Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game. By versatile I'm meaning a tank class that can fill a competitive roll in most aspects of the game as tank spec & Dps spec (pve and pvp).

As an example most would be able to relate to I'll use a druid from WoW as a example of what I'm interrested in finding. I played a druid in WoW, a setup in playstyle I am always drawn to in many mmo's before and after wow (the jack of all trades type class). The druid I could roll as heals, tank, dps, and caster. If I got bored with 1 aspect of the class or guild needs a different roll filled, I could switch spec and not have to grind another toon to max level to fill that role.

Due to this particular time in my life I'm very limited in play time and unable to experiement with each toon enough to find out which fills the rolls I'm always interrested in playing most. This is why I'm hitting up you veterans, hoping to pick your brain to find a match or near match to this problem of mine.

So with no more ado, here are my 4 questions.

Again this only applies to Tank class toons since tanking is my main roll love.

Tank spec:

1) Which tank specced class proves more to be a Bonus rather than hHindrance in any given pug PvP Warzone?

2) Which tank specced class proves more to be most useful/desired in end game PvE raiding? Jug/Guard first, PT/Vanguard 2nd I understand from research. Sound correct?

DPS spec:

3) Which Tank class specced as DPS proves more to be a Bonus rather than a Hindrance in any given pug PvP Warzone?

4) Which Tank class specced as DPS proves to be most useful/desired in end game PvE raiding?

Thanks in advance.

People might correct me, but I think you're looking for guardian. They're the best PVE tank at the moment, you can respec to focus/smashmonkey spec, which is best in class in PVP, and if you want to DPS in PVE, vigilance is very good.

Thanks for your input. I was hoping Guard/Jug weren't tops for most aspects of playability since they were widely considered undisputed strongest in end game tanking.

I figured the difference in class types might be far beneficial in various ways such as Shadow perhaps great as node capping due to stealth, perhaps Vanguard best at guarding nodes w/ healer due to aoe streangth (these are just random guesses from reading online, I have no personal experience here). How valuable these differences are and what each tank class brings to variety of aspects of the game I'll just have to watch and see while playing.

Again, thanks for your input. Looks like guard/jug is closest to Jack of all trades Tank class.

I

shadows are the best tank node takers/guards because of utility abilties like stealth alongside great defensive cooldowns. sentinals are more stable because of their heavy aromur alongside the def cooldowns they have.

Guardians not sentinels.

If I focus at the main question:

"Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game. By versatile I'm meaning a tank class that can fill a competitive roll in most aspects of the game as tank spec & Dps spec (pve and pvp)."

There's one(+ mirror obviously) tank class that got access to all of these things(in one way/spec or Another):

- Melee shield+absorb.

- Melee defence.

- Melee dps.

- Semi ranged dps.

- Instant "heal button"(+ "dps button" + "reduce damage button + more).

- Melee Self heals, possible each 4.5 sec.

- Ranged damage ability that also heals(dependant on procs).

- Force pull.

- AoE "force push".

- Stealth.

- Stealth CC.

- Phase shift.

- ... and more of course.

All 3 tank classes got their own unique flavour - but should be the Shadow/Assasin that in itself "mirror" most/all class roles + sub roles(regarding the "healing role", it's about self-only heals, that ofc can't compare with a "real" healer class).

Shadow/Assasin: The most versatile tank class in the game.

At second Place I'd say the VG/PT, that got in-melee ranged dps and defence/shield AND consistent(spamable) ranged dps(granted, not very high - but ineed alot better then "fluff" - with some kind of ranged "burst" to go along with that).

I'm one of those individuals that love, and can't help myself, to have each and every class hybrid/hybridish. And I become bored by always "following protocol" - Thus having fun on my VG(and doing quite ok) using it like a stealthish ranged dps(tank-dps hybrid). Fully aware of "it's not meant to be played like that" and that I'd be able to tank and dps alot better if I had focus on "be-in-your-face", and not play as a mainly ranged class.

Over time, I truly do my best when having fun - and gaming to me, equal having fun most of the time. Oh and no, I'm not a noob. ;]

For me the answer to all the OP questions is Jugg/Guardian.

Shadows/Assassins are suffering balance issues as both tank and dps so pretty much as it is now any shadow/sin in your group can be considered a hindrance, except *maybe* for PVP because of situational use of stealth and CC's and kinda nice burst dmg as a dps.

Powertech/Vanguard is suffering balance issues as a dps, specially on PVP since they have no burst at all and thats pretty much the main thing you are looking for in a dps on pvp. As dps for pve they do "good enough" but they stay on the low end of the dps right now without pretty much any other real advantage to the raid. As tanks for both pvp and pve they are very good tanks but as of now juggs are better for numerous reasons.

Juggs/Guardians are awesome both as dps and tanks, as dps they have one of the best burst and aoe specs in the game (smash spec) which is one of the best dps you can have in pvp and very good in raids for fights where you need either burst dmg or good AoEs, also since they have really awesome cds and use heavy armor they can hold themselves quite well in danger situations as an extra tank for a few secs (like holding a boss or something while a healer tries to get a tank up after he died for example), the other dps tree is very good single target dps. As tanks they are super buffed to a ridiculous level since they have the best cds in game and *also* best passive mitigation between all tanks, the ideal composition for a raid would for sure have 2 jugg tanks on it.

Shadow/Assasin: The most versatile tank class in the game.

You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

PvP + tank: All 3 can perform reasonably well, though Guardians are, de facto, the best main tanks whereas Shadows are only really node Guardians

PvE + tank: Shadows are at a substantial disadvantage because of massive spikiness problems; VGs and Guardians can both perform well, but, once again, Guardians are, de facto, the best tanks outright thanks to being borked as hell at the moment (tied with VGs for mean mitigation, best damage profile, best CD suite, best utility, all tanks have the same functional AoE and ST damage/threat, and easiest to play to boot)

PvP + DPS: VGs are pretty much worthless; Shadows are pretty good as Infiltration thanks to burst DPS; Guardians are amazing as either Vigi or Focus, with Focus being almost mindbogglingly simple for how well it performs

PvE + DPS: Once again, VGs are in a very sad state because they're lagging behind average DPS a fair deal; Shadows are in a worse state since they're lagging behind a *lot*; Guardians are in a very good place because, even if they're not explicitly top tier DPS, they've still got very good DPS that only lags behind the top tier by small amount.

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

So, to answer the OP's question, it's Guardians, not Shadows or even Shadow tanks.

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.

"the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling"

I think/hope you'd agree with me, that for some people thats not the case. At least after that you've read my post.

I understand your point of view Kitru, not sure you see/understand mine though.

I've not answered all things, because I might agree with several, or just not see the relevance in others - And when posting this post, it might be more of "a wall of text" then what I'd like it to be(hm, or rather "novell/roman"). Thus cutting down on text. Also I'd like to Point out that English ain't my 1th language(I'm from over the pond - EU), and my "auto correct" ain't in English(and trying not to use it anyway) - thus, it's likely that my post have both grammar and spelling issues here and there. :]

Nope not ignoring, I suppose you skimmed the part where I pointed out what part I choose to answer(and that it's my perspective... well I might have made the mad decision to think everyone would understand this was my personal view)?

"If I focus at the main question:" - In response to:

""Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game... ..."

It's not only because of this reason, but it could be because of this very reason alone = Yes, stealth(and what follows with it, such as instant re-stealth, etc). This holds true to me(likely not everyones truth though), and that's what I partly choose to convey - My "truth". And yes one could argue that "well thats because you're a *****, that you'd think like that". Also one could argue that numbers don't lie(numbers/calculations/statistics/etc, well you know that stuff, you're quite good at :] ).

Actually even seemingly "true" numberers do "lie", but that might be a discussion for another time, but to hint towards what I might be babling about. I'll add that it would seem that no one could(well at least no one seem to have) taken account of all the possible variables. Of course if all possible varables/factors could be identified and measured - Yes then one could possibly say "these numbers don't lie". But we seem to be nowhere near a situation such as that.

One could argue that "but Kitru(+ other people) have taken account of enough relevant factors/variables to make Kitrus words kling with more then enough of truths/facts". And yeah, to a big degree, I'd agree with that. But it's not in my flavour(nor, as said, my "truth/facts") - not regarding the main question("first question" might be a bit more accurate though).

