the high regeneration level, which results in a DPS or HPS loss.

 

I've already checked for rounding. If you mouse over your ammo bar, it's shown in terms of percentage, which can easily be compared to heat. 25% Ammo = 100-75 Heat (25 heat left over)

 

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo

1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat

All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo

.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.

 

What proof is that?

 

All that % is showing is ammo translated into % in steps of 1/12.

 

You keep referring to the number of pips as if they are based on a different regen formula.

 

If they are using the same regen as a BH but not displaying a whole ammo until it can be rounded up in a step of 1/12 then the regen is exactly the same at all times.

 

The same applies to the costs, 1 ammo doesn't have to be 1 ammo.

 

The only proof in any of this is a dev reply on internal mechanics (and pigs might fly) or some extremely tedious testing by hand.

 

You believe that Troopers pay more for their attacks.

 

This is provable, set up a macro to click at a fixed interval so that both classes slowly drop into lower regen.

 

Over a long enough period of time the one with the highest cost will dip into lower regen first and this can be seen on a combat log as less attacks.

 

 

Unless of course my theories on them being identical are true in which case they will never differ because it's all just a graphical rather than a mathematical difference in their action points.

Edited by Gyronamics
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What proof is that?

 

All that % is showing is ammo translated into % in steps of 1/12.

 

You keep referring to the number of pips as if they are based on a different regen formula.

 

If they are using the same regen as a BH but not displaying a whole ammo until it can be rounded up in a step of 1/12 then the regen is exactly the same at all times.

 

The same applies to the costs, 1 ammo doesn't have to be 1 ammo.

 

The only proof in any of this is a dev reply on internal mechanics (and pigs might fly) or some extremely tedious testing by hand.

 

You believe that Troopers pay more for their attacks.

 

This is provable, set up a macro to click at a fixed interval so that both classes slowly drop into lower regen.

 

Over a long enough period of time the one with the highest cost will dip into lower regen first and this can be seen on a combat log as less attacks.

 

 

Unless of course my theories on them being identical are true in which case they will never differ because it's all just a graphical rather than a mathematical difference in their action points.

 

The percentage Ammo is shown is the actual amount, not the number of pips. I use Ion Pulse twice and it drops down to 76% with 9/12 Ammo then a second later it goes to 81% still with 9/12. A Macro is also unnecessary due to the Global Cooldown being exactly 1.5 seconds. As I mentioned in the first post, When I use Ion Pulse 3 times (exactly 4.5 seconds) I dropped down to Moderate Regen, then the base regen would put me back into Fast.

4 Ion Pulses (exactly 6 seconds) would fully submerge me into Moderate regen.

 

A Bounty Hunter can use their Flame Burst 5 times (exactly 7.5 seconds) before being fully submerged into Moderate

 

I did another test, I used Ion Pulse, followed by a Hammershot, Basically I fired Ion Pulse exactly every 3 Seconds. It took 14 Ion Pulses to hit moderate Regeneration.

In comparison, I did the exact same test on my Powertech. Flame Burst, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst. I was firing Flame Burst every 3 Seconds due to GCD. It took me 48 Flame Bursts before I hit Moderate regen.

 

Cost is definitely the issue. My Powertech was able to use Flame Burst about 3.5 times more than my Vanguard, before finally hitting moderate regen. A difference that big cannot be due to random chance.

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Ran the exact same test twice until I physically was unable to activate either Ion Pulse and Flame Burst,

Using Ion Pulse every 3 seconds (Hammershots as a filler) My Vanguard was able to activate 29/27 Ion Pulses before completely running out of Ammo.

 

My Powertech using Flame Burst every 3 seconds (Rapid Shots filler) was able to activate 54/56 Flame Bursts before completely maxing out heat.

 

As before, definitely a problem with the cost, not the UI.

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I'll admit usually my Powertech runs shield spec while I run Tactics on my vanguard. That being said I'd notice a bit of difference when tanking on one character compared to the other, it swaying back and forth. Honestly I thought the powertech had slower bottom end energy regeneration, though it was just assumption.

 

That being said Tactics vs Advanced Prototype shows a trooper getting .33 more energy per tic I believe in the Cell Generator vs. Prototype Cylinder Ventilation.

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Ran the exact same test twice until I physically was unable to activate either Ion Pulse and Flame Burst,

Using Ion Pulse every 3 seconds (Hammershots as a filler) My Vanguard was able to activate 29/27 Ion Pulses before completely running out of Ammo.

