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[class balance] kill two birds with one stone

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[class balance] kill two birds with one stone

JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
10.04.2014 , 03:34 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Not really, they were better, but that's because Mercs were completely broken. Uncleansable DoTs are necessary for a class that gets about half its damage from DoTs with a cooldown longer than cleanse. There is no effective counter-play for a Madness Sorc if all other Sorcs can cleanse. In that game Creeping Terror and Crushing Darkness become useless.

I really wish people would stop. Madness DoTs do over time what the burst specs do in 3-4 GCDs. DoTs are already easier to heal through, DoTs already give you a lot more time to react than direct damage powers. Direct Damage attacks don't have an off button, there is no reason DoTs should.

And before people rehash the same specious arguments, DoTs are just as affected by defensive cooldowns as direct damage attacks of the same damage type. DoT have NO advantage over instant direct damage powers. Uncleansable is near essential unless you are going to shift the damage profile away from three DoTs, two with significant cooldowns compared to cleanse.
Why is it near essential, when madness sorc was one of the most popular dps classes in 4s before all those buffs and uncleansability? CT and CD weren't useless back then, and they wouldn't be made useless if the change was reverted.

1) Madness got buffed and buffed for pve balance reasons to the point of being very overtuned in pvp. It now needs a tone down. It's not gonna be a nerf to damage, cause the devs obviously want it to be competitive in pve. Making dots cleanseable again is a good way to nerf for pvp without affecting pve.

2. CT and CD together do not comprise 50% of madness's damage.

3. There is counter-play to dot cleansing:

a. Stunning the sorc

b. Ranging the sorc from the potential cleanse target via knockbacks, pulls etc.

c. Putting CT and CD on targets other than a sorc. Hitting cleanse if you see dots on yourself is easy, but it takes considerably more effort to check a teammate's debuffs.

d. Baiting a cleanse of dots, followed by a WW on the healer or someone else, which the sorc is then unable to cleanse for the first few seconds due to its CD. This isn't a big deal, but it's there.

4. Obviously, only other sorcs can do it. That means that if the other team doesn't have a sorc, there is no change. Cleanse costs a GCD, and is force-negative (or about force-neutral if heal spec). Are you worried that if both teams run double sorc, then nothing will ever die because they will be constantly cleansing each other? Because that was never a problem before. This point is especially true considering that TTK has been steadily decreasing, and matches rarely go to acid anymore.

5. Raises skill cap. Objectively good.

6. Slightly buffs the underpowered lightning and healing specs by giving them the ability to once again have a counter to a spec whose users now litter the warzones and arenas. Nerfs an OP spec and buffs UP ones (particularly corruption).

7. Makes no sense that sins, ops, and snipers can remove force dots, but a sorcerer can't.

8. I'd be willing to compromise and make only CT uncleanseable. And/or increase the CD on cleanse, though idk if that'd be bad for pve. If so, lengthen the base cleanse CD and add CDR to the cleanse talent.

JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
10.04.2014 , 03:39 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Qwurdilu View Post
Try to outheal doublemadness and tell me again how easy that is.
This guy did over 4,3k hps in one round and yet they failed to win. And they didnt die because of hardswitches.
(http://www.twitch.tv/itchyeyes05/c/4866555)

Ranked meta changed a lot. Nowadays best thing you can do is run dotspecc and chainmezz healer.

herp derp
This.

Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
So we want one healer to be able to deal with two DPS character's output? Seriously?

And you still didn't address the point. Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal. You just melt.
........... you obviously don't even ranked.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.04.2014 , 04:31 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Qwurdilu View Post
right. You also had a chance back then against double smash. Uncleansable madness is OP dmg. period. You try to protect your class, but youre not doing yourself a favor. Its OP right now, and something will change. Wheter its the dmg from the dots get reduced or they get cleansable. You choose. Id like to see them beeing cleansable, so good players can excel and protect them.
Of course, it will change. 3.0 is right around the corner. A lot will change then. It's not going to be by returning a power tuned for PvE to PvP. Sorry.
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.04.2014 , 04:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterSLC View Post
This.



........... you obviously don't even ranked.
You obviously didn't address the argument.

But to address yours. You're right, I don't group ranked. Even after joining a PvP guild, there's just not enough activity when I play to do it. I'm sorry, but I'm never going to agree to balancing all PvP around the least conducted activity.
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JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
10.04.2014 , 04:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
You obviously didn't address the argument.

But to address yours. You're right, I don't group ranked. Even after joining a PvP guild, there's just not enough activity when I play to do it. I'm sorry, but I'm never going to agree to balancing all PvP around the least conducted activity.
You didn't have an argument. Arguments need warrants and evidence, not just claims. "Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal" is a claim. One that has already been refuted. And speaking of not addressing arguments, I have an 8 point post awaiting your response.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.04.2014 , 04:58 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterSLC View Post
1) Madness got buffed and buffed for pve balance reasons to the point of being very overtuned in pvp. It now needs a tone down. It's not gonna be a nerf to damage, cause the devs obviously want it to be competitive in pve. Making dots cleanseable again is a good way to nerf for pvp without affecting pve.
It's actually pretty easy to tune for PvP without touching PvE. One of the first would be to remove the bonus damage to Force Lightning from Creeping Terror against players. That wasn't necessary, or even asked for. I'm not opposed to a draw down of the damage. Just do it in a smart way that doesn't allow a blatantly OP power.

Quote:
2. CT and CD together do not comprise 50% of madness's damage.
Yes, but if you have to reapply Affliction all the time, which doesn't even damage on application, you will lose about that much damage.