You see Kitru, it would seem that the shadows/asassins most strong side/thing, would be that "it's a "real" hybrid". In it's core, a hybrid. Of course all classes in SWtor to this date, could indeed be called hybrids. As one could see it, it's something of a core-thingy, regarding the classes of SWtor, all classes could spec relatively high in two different spec trees(two different roles). The shadow/assassin(and remembering that we discussing "of the tanks" and not "of all the classes") have core abilites that provide the shadow/assassin with choices well beyond two, three and even beyond four "roles". Obviously neither one of the two other tank classes ain't restricted to just "two roles" - but those tanks would seem to lack that "real hybrid" thingy. Which cut down on the possible amount of roles. Less roles one could say, would indicate less versatile.

I might mention that I'm not only thinking of the "holy Trinity" tank/healer/dps, nor the tank/healer/melee/range kind of roles. Thats a too limited way of seeing/thinking(my opinion ofc). I've played my fair amount of mmorpgs, but mainly I'd say that DAoC(Dark Age of Camelot, a large scale RvR/PvP game, with lots of PvE(although rather boring PvE now a days)) would be my "home". And ... where to begin... Hm, no lets not make this the "the never ending text of all times", hehe.

One word - STEALTH. Stealth in itself yield more roles or if you'd like, several more sub-roles. It yields so much more utility(especially more so, since the class Sh./As. already got melee dps, short range dps, semicaster some kind of ranged dps + being a tank + being a semi-sub selfhealing class).

What I suggest is: Think/go beyond the "how PvE/PvP is supposed to be played" - and think in term of "whats possible, or almost possible, in the game as a whole - PvP, PvE, exploration etc(and yet several extra things to reflect upon, if one so choose - As a example: socialization(PwP: Player with Player, eh)) - Before, now and later in the game".

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

This is, in my mind, very dependant upon perspective and thinking. I agree that your answer, indeed is your answer(and likely a fair number of other peoples perceived "correct answer").

Here's some of my thinking and perspective:

- Guardians suck at(even as a half semi) ranged dps(as in to be able to keep continuing the ranged dps from "real" range).

- Guardians suck at being able to have some kind of reliable selfheal(from the perspctive of being able to do it while in battle, say about 2 times each 10th second - with tank spec and someone who could play in a optimized way, one could think that it would be quite much more than about 2 times each 10th second(thinking of everything else that shadows/assassins could use, to get some instant/panic heal) - but I'll settle for 2/10th, lol well, compared to me, you know those numbers better, so I skipp trying to explain that further).

- Guardians suck at stealthing(thus not good at scouting, not good at "silent/unnoticed capping in PvP, not as good to use as a "explore-class", not good at gerilla/harrasing capabilites, ofc also because of lacking spammable ranged dps/cc ... etc ... etc).

- ... I could probably find a couple of more, but these would seem more then enough.

Thus "this" perspective rank the Guardian/Warrior last, as it's mostly resemble a "pure" melee-tank. The class VG/PT have largely the same problems, but not regarding the range(and thats pretty big, I'd say). Putting all things considered(and both of us seems far from mentioned "all things"), the VG/PT above Guardians/Warriors, with Shadow/Assassin at the top.

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.

I understand you see it as a gimmick, Phase Walk that is. For one such as myself, who quite like to explore places - Phase Walk could be deemed godsend(ofc the "gimmick" got other uses - although I acknowledge that PW lacks in several ways). I see what you ment with "stick to the things that *only* that class can do..."(etc) - I've learnt though, that even "common" and "stuff that other have/do" could(and often do) interact in quite a few "none obvious ways". Meaning that it's the unique compound that makes the Shadow/Asassin, that might matter a lot. Thus while making a list/chart might be a good idea and show/give some really good and relevant information - It's deemed "dangerous" to mainly have focus aimed at lists/charts/statistics/etc such thinking and testing often miss out on a lot of things. ... "Blinding facts"... yes indeed.

About what I should stick to... Wait - Did you just try to tell me how I should think, how I should reply, how I should hold my own views back and my way of formulate answers/thoughts/questions ain't acceptable?

Sorry, such a "hinthint" makes little to no sense to me(actually it does, but not in the way you'd imagine, I'd imagine).

Now, my time to take a try on a little education.

Ever heard of "polarization" Kitru?

If you indeed already do understand that concept Kitru, and at the same time want to help people understand more about this game(actually, if you're intresting in helping people in any setting/situation/enviroment(irl) really). Then you might see that you could have all the worlds possible "truths" and "facts" at your disposal - and still not be of any real extra help towards other people. Of course you ain't doing that bad of a job - I'm trying to make a Point.

If you aim at helping/informing/discussing with, people - And choose to, not to learn more constructive ways of communicating - you'd fail quite often to do just that - helping/informing/etc.

1. Please try to avoid to polarize the "first" thing you do. For any of average intelligence you'd appear to have low social skill, low empathy and seem somewhat self-important. Foremost though, you'll be hindering yourself of being able to communicate the information and "facts" that you may posses, to those people.

2. You might like to, not try to put words/meanings in the mouth of other people(I'll get back to this one).

3. Don't do what I partly did in these 3 Points(lol) - meaning try to avoid negations(not that you did overly much of that, but still a important thing to point out, in my view).

4. It could be a quite good idead for you, to avoid telling people what to do, and instead suggest an alternative idea/though/answer/etc.

5. This one relates to the other points. When/if you disagree with someones answer/statement/question/thoughts/etc - You'd both earn more respect(the constructive kind) and avoid to polarize your and the other individuals communication, thoughts and feelings. And if you instead more try to think of it as you didn't understand it from that certain individuals perpsective - And thus ask the individual his/hers line of thought/reasoning(then explain your trail of thought/reasoning). As a good educator or/and therapist often do. Rambling facts and trying to "shut down" other peoples thoughts, reasoning etc(polarization)... Well thats what many politicians(no matter what "political side" they might have) seem to do - I'd say it doesn't become you Kitru, I suspect that you're "better" than that.

6. If you to a larger degree allowed yourself to go beyond many of the already existing structures(be it in game, online, or in any "irl situation"), you might surprise yourself. Not saying it's always a good idea to do it, rather trying to say it could be constructive thing, to be open to other possible(and semingly impossible) possibilites. Facts could often be great to have and be of good use, as a base - Other times/sometimes obvious facts might blurr the larger picture.

7. I'm not suggesting you should "roll over", regarding discussions etc. More rather "try to be humble about it" and when/if you'd want to educate/inform in constructive manners - you'd might like to use functional "tools" to increase your ability to help/inform/educate/socialize with, people.

Lastly... I mean no slight Kitru. Simply put, I try to tell you stuff that I help people realize on a weekly basis(ofc not talking of SWtor in mind) - And I don't think you're all oblivious to what I've written.

Take care and grats to the position as representative for the class Shadow/Assassin.

You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

 

PvP + tank: All 3 can perform reasonably well, though Guardians are, de facto, the best main tanks whereas Shadows are only really node Guardians

PvE + tank: Shadows are at a substantial disadvantage because of massive spikiness problems; VGs and Guardians can both perform well, but, once again, Guardians are, de facto, the best tanks outright thanks to being borked as hell at the moment (tied with VGs for mean mitigation, best damage profile, best CD suite, best utility, all tanks have the same functional AoE and ST damage/threat, and easiest to play to boot)

PvP + DPS: VGs are pretty much worthless; Shadows are pretty good as Infiltration thanks to burst DPS; Guardians are amazing as either Vigi or Focus, with Focus being almost mindbogglingly simple for how well it performs

PvE + DPS: Once again, VGs are in a very sad state because they're lagging behind average DPS a fair deal; Shadows are in a worse state since they're lagging behind a *lot*; Guardians are in a very good place because, even if they're not explicitly top tier DPS, they've still got very good DPS that only lags behind the top tier by small amount.

 

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

 

So, to answer the OP's question, it's Guardians, not Shadows or even Shadow tanks.

 

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.

Just for your PvE Tank Section:

Guardians have some heavy disadvantages as a pve tank. They have the worst mean migation (look at dipsticks threat, look at combat logs..), As i shadow tank i need atleast about 200 hps less healing. So far i haven't seen a single parse with a pt/juggernaut who just needs 1,2 k healing on twh nim fight (same goes for 1,5k healing on dread guard fight....). Best parses from juggernaut tanks i know are 1,5k healing for twh nim fight.

