Thats a stupid analogy. for one I dont let my kids use calculators, they need to learn the basics without a calculator. Problem soliving in mathematics is not about calculators, son.

So make it really interesting...

A closer analogy would be to have them do the math by hand without knowing half of the numbers involved and having to guess at the solutions.

These people are no longer like minded players...that is hard for you to grasp?

 

Also, stop being a victim.

Or peaking with a voice of an common gamers.

So make it really interesting...

 

A closer analogy would be to have them do the math by hand without knowing half of the numbers involved and having to guess at the solutions.

They could try each number to every empty slot till they find right combo. trial and error yo!

LOL, the analogies work fine, saying its just a gmae is what doesn't work.

 

Its a game...just like EVERY other game....all of them use tools to get better...all of them.

Actually, as someone pointed out previously, all of the analogies that have been presented in this thread have been pretty horrific in hitting their target. Analogies are historically one of the worst ways to make a point because few things are apples to apples even in the same environment/context let alone when you start trying to compare a car w/ air conditioning to a DPS meter in an MMO.

I'm actually as big of a fan as you could find. I love this game. I have three 50s and several mid-20s...

 

I'm calling for a combat log because that is what would be good for the game. Being blind to a game's faults doesn't really make someone a fan... I think it makes them more... well...

 

Blind.

I love this game, but I just can't believe some people ignoring some big issues with the game and then on top of that, they call them a game killer, community, or whatever the hell killer they can come up with.

Actually, as someone pointed out previously, all of the analogies that have been presented in this thread have been pretty horrific in hitting their target. Analogies are historically one of the worst ways to make a point because few things are apples to apples even in the same environment/context let alone when you start trying to compare a car w/ air conditioning to a DPS meter in an MMO.

analogies arent meant to prove anything, they are simply their to relate to unlike things. The ananlogies are fine.

So make it really interesting...

 

A closer analogy would be to have them do the math by hand without knowing half of the numbers involved and having to guess at the solutions.

Thats not math then, its a numbers guessing game.

I love this game, but I just can't believe some people ignoring some big issues with the game and then on top of that, they call them a game killer, community, or whatever the hell killer they can come up with.

Agreed. Those are usually people that got their feelings hurt because they got called on their poor play, or removed from a group because of it.

They don't want parsing now because they might not get carried anymore.

Thats not math then, its a numbers guessing game.

Which is EXACTLY what it is now.

You have no data, so you have to guess... Which is just lame.

Thats not math then, its a numbers guessing game.

Just like raiding in TOR atm.

Agreed. Those are usually people that got their feelings hurt because they got called on their poor play, or removed from a group because of it.

 

They don't want parsing now because they might not get carried anymore.

And there is the real reson you guys want a combat log, not to improve yourselves, but to kick people you deem unworthy. You said it yourself.

Actually, as someone pointed out previously, all of the analogies that have been presented in this thread have been pretty horrific in hitting their target. Analogies are historically one of the worst ways to make a point because few things are apples to apples even in the same environment/context let alone when you start trying to compare a car w/ air conditioning to a DPS meter in an MMO.

Worst ananlogy so far ive seen was comparing EQ1 70 man raiding to hardcore raiding of today.

These people are no longer like minded players...that is hard for you to grasp?

 

Also, stop being a victim.

I'm not a victim. I bought this game and am playing it the way it came out of the box. I am succeeding, and I am having fun.

Your refusal to acknowledge how add-ons like this have a negative impact on a community shows me that you do not argue in good faith, that you argue with an agenda, and that you are incapable of seeing something from another person's point of view.

Which is exactly the reason someone like you shouldn't have access to a combat parser in a social game.

I have clearly stated many times that I see the mathematical advantages to using a DPS parser.

I have clearly stated I see the advantages to parser and combat logs when it comes to determining what has transpired in a combat scenario to cause a whipe.

I have conceded these things as being beneficial

They are beneficial at the cost of a civil community. Your refusal to recognize that is the glaring reason you will never win this argument with me.

And there is the real reson you guys want a combat log, not to improve yourselves, but to kick people you deem unworthy. You said it yourself.

Kick or try help em to improve, depends what goals your guild is set on to and in which time frame. Using meters is totally optional, you just have to find like minded people.

Which is EXACTLY what it is now.

 

You have no data, so you have to guess... Which is just lame.

This is why its considered a GAME. And you can say that guessing is a feature of it which makes things more difficult, which you guys want anyway.

And there is the real reson you guys want a combat log, not to improve yourselves, but to kick people you deem unworthy. You said it yourself.

No I didn't. I've stated the reasons I want one.

I'm saying the reason that you DON'T want one is that you're afraid you won't get carried anymore. And the fact that you're claiming I want to kick people, when I've stated the exact opposite, just confirms your fear.