 

My Powertech using Flame Burst every 3 seconds (Rapid Shots filler) was able to activate 54/56 Flame Bursts before completely maxing out heat.

 

As before, definitely a problem with the cost, not the UI.

 

That is a *huge* difference! No way this is a graphics/display issue!

 

If we were talking about 29/27 Ion Pulses versus 30/28 Flame Burtsts (or even 31/29) I might have been inclined to agree that it could be a lag/user/graphics/display issue. But not with that huge (almost double) a difference.

 

I think I'm going to level a Trooper and BH to 10, choose the VG/PT AC and test this. No talent points, just the basic AC attacks with no buffs.

 

(I do have an Assault Vanguard and a Pyro Mercenary, and I had noticed that I could stay in higher regen rates with the Mercenary much more easily than with the Vanguard. I put that down to different attacks being used (instants versus casts) even though they were both using the "shared" tree. Now I'm not so sure...)

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I have a thread going on about the heat and ammo disparity in the PvP forums. One kind poster has made videos comparing their Powertech and Vanguard (links to them in the opening post). There are also more calculations there, if people still do not believe there is an issue.

 

Always nice to see awareness about this issue. The only issue I have with your post is that the 8 heat back every 6 seconds is rather irrelevant, since it pays back proportionally to the ability cost. Yes, it is marginally lower % of the total pool, but compared to the lower % cost of the abilities, the point is moot.

 

I don't want to steal attention from this thread by linking mine, it's just there is too much information in my thread for one post.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=587930

 

I would like to re-iterate, there is a mathematical difference between them. This is not just a graphical bug (as I hope the videos prove).

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So I created a new Trooper and Bounty Hunter to test this.

 

When they reached level 10 I went to the fleet and used the Level 10 Combat Training Target dummy.

 

Tests were done with 70ms Server Lag and "Ability Action Queue Window" set to "1".

 

Trooper:

Explosive Round (3 ammo): 5 shots before "out of ammo". (4th shot, wait a tiny bit, 5th shot)

Explosive Round (3 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 6 shots before "out of ammo".

Vanguard: (chose AC, trained Ion Pulse, no talent points applied)

Ion Pulse (2 ammo): 8 shots before "out of ammo".

Ion Pulse (2 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 27 shots before "out of ammo".

 

Bounty Hunter:

Missile Blast (25 heat): 5 shots before "overheated". (no wait between 4th and 5th shot)

Missile Blast (25 heat) + Rapid Shots: 6 shots before "overheated".

Powertech:

Flame Burst (16 heat): 9 shots before "overheated".

Flame Burst (16 heat) + Rapid Shots: NEVER "overheated". I couldn't for the life of me get heat to go over "20" never mind "overheat". I tried multiple times. Gave up after about 10 minutes. Tried an hour later again, same result.

(NOTE: I retried the equivalent test on the Vanguard multiple times, but on the Vanguard the result was always the same: out of ammo after 27 shots.)

 

There is definitely a problem here as noted before. Depending on the heat cost, the Bounty Hunter/Powertech has a definite advantage. When spamming only Flame Burst, they can fire off one shot more before "running dry". When spamming Flame Burst and Rapid Shots they never run out of resources (At least not on my test :p).

 

This needs looking into.

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Sadly this has been known for quite some time (around launch) and if I remember correctly, there has YET to be at least a dev acknowledging/denying or even stating that they are even looking into the matter. Edited by Voren_Kurn
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Sadly this has been known for quite some time (around launch) and if I remember correctly, there has YET to be at least a dev acknowledging/denying or even stating that they are even looking into the matter.

 

I've seen others state this, but I don't remember ever seeing anything about this before.

 

The problem isn't really visible unless you test it as I and others have done. Personally, (I'll say it again, personally ;)), I'm not so concerned about the rated PvP problems that can arise from this imbalance, I am however concerned about the quality of life affect this has on Troopers/Vanguards because they have to work harder to stay in the optimal regen range.

 

It would be really nice to get some feedback from Bioware on this.

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This issue has been around since the devs decided that 12 was an equivalent fraction of 100 (AKA: Since Alpha).

 

Why on God's Green Earth they didn't just give Troopers 25 ammo and make the ability costs 1/4 of the Bounty Hunters', I'll never know...

 

Someone on the dev team is a G*****n f*****g r****d.

 

12 IS NOT AN EQUIVALENT FRACTION OF 100!

RRRAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! ++MATH RAGE++

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