Sin tanks also have the best single target dmg with powertechs (1,6 k dmg on thrasher) while Juggernauts (best parse 1,4 k) lack here aswell (I take thrasher fight here cause its the most consistent fight for tanks dealing dmg, but for styrak its the same best juggernaut parse: 1k, best sin and best powertech parse: 1,2k).

Next thing is that Juggernauts are the only tanking class which needs to be permanently in melee range to do good dmg. This is especially a heavy disadvantage for the dg nim fight (Kelsaras discharge....).

Next thing i want to know is why you think that Juggernauts have the best utility out of all 3 tanking classes. (Because of their aoe taunt Barrier?!). I don't think that can compete with the 5% healing increase, stealth rez.... from sin tanks for example.

Juggernauts have the best CDs i give you that but the difference between Juggernaut CDs and Sin Tanks CDs is not that big (50% m/r increase with a shorter cd for sin tank and a 2 sec invicibility for juggernauts) (25% dr with a 15% heal with a shorter cooldown for sin tank vs 40% dr for juggernauts) (saber reflect vs force shroud where saber reflect is better atm i think) (and Force Cloak vs nothing on jugger side there)

What do you mean with damage profile? Is that another word for spike dmg?

Overall:

Migation: Sin > Powertech > Juggernaut

Cooldowns: Juggernaut > Sin > Powertech

Utility: Sin > Juggernaut > Powertech

ST dmg: Sin = Powertech > Juggernaut

AOE dmg/threat: Probably Powertechs can deal the most dmg with death from above and all their other aoe abilitys, sin tanks have the most consistent threat with 2 low cooldown high threat aoe abilities and juggernauts can do a very good aoe with saber reflect aswell. I think here ist an overall tie.

I don't see why Juggernauts are the best tanks (maybe the are the worst but definitly not the best). Powertechs have a better migation and deal more dmg. The spike problem from sin tanks is 16 man nim exclusive (on 8 man nim i never encountered the problem so far), and i agree that this spike problem needs a fix for 16 man nim. But for every other operation,.... sith assassins are still the best tanks, with powertechs and juggs coming afterwards.

Edit: For your PvE dps part: single target dps of all 3 acs is more or less excactly on par. (Just compare the combat logs on styrak and thrasher for single target dps). None of the classes is rly lagging behind in single target dps (A dummy fight is not a real fight...). AOE-vise it is a little different, but for the encounters its not important to have 4 aoe dps.

You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

 

<..........>

There's one major flaw in your argument - you're debating from the point of current balance. It always changes in MMOs. Class versatility is determined by class design, first and foremost. If a person grabs a class that is strong/viable in multiple roles/playstyles now, but which doesn't sit right with them in regards to mechanics, dynamics and aesthetics, this person will be merely satisfied till the class gets brought down, or other classes get brought up to outshine it.

If the guy isn't aiming for hardcore play (which doesn't seem to be the case), he should roll a class that he's most comfortable with, and not the one that is the strongest at the moment. Shadow tanks only have trouble with some "1%" content (ergo, content which 1% of players even attempt). They do very well in regular PvP beyond "node guard" duties. Shadow damage is more than enough for casual/semi-casual PvE content, and is very efficient in PvP, due to high spikes. As far as Vanguards go, they're perfectly solid for PvE content as tanks, they're very flexible tactically in PvP (I'm still drooling at the thought of baseline hydraulic overrides each time I fire up my PT). Damage - the 4-button spec got nerfed. Prototype/Tactics is solid. Doesn't parse as well as Marauders, but enough for casual/semicasual pve, and does well enough in regular PvP thanks to solid survivability and utility. Not to mention several viable PvP hybrids.

TL: DR version - all tank-capable classes are perfectly viable for non-hardcore playstyles, and are fully able to shine in the right hands. Balance in MMOs always changes, and the guy should go for the class that he's comfortable with, and not the one that is the strongest right now.

Additionally (for the OP), I also want to say that, after levelling all tank classes in tank specs (Guardian twice - 1.0 and 2.0 versions), I can assure the OP that the Shadow is the easiest one to solo heroic content, to solo PvP and to level with.

Guardians have some heavy disadvantages as a pve tank.

Let me break these down for you.

They have the worst mean migation (look at dipsticks threat, look at combat logs..), As i shadow tank i need atleast about 200 hps less healing.

In the current state of the game, mean mitigation means absolutely *nothing*, and, even then, Guardians are tied with VGs. Shadows have *always* had the highest mean mitigation, nor did I say that they never did. However, at this point in time, it's not really an advantage.

Sin tanks also have the best single target dmg with powertechs (1,6 k dmg on thrasher) while Juggernauts (best parse 1,4 k) lack here aswell

I'd be *really* curious to see these because everything I've seen puts all 3 of the tanks within 100 DPS of each other. Pretty much the *only* thing that's well balanced between the tanks at the moment is damage/threat.

Next thing is that Juggernauts are the only tanking class which needs to be permanently in melee range to do good dmg. This is especially a heavy disadvantage for the dg nim fight (Kelsaras discharge....).

Actually, VGs need to be in melee a *lot*. Stockstrike is their bread and butter. Without it, their damage takes a *massive* dump. In fact, *all* tanks need to be in melee constantly in order to not have substantially decreased damage/threat. Shadows and VG simply have less diminished effect when at short range (Shadows less than either VGs or Guardians but they still take a loss without PA from DS).

Of course, as a tank, you're not really spending any/much time *at* short range (the *only* time I've seen it be particularly useful is when tanking trash with knockbacks: you can stand back at short range and the knockback will never happen). At best, it's a minute disadvantage to not have short range functionality (or a minute advantage to have it).

Next thing i want to know is why you think that Juggernauts have the best utility out of all 3 tanking classes. (Because of their aoe taunt Barrier?!). I don't think that can compete with the 5% healing increase, stealth rez.... from sin tanks for example.

Phase Walk is worthless, which means that Shadow's Shelter is as well. It *would* be decent were the implementation on Phase Walk not completely and utterly terrible. Stealth rez, for a tank, isn't particularly useful since you should be *tanking*. It's actually a *lot* less useful on a tank than on a DPS or healer because of this.

As to Guardians, the AoE taunt shield is a *massive* advantage (albeit one that I've yet to see many Guardians actually capitalize on, which is strange since it's a *really* easy thing to capitalize on). Any time there is AoE damage, the Guardian can reduce it by a decent amount, and they can do it at pretty much *every* AoE damage interval thanks to the 45 second CD. Guardian Leap for the damage reduction/threat drop has a lot of usefulness as well (once again, not one used all that often but can be *really* easily bounced back from with Force Leap).

Guardians have a *definitely* edge up because their utility is actually *designed well*. Phase Walk is worthless thanks to its design, and stealth rez on a tank is of incredibly questionable value.

Juggernauts have the best CDs i give you that but the difference between Juggernaut CDs and Sin Tanks CDs is not that big (50% m/r increase with a shorter cd for sin tank and a 2 sec invicibility for juggernauts) (25% dr with a 15% heal with a shorter cooldown for sin tank vs 40% dr for juggernauts) (saber reflect vs force shroud where saber reflect is better atm i think) (and Force Cloak vs nothing on jugger side there)

Deflection doesn't pack 25% F/T resistance and the "longer CD" is only 30 seconds longer. Considering the relevant times that you *want* to use Deflection/Saber Ward, the 30 seconds longer actually doesn't mean *anything* because those cycles are long enough that the 30 seconds don't actually *matter*.

If you're comparing Battle Readiness to Warding Call, you better be ready to bring in Enure (which you seem to have forgotten). Warding Call actually reduces damage by *more* than Battle Readiness (BR is 40% DR to K/E but only ~30% reduction to I/E damage), and Enure provides a *lot* more than Battle Readiness does since Enure provides double the effective hp immediately and 50% more over the entire duration (heal v. temp hp is actually a comparatively pointless comparison: the abilities are used for short term hp increases; Battle Readiness heals you whereas Enure provides you a cushion of hp for you to *receive* heals; in both cases, before the ability runs out, you should be at full health). On top of that, the fact that Enure and Warding Call are *separate* abilities increases their value since you can choose to get *either* the hp cushion *or* the damage reduction. Shadows have to choose one or the other (and it often ends up just being "damage reduction").