You're don't want to see data because you think it will make you look bad, and so you want that data restricted, even though the data itself has many valid proper uses.

I'm not a victim. I bought this game and am playing it the way it came out of the box. I am succeeding, and I am having fun.

 

Your refusal to acknowledge how add-ons like this have a negative impact on a community shows me that you do not argue in good faith, that you argue with an agenda, and that you are incapable of seeing something from another person's point of view.

 

Which is exactly the reason someone like you shouldn't have access to a combat parser in a social game.

 

I have clearly stated many times that I see the mathematical advantages to using a DPS parser.

 

I have clearly stated I see the advantages to parser and combat logs when it comes to determining what has transpired in a combat scenario to cause a whipe.

 

I have conceded these things as being beneficial

 

They are beneficial at the cost of a civil community. Your refusal to recognize that is the glaring reason you will never win this argument with me.

YOu said that people want meters to show their Epeen, i have a picture that there is no such person posted on this thread yet. Just cause very bad guilds or pugs used it wrong doesnt make it an very useful tool for majority of raiders.

This is why its considered a GAME. And you can say that guessing is a feature of it which makes things more difficult, which you guys want anyway.

I would rather remove people from the raid for a reason instead of a hunch.

even though the data itself has many valid proper uses.

Like?

It all comes down to calling people out you deem unworthy in a video game that we play for recreation. There are other ways of finding out if the players are not carrying their weight. One simple one being "What spec are you and what is your DPS rotation"

Oh, by the way...

Combat logs are coming. They were in beta and they will be back. Bioware has already confirmed this several times.

The game should never have launched without one.

Like?

 

It all comes down to calling people out you deem unworthy in a video game that we play for recreation. There are other ways of finding out if the players are not carrying their weight. One simple one being "What spec are you and what is your DPS rotation"

So what is best spec, what is best rotation, are they actually using that rotation to the max, what if they lie?

Like?

 

It all comes down to calling people out you deem unworthy in a video game that we play for recreation. There are other ways of finding out if the players are not carrying their weight. One simple one being "What spec are you and what is your DPS rotation"

Who do you ask...? Everyone..? So now you're interviewing everyone in the raid to try to determine if they are playing poorly instead of actually RAIDING..!!!

Good job there, mister raid leader, sir...!

With metrics, you KNOW where the weakness lies... You don't have to guess. You know who needs help, or if they are beyond help. You might be surprised. It might actually turn out to be that guy with good gear who knows all of the pat answers to the questions you asked, but is just slacking off that day because he is bored.

It usually isn't what you think right away.

No I didn't. I've stated the reasons I want one.

 

I'm saying the reason that you DON'T want one is that you're afraid you won't get carried anymore. And the fact that you're claiming I want to kick people, when I've stated the exact opposite, just confirms your fear.

 

You're don't want to see data because you think it will make you look bad, and so you want that data restricted, even though the data itself has many valid proper uses.

Are you even listening to what people are saying? You keep coming back to the fact that we are personally afraid of being excluded from content based on a parse.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't want to see you linked parse in every /1 general chat.

I don't want to see the constant bantering back and forth that occurs when it comes to an exposed underperforming member in /1 chat

I don't want to get a group for a flashpoint, after 1 pull, a parse posted and vote kick ensues to kick the lowest performing member and now I have to wait 15 minutes to find a replacement to continue.

I don't want to see "LF1 Sage DPS, must be Balance specced" for an encounter.

In short - I don't want the SOCIAL CESS-POOL these tools create, so that you can have your epeen measuring stick, in a game that doesn't require it, because people are clearing NM content every single day on servers all across America.

 

In short - I don't want the SOCIAL CESS-POOL these tools create, so that you can have your epeen measuring stick, in a game that doesn't require it, because people are clearing NM content every single day on servers all across America.

Because NM modes are made so easy due the fact that you cant tune your raid group for harder content atm, but in few months when we have those logs, many people may lose their raid spots or try to get better. Or you know, do content that is more suitable for their skilllevel after harder content is added, with people that are mind liked and equally skilled/dedicated.

Are you even listening to what people are saying? You keep coming back to the fact that we are personally afraid of being excluded from content based on a parse.

 

That couldn't be further from the truth.

Actually, it is you guys who keep coming back to the notion that we want metrics so that we can boot people, when no one supporting logs has actually said that.

I think the truth is in the fact that you worry about that so much... likely because it has happened to you.

But why would you want to raid with people who would do that, anyway...? Are you so desperate to raid with them that you think they should take you along, even though you don't hold up to their standards of play..? You're afraid that they might boot you if they could only see how bad you're playing...?

Solution is simple. If you don't want to be judged on your performance... You play with people who don't care about your performance.

Don't keep trying to obscure everyone's performance just because you're afraid to see the results of your own.