Quote:
3. There is counter-play to dot cleansing:

a. Stunning the sorc

b. Ranging the sorc from the potential cleanse target via knockbacks, pulls etc.

c. Putting CT and CD on targets other than a sorc. Hitting cleanse if you see dots on yourself is easy, but it takes considerably more effort to check a teammate's debuffs.

d. Baiting a cleanse of dots, followed by a WW on the healer or someone else, which the sorc is then unable to cleanse for the first few seconds due to its CD. This isn't a big deal, but it's there.
I'll give you C. and D. But I think you know perfectly well that the two CC option you note are not going to be used to avoid cleansing. They might occasionally have that effect by serendipity, but I don't see that being a conscious choice.

Quote:
4. Obviously, only other sorcs can do it. That means that if the other team doesn't have a sorc, there is no change. Cleanse costs a GCD, and is force-negative (or about force-neutral if heal spec). Are you worried that if both teams run double sorc, then nothing will ever die because they will be constantly cleansing each other? Because that was never a problem before. This point is especially true considering that TTK has been steadily decreasing, and matches rarely go to acid anymore.
I worry about DPS sorcerers having the power at all. In PvE, I see why all healer classes allow their DPS specs to cleanse. It's needed to take the pressure off of healers and puts some skill cap into DPS. My fear is that the second we're allowed to cleanse again, people will realize what they should have been doing all along.

I don't actually object to Healing Sorcerers being able to cleanse. That would be a nice buff to them. Then maybe they would have some reason to be taken instead of Operatives/Scoundrels. But no one wants just the healers to have cleanse in PvP. Folks want the DPS specs to be able to do it. So they can keep taking their Ops/Scoundrels for heals while leaving a DPS to deal with Madness Sorc/Sins.

Quote:
5. Raises skill cap. Objectively good.
Not unless it's more nuanced than simply allowing cleanses to work. I think if cleanses worked on Affliction/Discharge only, then that would actually raise the skill cap. That would be interesting. In the double madness comp you describe that would allow cleanse to lower damage by a fair amount.

But then, that's what I get so annoyed by these threads. No one wants it to be reasonable, they just want to go back to the bad old days.

Quote:
6. Slightly buffs the underpowered lightning and healing specs by giving them the ability to once again have a counter to a spec whose users now litter the warzones and arenas. Nerfs an OP spec and buffs UP ones (particularly corruption).
As I said above, don't really have a problem with healers having it. Not needed for Lightning and won't change one bit their desirability. You know this.

Quote:
7. Makes no sense that sins, ops, and snipers can remove force dots, but a sorcerer can't.
They can. Not sure what you mean. Sorc, Sins, Ops and Snipers all have a purge.

Quote:
8. I'd be willing to compromise and make only CT uncleanseable. And/or increase the CD on cleanse, though idk if that'd be bad for pve. If so, lengthen the base cleanse CD and add CDR to the cleanse talent.
To sum up what I said above, either:

1) Give cleanse to Sorc/Sage HEALERS only; or
2) Allow Affliction/Discharge to be cleansable by all

IN ADDITION TO THE ABOVE,

1) Remove the bonus damage to Force Lightning for PvP. Not needed.
2) Consider upping the ICD on Crush Spirit (Spinning Strike reset proc)
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.04.2014 , 05:01 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterSLC View Post
You didn't have an argument. Arguments need warrants and evidence, not just claims. "Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal" is a claim. One that has already been refuted. And speaking of not addressing arguments, I have an 8 point post awaiting your response.
Ummm... you never have even, after multiple threads on the subject EVER addressed the ridiculously low cooldown on cleanse. Please don't try to act like you all have high minded argument in favor of this. Because really, it mostly sounds like sour grapes.

I have had the opportunity to play every single spec in the game. Not all in ranked, but a fair amount. Balance right now is very good IMO. There are some specs that could use tweaks here and there (both some nerfs to some and buffs to others), but major changes like reverting needed buffs isn't the way to go.

EDIT: In all honesty, this is an academic argument since we need to see what 3.0 looks like before we can evaluate what to do.
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HaoZhao's Avatar


HaoZhao
10.04.2014 , 05:03 PM | #28
I'm fine with cleansing affliction and the DOT from lightning charge, but cleansing creeping terror or crushing darkness is dirty pool and must not be allowed. DOTs attacked to cooldown abilities should remain uncleansable.

JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
10.04.2014 , 05:29 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Ummm... you never have even, after multiple threads on the subject EVER addressed the ridiculously low cooldown on cleanse. Please don't try to act like you all have high minded argument in favor of this. Because really, it mostly sounds like sour grapes.

I have had the opportunity to play every single spec in the game. Not all in ranked, but a fair amount. Balance right now is very good IMO. There are some specs that could use tweaks here and there (both some nerfs to some and buffs to others), but major changes like reverting needed buffs isn't the way to go.

EDIT: In all honesty, this is an academic argument since we need to see what 3.0 looks like before we can evaluate what to do.
Huh? I mentioned that its CD could stand to be longer in my post, and I've mentioned it in the past... I play every class and spec too. Madness is OP. And it wasn't a needed buff. But you're right about 3.0 unfortunately.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
10.04.2014 , 05:45 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterSLC View Post
Huh? I mentioned that its CD could stand to be longer in my post, and I've mentioned it in the past... I play every class and spec too. Madness is OP. And it wasn't a needed buff. But you're right about 3.0 unfortunately.
You're right, you mentioned the cooldown.

But Madness most definitely needed the buffs. I think revisionist history has it that Madness was always this great spec. It was viable, but only because the other Sorc specs were terrible. The Sorc class rep quit in protest and it was a hard fight to get the buffs we did.

I'll admit that they went a bit far. Not "OMG OP" far, but too far. Like I said, the bonus to Force Lightning from CT was an odd buff and not justified in PvP. Although I remember when it went live and I melted a Deception Sin with it. He seemed so sad.
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