What do you mean with damage profile? Is that another word for spike dmg?

Incoming damage profile refers to the chances of the relevant attack resolutions to occur and the comparative effectiveness of said attack resolutions. It's a more specific way of saying "spikiness". Guardians have a *really* smooth incoming damage profile, just like VGs. That's a *big* feather in their cap.

Migation: Sin > Powertech > Juggernaut

Cooldowns: Juggernaut > Sin > Powertech

Utility: Sin > Juggernaut > Powertech

ST dmg: Sin = Powertech > Juggernaut

AOE dmg/threat: Probably Powertechs can deal the most dmg with death from above and all their other aoe abilitys, sin tanks have the most consistent threat with 2 low cooldown high threat aoe abilities and juggernauts can do a very good aoe with saber reflect aswell. I think here ist an overall tie.

Let's break this down by actually adding *more* than just the categories you mentioned and then forgot about while adding a bit more information to them.

Mean mitigation (negligible importance in the current state of the game; healers are all more than capable of handling maintenance healing indefinitely)

Shadow > VG >=Guardian (VGs and Guardians are so close they might as well be equal; the value slides depending upon the magnitude of incoming DPS because the Guardian absorb shield is a flat value)

Spikiness (massive importance in the current state of the game)

VG >= Guardian > Shadow (VGs are *ever* so slightly smoother but not to any extent that actually makes it noticeable or have an appreciable effect; Shadows are *worlds* behind here)

CDs (huge importance)

Guardian > Shadow > VG (VGs are a lot worse off than the other two, but it's not really a "close call" between Guardians and Shadows at the moment; the Guardian CD suite is absurd given current content)

Utility (moderate importance)

Guardian > Shadow > VG (Shadows would be tied for Guardians were it not for the fact that they're *tanks* for stealth rez and Phase Walk was implemented in pretty much the worse way imaginable)

ST damage (moderate importance)

Shadow = VG >= Guardian (Shadows and VGs have a *slightly* edge up on Guardians, if that; the major difference is whether there are forced tank swaps, which will drop Shadow and Guardian DPS by a significant factor but not affect VGs appreciably)

ST threat (moderate-heavy importance)

Shadow = VG = Guardian (Guardian threat gets bumped up because they've got excellent high threat abilities)

AoE damage (moderate importance)

Shadow > Guardian > VG (Shadows have Force Breach and Slow Time; Guardians have Force Sweep and Guardian Slash, both of which got buffed *massively*, on top of Saber Reflect; VGs have the HiB cleave which is negigible, Mortar Volley which is on a 1 min CD but can't be really effectively used while already in combat thanks to the minimum range, and Pulse Cannon, which is on a longer CD than any of the other tank CDs; for those AoEs *not* on CDs, Cyclone Slash is the best by *far* thanks to having the lowest comparative cost and talent buffs, followed by Explosive Surge which is better than default but still expensive as hell, and Whirling Blow is the worst because it has next to no talent support *and* has disgustingly high cost)

AoE threat (moderate importance)

Guardian >= Shadow > VG (the ranking depends upon the situation; for trash where you need snap AoE threat across a large area, *nothing* beats Saber Reflect; for closely packed enemy groups, it's pretty much equivalent all around; VGs are at a *slight* disadvantage because they don't have appreciable high threat effects, whereas the AoEs for Guardians and Shadows both have improved threat generation)

When you properly explain the relevant capabilities, Guardians are friggin' *amazing*. In the most important categories (spikiness and CDs), Guardians are either the best or tied for it. For the least important one (mean mitigation), they're tied for the worst, not that it really means anything because mean mitigation means *nothing* any more. For the areas of moderate importance, they've got a definite leg up in one category (utility) because their utility is actually designed well and the differences for the others (ST/AoE damage/threat) are so minute that they don't really matter.

But for every other operation,.... sith assassins are still the best tanks, with powertechs and juggs coming afterwards.

I'd be *very* curious to see how you think Shadows are the best tanks for all non-NiM content, unless you only ever consider running content in top tier gear. If you're running content in gear *appropriate for it*, the spikiness issue is *always* an issue. SM and HM S&V will *still* spike the living hell out of a Shadow, regardless of what you do, which, unless you've overgeared it, *is still* going to kill you.

The *only* reason people keep saying it's only a problem in the current top tier of content (whatever that top tier might be at the time) is because their viewpoint continually changes based upon the current BiS gearing. If you actually look at what the content is *designed* to be run in rather than what the BiS people are currently wearing, the problems are consistent and present for all group content at 55.

No matter what you're running, you'd actually be better off with a Guardian or VG at the moment. It might not be a major deal for HM FPs or SM Ops, but it's *still* something you have to look at. The higher difficulties don't create these problems out of whole cloth. They've been noted to exist the entire time. The higher difficulties exacerbated these problems in an exponential manner such that even the most *obtuse* people are now recognizing it on NiM when observant people have been noticing it for a good long while.

Edit: For your PvE dps part: single target dps of all 3 acs is more or less excactly on par. (Just compare the combat logs on styrak and thrasher for single target dps). None of the classes is rly lagging behind in single target dps (A dummy fight is not a real fight...). AOE-vise it is a little different, but for the encounters its not important to have 4 aoe dps.

Actually, I *have* compared the parses on Thrasher, though I'll admit I didn't look too closely at VGs (I mostly listened to the VG DPSers that I know about comparative performance). As it stands, Guardians edge out Shadows and VGs by about ~100. It's not massive "omg, this are be turrble!" but pulling 2.4-2.5k rather than 2.5-2.6k represents a noticeable decrease in damage dealt, especially when you consider that the 2.5-2.6k isn't actually top tier DPS.

Of course, I've never actually claimed to be a DPS expert. For DPS, I mostly act as an aggregate of the various people/posts/information I have access to rather than coming up with stuff on my own so I don't really guarantee said information to the same level as my tank info. It is nice to see that the comparative DPS levels between the 3 tank ACs is closer than I was lead to believe.

 

I'd be *really* curious to see these because everything I've seen puts all 3 of the tanks within 100 DPS of each other. Pretty much the *only* thing that's well balanced between the tanks at the moment is damage/threat.

I just analyzed the top parses from all the tank classes on hm styrak and hm thrasher fight from torparse. I always got the same results with the top parses from pt/sin while Juggernauts/Guardians seem to always lack 150-200 dps. When you can provide parses with about 1,6 k dmg on thrasher and 1,2k dmg on styrak for them, that would be nice, so far i did not find any.

Actually, VGs need to be in melee a *lot*. Stockstrike is their bread and butter. Without it, their damage takes a *massive* dump. In fact, *all* tanks need to be in melee constantly in order to not have substantially decreased damage/threat. Shadows and VG simply have less diminished effect when at short range (Shadows less than either VGs or Guardians but they still take a loss without PA from DS).

 

Of course, as a tank, you're not really spending any/much time *at* short range (the *only* time I've seen it be particularly useful is when tanking trash with knockbacks: you can stand back at short range and the knockback will never happen). At best, it's a minute disadvantage to not have short range functionality (or a minute advantage to have it).

Well at dg nim on heirad and ciphas phase you spend a lot of time running around and doing as much dmg from short range as you can(as you dont wanna get aoe dmg on the mdps or the other tank). I find that to be a rly important advantage for sin/vg on dg nim fight compared to juggs.

 

Phase Walk is worthless, which means that Shadow's Shelter is as well. It *would* be decent were the implementation on Phase Walk not completely and utterly terrible. Stealth rez, for a tank, isn't particularly useful since you should be *tanking*. It's actually a *lot* less useful on a tank than on a DPS or healer because of this.

 

As to Guardians, the AoE taunt shield is a *massive* advantage (albeit one that I've yet to see many Guardians actually capitalize on, which is strange since it's a *really* easy thing to capitalize on). Any time there is AoE damage, the Guardian can reduce it by a decent amount, and they can do it at pretty much *every* AoE damage interval thanks to the 45 second CD. Guardian Leap for the damage reduction/threat drop has a lot of usefulness as well (once again, not one used all that often but can be *really* easily bounced back from with Force Leap).

 

Guardians have a *definitely* edge up because their utility is actually *designed well*. Phase Walk is worthless thanks to its design, and stealth rez on a tank is of incredibly questionable value.

I dont see where Phase Walk is worthless. You can use it for tc, twh, dg, op9, tfb, Titan, thrasher, Operation chief, olok, cartel warlords and styrak. You can use it partially for dash. You can not rly use it for kephess.

For tc: Update it during laser.

For the writing horror: Update it after killing jealous male. Healers can run out before they cleanse

For dread guards: update it during ciphas phase or while having force leech. Healers can aswell run out when they see red circles.

For Kephess: You can't rly place it in the middle of the area, (blue Tank circle....) you can instead try to place one on the sides which will give the Phase Walk atleast some uptime.

For op9: Just place it in the middle.

For Terror from beyond: Place it at the entrance update it when you come back.

For Dash'rode: You can place one in the beginning and another one during the fight but it won't have full uptime for the healers, so here it's just partially useful.

For Titan: Update it after Launch.

For Thrasher: Update it after you killed snipers.

For Operations Chief: Will hold long enough as Boss fight is not so long.

For Olok: Place it in the middle you have always time to update it.

For Cartel Warlords: Force Speed away from sunder, place Phase Walk where your healers stand and continue normal kiting.

For Styrak: Place it at the skull where the big apparition spawns. You have time to update it.

Thats still 11/13 bosses where you can use it very good and 2 where you can use it for some time during the fight. It seems we have a different understanding of "worthless".

 

Deflection doesn't pack 25% F/T resistance and the "longer CD" is only 30 seconds longer. Considering the relevant times that you *want* to use Deflection/Saber Ward, the 30 seconds longer actually doesn't mean *anything* because those cycles are long enough that the 30 seconds don't actually *matter*..

Yes i forgot to write the 25% f/t resistance down. Most of the time in nim you will use your Defensive Cooldowns on cd and not in cycles as most of the attacking sequences are on way faster cycles (30 s most of the time) (Except for Grenade and Terminate.).

 

If you're comparing Battle Readiness to Warding Call, you better be ready to bring in Enure (which you seem to have forgotten). Warding Call actually reduces damage by *more* than Battle Readiness (BR is 40% DR to K/E but only ~30% reduction to I/E damage), and Enure provides a *lot* more than Battle Readiness does since Enure provides double the effective hp immediately and 50% more over the entire duration (heal v. temp hp is actually a comparatively pointless comparison: the abilities are used for short term hp increases; Battle Readiness heals you whereas Enure provides you a cushion of hp for you to *receive* heals; in both cases, before the ability runs out, you should be at full health). On top of that, the fact that Enure and Warding Call are *separate* abilities increases their value since you can choose to get *either* the hp cushion *or* the damage reduction. Shadows have to choose one or the other (and it often ends up just being "damage reduction").

Yes i forgot Enure aswell you can change my not so big difference in a recognizable difference. The thing you forgot is the use of Battle Readiness as a cooldown that helps to lower the pressure on the healer as he can heal or rez other perons while you heal yourself and reduce the incoming dmg and increase your self heal. Enure is just providing a lot of hp but is not rly lowering the Overall pressure on the healer.

 

Incoming damage profile refers to the chances of the relevant attack resolutions to occur and the comparative effectiveness of said attack resolutions. It's a more specific way of saying "spikiness". Guardians have a *really* smooth incoming damage profile, just like VGs. That's a *big* feather in their cap.

Ok i did understand it correctly then.

 

Let's break this down by actually adding *more* than just the categories you mentioned and then forgot about while adding a bit more information to them.

 

Mean mitigation (negligible importance in the current state of the game; healers are all more than capable of handling maintenance healing indefinitely)

Shadow > VG >=Guardian (VGs and Guardians are so close they might as well be equal; the value slides depending upon the magnitude of incoming DPS because the Guardian absorb shield is a flat value)

 

Spikiness (massive importance in the current state of the game)

VG >= Guardian > Shadow (VGs are *ever* so slightly smoother but not to any extent that actually makes it noticeable or have an appreciable effect; Shadows are *worlds* behind here)

 

CDs (huge importance)

Guardian > Shadow > VG (VGs are a lot worse off than the other two, but it's not really a "close call" between Guardians and Shadows at the moment; the Guardian CD suite is absurd given current content)

 

Utility (moderate importance)

Guardian > Shadow > VG (Shadows would be tied for Guardians were it not for the fact that they're *tanks* for stealth rez and Phase Walk was implemented in pretty much the worse way imaginable)

 

ST damage (moderate importance)

Shadow = VG >= Guardian (Shadows and VGs have a *slightly* edge up on Guardians, if that; the major difference is whether there are forced tank swaps, which will drop Shadow and Guardian DPS by a significant factor but not affect VGs appreciably)

 

ST threat (moderate-heavy importance)

Shadow = VG = Guardian (Guardian threat gets bumped up because they've got excellent high threat abilities)

 

AoE damage (moderate importance)

Shadow > Guardian > VG (Shadows have Force Breach and Slow Time; Guardians have Force Sweep and Guardian Slash, both of which got buffed *massively*, on top of Saber Reflect; VGs have the HiB cleave which is negigible, Mortar Volley which is on a 1 min CD but can't be really effectively used while already in combat thanks to the minimum range, and Pulse Cannon, which is on a longer CD than any of the other tank CDs; for those AoEs *not* on CDs, Cyclone Slash is the best by *far* thanks to having the lowest comparative cost and talent buffs, followed by Explosive Surge which is better than default but still expensive as hell, and Whirling Blow is the worst because it has next to no talent support *and* has disgustingly high cost)

 

AoE threat (moderate importance)

Guardian >= Shadow > VG (the ranking depends upon the situation; for trash where you need snap AoE threat across a large area, *nothing* beats Saber Reflect; for closely packed enemy groups, it's pretty much equivalent all around; VGs are at a *slight* disadvantage because they don't have appreciable high threat effects, whereas the AoEs for Guardians and Shadows both have improved threat generation)

 

When you properly explain the relevant capabilities, Guardians are friggin' *amazing*. In the most important categories (spikiness and CDs), Guardians are either the best or tied for it. For the least important one (mean mitigation), they're tied for the worst, not that it really means anything because mean mitigation means *nothing* any more. For the areas of moderate importance, they've got a definite leg up in one category (utility) because their utility is actually designed well and the differences for the others (ST/AoE damage/threat) are so minute that they don't really matter.

For mean migation just compare dipstiks calculations, without the use of CDs the pt has way better migation then the juggernaut.

I think i wrote enough about the uses of Phase Walk for the different boss Encounters.

For the spikiness. I have never encountered this problem in any 8 man or 4 man content i ran so far. I did hm fp with pugs in about campaign gear (probably less) without any problems, i did hm (at 2.0)/nim ops in 8 man without any problems (so as dieing instantly). I see some more overhealing from the healers on myself then on the other pt tank, but just to a degree where my additional migation/utility is still atleast on par.

For 16 man content as i stated before it's clear that they have to change sth.. The additional boss spike dmg is a disadvantage for sin tanks (On 16 man hm thrasher is an example tough hes still tankable). I just know 1 tank that did tfb nim on 16 man and hes stacking hp (more then 45k).

On 8 man nim tough, most of the guilds did do the encounter with atleast 1 sin tank the world first and second always had a sin tank.

I see we aggree (more or less) on the rest.

 

I'd be *very* curious to see how you think Shadows are the best tanks for all non-NiM content, unless you only ever consider running content in top tier gear. If you're running content in gear *appropriate for it*, the spikiness issue is *always* an issue. SM and HM S&V will *still* spike the living hell out of a Shadow, regardless of what you do, which, unless you've overgeared it, *is still* going to kill you.

 

The *only* reason people keep saying it's only a problem in the current top tier of content (whatever that top tier might be at the time) is because their viewpoint continually changes based upon the current BiS gearing. If you actually look at what the content is *designed* to be run in rather than what the BiS people are currently wearing, the problems are consistent and present for all group content at 55.

 

No matter what you're running, you'd actually be better off with a Guardian or VG at the moment. It might not be a major deal for HM FPs or SM Ops, but it's *still* something you have to look at. The higher difficulties don't create these problems out of whole cloth. They've been noted to exist the entire time. The higher difficulties exacerbated these problems in an exponential manner such that even the most *obtuse* people are now recognizing it on NiM when observant people have been noticing it for a good long while..

The math is just not giving this. The additional amount of overhealing i see for 8 man content is negated by the additional amount of migation and utility. For the nim ops the additional healing from phase walk was always more then the additional amount of overhealing i got.

I don't have old data from old hm parses but the whole time i am tanking since 2.0 i never encountered any problem of insta-dieing (unless i ran 16 man) and the average overhealing i get was never more then it should be.

I see sin tanks as best tank for 8 man as i think their utility (5% additional healing is just amazing) and their mean migation is better even when you count some spikeness (overhealing) from 8 man content in. They deal more dmg to bosses, need less healing on average during a boss fight and dont need to stand in melee range all the time for damage (their only melee range abilities are thrash ~10% of the dmg, Maul ~6% and Assassinate ~10%, so its rly a small portion of their attacks). The only significant advantage juggernauts have is their possible reaction to heavy unintended damage when they did not blow their cooldowns before. The rest goes in my opinion to the Assassin.

 

Actually, I *have* compared the parses on Thrasher, though I'll admit I didn't look too closely at VGs (I mostly listened to the VG DPSers that I know about comparative performance). As it stands, Guardians edge out Shadows and VGs by about ~100. It's not massive "omg, this are be turrble!" but pulling 2.4-2.5k rather than 2.5-2.6k represents a noticeable decrease in damage dealt, especially when you consider that the 2.5-2.6k isn't actually top tier DPS.

 

Of course, I've never actually claimed to be a DPS expert. For DPS, I mostly act as an aggregate of the various people/posts/information I have access to rather than coming up with stuff on my own so I don't really guarantee said information to the same level as my tank info. It is nice to see that the comparative DPS levels between the 3 tank ACs is closer than I was lead to believe.

I posted sth. about single target dmg top parses in another section. The best parses from sith assassin are actually above 2,8 k on these fights. The only thing i got from the analysis is that sorc single target dmg is rly low (Maybe all the sorcs turned healer i dont know ).

On 8 man nim tough, most of the guilds did do the encounter with atleast 1 sin tank the world first and second always had a sin tank.

You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.

You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.

I run the nim content with my sin and i don't wanna run the content with a pt/jugg nor did my healers tell me to switch my tank or replace me. I am just quoting the world first guilds now as i don't wanna ask them all personally.

Assassins are just as viable at top levels of PvE as any other class (first 2 guild to clear NiM S&V ran a sin tank). They however require slightly different itemization (little bit more endurance) and a more reactionary (or predictive) play-style.

 

So if you want to put in time to learn/gear your tank well and learn how to handle the fights then assassins are great. However if you want to just experience a bit endgame content and see the storyline then Juggs are probably a better choice. If you're interested in just leveling then any class is fine.

Assassins tanks are fine except for "Terminate" by "Operations Chief" which is a badly designed move rather than making assassins a badly designed tank.

 

I think I said this during nim dg progression in terms of pushing a bit more raid dps, but I think 1 Sin and 1 Jugg are best atm. I'd still rather run 2 assassins than 0 assassins.

I run the nim content with my sin and i don't wanna run the content with a pt/jugg nor did my healers tell me to switch my tank or replace me. I am just quoting the world first guilds now as i don't wanna ask them all personally.

The "inertia" idea people are coming up with for why Sin tanks are still being brought (over 3 months since 2.0 has been out) is complete ********. That guy you quoted "Insaneric" also stated that he has all 3 tanks at 55 and specifically *chose* to bring his Sin tank over any of them because of its utility. Not that I expect reality to change the minds of people who believe Sin tanks are disadvantaged in general. When people have no objective understanding of classes and simply dismiss almost every advantage of a character as *useless* or close to it, the discussion is just ripe with bias.

To be fair, this same kind of thing happens in DPS discussions as well, especially when there is a huge focus on dummy parses. People just have no idea how important factors like having an armor debuff, and being under 30% are for certain classes. Not understanding context is a big weakness in most people and when they look at numbers in a vacuum, it's no surprise they are dead wrong.

I dont see where Phase Walk is worthless. You can use it for tc, twh, dg, op9, tfb, Titan, thrasher, Operation chief, olok, cartel warlords and styrak. You can use it partially for dash. You can not rly use it for kephess.

For tc: Update it during laser.

For the writing horror: Update it after killing jealous male. Healers can run out before they cleanse

For dread guards: update it during ciphas phase or while having force leech. Healers can aswell run out when they see red circles.

For Kephess: You can't rly place it in the middle of the area, (blue Tank circle....) you can instead try to place one on the sides which will give the Phase Walk atleast some uptime.

For op9: Just place it in the middle.

For Terror from beyond: Place it at the entrance update it when you come back.

For Dash'rode: You can place one in the beginning and another one during the fight but it won't have full uptime for the healers, so here it's just partially useful.

For Titan: Update it after Launch.

For Thrasher: Update it after you killed snipers.

For Operations Chief: Will hold long enough as Boss fight is not so long.

For Olok: Place it in the middle you have always time to update it.

For Cartel Warlords: Force Speed away from sunder, place Phase Walk where your healers stand and continue normal kiting.

For Styrak: Place it at the skull where the big apparition spawns. You have time to update it.

Thats still 11/13 bosses where you can use it very good and 2 where you can use it for some time during the fight. It seems we have a different understanding of "worthless".

To make sure we're on the same page, Phase Walk has a 1.5 second cast time (irritating but it can be worked with if you're not the active tank). After it's been cast, Phase Walk will remain active/present for 2 minutes (120 seconds). When the effect is used or wears off the ability goes on cooldown for 45 seconds. The reason Kitru claims it's worthless (from my understanding of his view point) is the 1.5 second cast and the 45 second cooldown. That 45 second cooldown is a long time and a lot can happen during that time (other tank dies tying you up, hiding behind a rock, etc...) and it really breaks up the usability of the ability.

TC: Yes you can put it down during the laser phase, assuming you're not having to get an isotope barrel and it's off the 45 second cd. I have never been able to keep it up 100% of the time it was available.

Writhing Horror: Yes it is perfectly viable to drop it when you said to drop it, assuming it is off the 45 second cooldown.

Dread Guard: Yes your time slots are good, assuming it's off the 45 second cooldown.

Kephess: You got the biggest problem with that fight listed, it's hard to put it in a usable spot for it's whole duration.

Operator: Center is a good easy to remember spot, but a fair number of guilds I know use the center for deletion meetups which can be disastrous if that mechanic doesn't get handled properly (or bugs out even when it is handled properly) thus killing one or both of your healers and anyone else in the center. That being said I try to put it up when I can on the outer ring, but I usually try to put it up when extra healing is needed most (Regulators hit really hard).

Terror: Phase 1, it's awkward to place but semi-feasible as long as your healer isn't running poison, but it will limit how many people actually get to use it. Phase 2, it is almost usable. What I mean is that home platform is good for it, but the timing between screams does not line up with the 2 minute 45 second usage window, meaning there will be more time without it up than with it up, and that's assuming that you have plenty of time to run from tank platform to home and cast it. Also forget about using the teleport ability to get back to home platform, it has bugged out every time I've tried to use it. (This fight is the one that saddens me the most about it as it seems perfect for this ability)

Dash'rode: You nailed it again, the 45 second cooldown makes it nearly unusable if you use it when getting lost or pulling it up as you swap shields on HM (and your shield time is better spent running to the next generator on Nightmare then heading back to where you were).

Titan 6: Update after the launch won't work because of the 45 second cooldown. Assuming you didn't put the circle on a rock, there's a few ways to use it for the launch phase. First you manually cancel the buff off your bar as he's casting launch which teleports you in path of the launch wave and therefore die. Second you cancel it right after Huge Grenade (thus denying the healers the benefit from healing) and hope you placed it in a spot that won't interfere with you getting to a rock. Three you teleport to the circle after the launch wave passes it. Option one kills you and still has you waiting on the cooldown, option two leaves you waiting on the 45 second cooldown for a decent chunk of the phase (usually Titan will ground stomp the other tank and start wrecking havoc on the raid before it's off cooldown). Option 3 suffers the same problem as option 2 but the cooldown takes even longer into the phase to be ready, but it does have the advantage of getting you out of a rock earlier (and safely). If you did put it on a rock I have no clue what would happen or how/why to use it that way, please feel free to enlighten me. The best I've ever been able to do on this fight is every other launch, but that can leave you without it for the final burn phase when bonus healing is needed the most. Usually I put it down for the first phase and for the burn phase, but that still leaves it absent for most of the fight.

Thrasher: Updating it after you kill snipers is a good time, assuming that it's off the 45 second cooldown.

Operations Chief: Yes you are completely right, no reason not to use it for the fight.

Olok: Yes you are completely right, no reason not to have it up whenever possible (you'll be fighting the 45 second cooldown at times though) although you probably won't really need it once you've cleared off the board.

Cartel Warlord: This is a tricky fight for the ability. Your sprint and drop method might work, but you run the risk of a fixate next to the healers and your reaction time not being fast enough or not facing Sunder to taunt off. You should be able to work around those issues, but it's safer and more reliable to not do that. Usually I cast it at the beginning so healers get the bonus healing while all four are up and I cast it after Sunder dies so healers have the bonus healing for Tu'Chuk.

Dread Master: This is a timing fight. The healing can be useful and free up heals to dps a little, but only if your timing is good. The parts of this fight you want the healing bonus is for the Kell Drake (pt 1) and for Dread Master/Kell Drake (pt 2). The rest of the fight shouldn't need extra healing unless your tanks are positioning Dread Master in a stupid way. If you wanted to keep it up for the whole fight you're going to be butting heads with the 45 second cooldown always popping up when you don't have time to cast it (Lightning Chain or the "clones").

Hopefully you noticed a common theme running through all those fights, the 45 second cooldown makes the ability difficult to use for a small benefit that usually isn't needed. Is the ability totally worthless? Not at all. Is it a make or break ability for the healers? Not at all. Is it an ability that makes healers demand a potentially death prone tank into the raid? Not at all. The ability has it's uses, but the way it functions is prohibitive to making it a desirable use of time. I don't know how balanced it would be, but I'd say reducing/removing the cooldown from the 2 minute buff timer running out would be fine and would make the ability a higher priority than it is now. If they really wanted to keep the cooldown they could split it into two abilities (Place and Use) and put Place on a 2 minute cooldown and Use on a 45 second cooldown that resets Place when it finishes, that would reduce downtime on it to just the cast time (when wearing off) instead of the better part of a minute. Or maybe even take away the recall part of the ability if you talent into it on the tank tree, but I'm just stabbing in the dark right now. If I really had my way I'd say get rid of the cast time too, but I can honestly live with that if the cooldown timer wasn't so prohibitive, but I am guessing the cooldown is there to prevent the teleport part of the ability from being abused in pvp by tanks and non-tanks alike.

@nagatamen: Thx for being more precise about the use for phase walk. Some corrections:

First awall about the cooldown. I dont find it to be that important. For a 5 min long Boss fight you have a 80% uptime of phasewalk which means (assuming 3k ehps for both healers) about 240 more hps (which is amazing, it comes close to your self healing). For a 7 min long boss fight you either use it during some important phases (styrak), or you try to have a permanent uptime. (with a permanent uptime you have a 78,6% uptime here aswell). For short Boss fights u have a 100% uptime.

The cast time is not that important either in my opinion,as i stated before except for these 2 bosses you always have time to update the circle for the healers.

To sum it up even when this ability has a cooldown, just the additional healing numbers make it awesome.

TC: normally you have more then enough time to kill an isotope barrel and place a healing circle for your healer (atleast i have ) afterwards. I forgot to mention that that will help probably just 1 of the healers as they have to divide so that they can heal on adds and on boss Position. But tc is not rly a healing check.

Op9: Normally i try to put one healing circle in the middle shortly after the beginning (to cover blue/orange phase). Then after cooldown i try to cover whole yellow phase and the time when regulators and boss are both alive (probably the hardest healing phase in my opinion). We normally meet for aoe heals after black obfuscate in the middle so its nice to have the healing circle there and it normally doesn't disturb you for deletion protocol.

For 8 man i find the second phase to be not rly that big of a healing check compared to first phase.

tfb: For phase 1 i normally dont use it. For phase 2 i use it at the beginning of the phase and i try to have it fully available for tantrum phase, so i cover the tighest healing check points for the whole fight.

Titan 6: Yes i missed some points here (dont know i tought i wrote them down it was a long wall of text). One way to place your healing circle is to sprint to the next location of titan after you got hit by the huge grenade and place it there for your healers for the next.

The more preferable method (i forgot to mention) is to place the healing circle in a way that healers can stand in it for 2 phases of the boss (f.e. between the first and second location the boss has). When your healing circle cooldown runs out you should then normally not have the boss and be able to place it between the third and forth location. For nim you should then still be able to place one before the burn phase. When you are placing them be sure that the other tank has aggro of the boss at this moment.

Cartel Warlords: Atleast in hm it was working this way without any problems and if you do it correctly it should work in nim aswell (where its actually important to have as much healing in first phase as possible), but in nim normally ppl won't stack under horic but spread out a bit. On hm i was just dragging sunder in the bottom left corner, used force speed placed my healing circle at horic and took sunder back in my usual kiting circle without any problems, it should work for nim aswell i think.

Dread Masters: Yes i use it for the beginning for Kell Drake phase and for the last kell drake phase aswell. Normally you can get another cooldown of phase walk down between these 2 phases (so far i did not have problems with the timer, but i suppose that depends upon your dps (the time when you kill the Dragon), most of the time it ran out during the big apparition or when i was not tanking styrak).

For your last part: I think we aggree on the uses for phase walk but differ in our conclusion. So far i didn't have any problems with the casting time nor with the cooldown. If you are able to have a phase walk on at each of the critical healing checks for each boss encounter (and that is entirely possible), you're boosting your 2 healers with about 300 hps during difficult healing phases.

Thats rly a lot and it gives sin tanks the edge over other tanks (in my opinion). I find this ability realy good as it's strong, it's realy difficult to use it perfectly and it requires you to have a very good knowledge of the fights with the cooldown timer present. Probably some sin tanks have their problems with the new ability (and then blame their class....).

Phase walk increases all healing so it should also increase your self heals, in that case when you are not able to place it for healer you should at least place it for yourself, and also when possible (meaning no cleaves and everyone with LoS and range) healer and tank should be in phase walk range so that healers AND the shadow can increase their heals. Also phase walk is a teleport (yes, many tanks forget that) and you can use it to help you on some mechanics or even to kite an enemy/boss.

Phase walk is really useful but it could be better. And no one is saying that shadows are bad, what they are is spiky and the problem with that is that if you get unlucky on rolls you will get pounded hard and almost die (theres even chance to be one-shoted), if that happens it doesnt matter if you are a good or bad player, if you have awesome and perfectly min/maxed gear, if you and your group succeed at mechanics and everything else, the dice roll kills you.

If you have to rely on luck to survive a fight I would say there is something wrong with the class

Phase walk increases all healing so it should also increase your self heals, in that case when you are not able to place it for healer you should at least place it for yourself, and also when possible (meaning no cleaves and everyone with LoS and range) healer and tank should be in phase walk range so that healers AND the shadow can increase their heals. Also phase walk is a teleport (yes, many tanks forget that) and you can use it to help you on some mechanics or even to kite an enemy/boss.

Phase walk is really useful but it could be better. And no one is saying that shadows are bad, what they are is spiky and the problem with that is that if you get unlucky on rolls you will get pounded hard and almost die (theres even chance to be one-shoted), if that happens it doesnt matter if you are a good or bad player, if you have awesome and perfectly min/maxed gear, if you and your group succeed at mechanics and everything else, the dice roll kills you.

If you have to rely on luck to survive a fight I would say there is something wrong with the class

The increase in self healing with assassins shelter is hardly noticeable (10-15 hps compared to 300 hps for both healers). For every fight where you can place it under yourself, you can aswell place it under the healers (as stated above).

Teleporting away is a very very rare incident (assuming force speed is on cooldown and u need to kite a most of the time enraged Boss (you cannot kite every boss)).

The only example is probably just dg enraged kel'sara (twh,op9,kephess,tfb, Titan, Operations Chief, Olok are not kitable ; Dash, Thrasher operate on a small area (and thrasher would aoe kill the raid if you teleport ) ; Cartel Warlords atleast for nim you wanna kill them together ; styrak is switching aggro very fast and is almost permastunning).

On 8 man nim content there's just terminate which can (afaik) one-shot an assassin tank, but operation chief is normally not the real fighting check and you can use defensive cooldowns for that.

In 8 man nim content i must have had a good dice as i never encountered instant kill mechanics at all, nor do any combat logs indicate such mechanics (aside from terminate which you can see comin).

16 man (as i said many times now) is another story and needs to be looked at, but 8 man nim is perfectly fine in this case.

You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.

This all of the healers hate how spikey they are and so do the Sins but partly it is also a matter of pride I believe in not re-rolling. Probably a bit of cannot be asked as well and "I don't want to go through another gear grind." We initially had a PT Tank with me for S&V but not because the Sin was subpar (he was passing for the PT as the Sin had done TFB NiM and so we where rotating).

The "inertia" idea people are coming up with for why Sin tanks are still being brought (over 3 months since 2.0 has been out) is complete ********.

No it is pretty much why we still run sins; We bring the player not the class and if the best player for the job is a Sin then that's what I will bring. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that my sin is now on ToFN because its my PvP main and I moved it there for ranked we almost could of ended up running double Sin for S&V NiM.

Despite my Jugg being my main and that I love it to bits I actually have always enjoyed tanking more on my Sin even though is my alt (and despite it being inferior to the Jugg). Once the fun of *lolnodmgtaken* wares off I find the Sin more engaging

This all of the healers hate how spikey they are and so do the Sins but partly it is also a matter of pride I believe in not re-rolling. Probably a bit of cannot be asked as well and "I don't want to go through another gear grind." We initially had a PT Tank with me for S&V but not because the Sin was subpar (he was passing for the PT as the Sin had done TFB NiM and so we where rotating).

 

 

 

No it is pretty much why we still run sins; We bring the player not the class and if the best player for the job is a Sin then that's what I will bring. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that my sin is now on ToFN because its my PvP main and I moved it there for ranked we almost could of ended up running double Sin for S&V NiM.

 

Despite my Jugg being my main and that I love it to bits I actually have always enjoyed tanking more on my Sin even though is my alt (and despite it being inferior to the Jugg). Once the fun of *lolnodmgtaken* wares off I find the Sin more engaging

I will try to sum that up: You say that ppl don't wanna reroll because of pride and inertia but you think that it's best to reroll cause assassins are spiky, but on the other hand assassins are not subpar to a pt for sv nim and the player is more important then the class..... I don't get what you wanna tell us.

Do shadows have a substatial disadvantage at tanking pve content or do they not have? (That was the Initial question )

Do shadows have a substatial disadvantage at tanking pve content or do they not have? (That was the Initial question )

Yes, they do, but people still bring them because not everyone that plays a Shadow tank in progression content *wants* to play a VG or Guardian, nor do they have an equally (or similarly well) geared VG/Guardian that they can swap to if they need/want to.

It takes a *lot* to overcome class inertia. Shadows were *really* popular tanks for a *very* long time so there are a lot of people with Shadow tanks that still run with them even though it's been pretty much proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they're mechanically sub-par at the moment (thanks to the overwhelming importance of spike mitigation and general lack of value for mean mitigation). Scoundrel DPS is actually pretty damned good at the moment, but, because their DPS was *so bad* for *so very long*, you'll almost never see a DPS Scoundrel around.

To overcome class inertia, popular perception first has to be corrected to be relevant to the current state (i.e. the current relevant capabilities/weaknesses need to be common knowledge). Once the popular perception is actually appropriate for the given reality of the class, you *then* have to overcome the desire for people to stop playing the relevant class and/or level up a new class, which is difficult since many people will simply quit rather than reroll or will wait for the inequalities to be fixed, especially if it's not something that gets any kind of real response.

3 months is nowhere *near* the amount of time that it actually takes to overcome the inertia that gets referenced so often. Unless there is an explicit *major* event that causes/forces/encourages movement from one class to another (i.e. Scoundrel DPS nerfs right after release), it takes *very* long periods of time for the changes to actually develop, especially when you're dealing with a game that's been out for long enough for people to have well developed preferences. The time period gets extended even *more* when the answer isn't immediately obvious, like the Shadow tank spikiness problem (just look at the people that say "I don't see a problem" until they actually get involved in the discussion and completely reverse their position upon actually examining it), since the only way that people generally learn/care about it is when they begin analyzing their performance or participating in a bit of introspection concerning their class.

The forums are something of a canary in the mine for the community in general. The stuff the forums reacts to tends to be the stuff that the rest of the community as a whole reacts to afterwards after a time. It took over a month for the number crunchers on the forums to recognize the problem and several months after that for it to actually become a well known issue. It's going to take even *longer* for the general populous to become truly cognizant of it (i.e. more than just "why are Shadow tanks so much harder to tank with/heal?"), and it's only when the general populous has learned of it that the inertia will start being overcome. There's already a shift in top tier guilds moving away from their Shadow tanks. The rest of the game is going to follow suit in the future once they recognize *why*.

Yes, they do, but people still bring them because not everyone that plays a Shadow tank in progression content *wants* to play a VG or Guardian, nor do they have an equally (or similarly well) geared VG/Guardian that they can swap to if they need/want to.

 

It takes a *lot* to overcome class inertia. Shadows were *really* popular tanks for a *very* long time so there are a lot of people with Shadow tanks that still run with them even though it's been pretty much proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they're mechanically sub-par at the moment (thanks to the overwhelming importance of spike mitigation and general lack of value for mean mitigation). Scoundrel DPS is actually pretty damned good at the moment, but, because their DPS was *so bad* for *so very long*, you'll almost never see a DPS Scoundrel around.

 

To overcome class inertia, popular perception first has to be corrected to be relevant to the current state (i.e. the current relevant capabilities/weaknesses need to be common knowledge). Once the popular perception is actually appropriate for the given reality of the class, you *then* have to overcome the desire for people to stop playing the relevant class and/or level up a new class, which is difficult since many people will simply quit rather than reroll or will wait for the inequalities to be fixed, especially if it's not something that gets any kind of real response.

 

3 months is nowhere *near* the amount of time that it actually takes to overcome the inertia that gets referenced so often. Unless there is an explicit *major* event that causes/forces/encourages movement from one class to another (i.e. Scoundrel DPS nerfs right after release), it takes *very* long periods of time for the changes to actually develop, especially when you're dealing with a game that's been out for long enough for people to have well developed preferences. The time period gets extended even *more* when the answer isn't immediately obvious, like the Shadow tank spikiness problem (just look at the people that say "I don't see a problem" until they actually get involved in the discussion and completely reverse their position upon actually examining it), since the only way that people generally learn/care about it is when they begin analyzing their performance or participating in a bit of introspection concerning their class.

 

The forums are something of a canary in the mine for the community in general. The stuff the forums reacts to tends to be the stuff that the rest of the community as a whole reacts to afterwards after a time. It took over a month for the number crunchers on the forums to recognize the problem and several months after that for it to actually become a well known issue. It's going to take even *longer* for the general populous to become truly cognizant of it (i.e. more than just "why are Shadow tanks so much harder to tank with/heal?"), and it's only when the general populous has learned of it that the inertia will start being overcome. There's already a shift in top tier guilds moving away from their Shadow tanks. The rest of the game is going to follow suit in the future once they recognize *why*.

I wonder why you did not answer to any of my posts about utility (Phase Walk) and all the other stuff i wrote to compare sin tanks with other tanks in this thread (nor about the tfb nim numbers in this class section, fuyris pve guide thread and dipsticks thread).

You just make a long wall of text with a single statement instead: "I think Sin Tanks are sub-par". I think i invalidated all your arguments on different threads, as you are not answering back at all in any of these threads.

I find it funny when you are just using a single statement packed in a wall of text, but don't care about anything i wrote before.

Edit: I am doing the content and i don't see any problem for 8 man nim. I see a problem for 16 man operations as I stated before.

I might have missed it, but what everyone is ignoring is the fact that things change. 2,4 may drop and all of sudden shadow/assasin tanking is "fixed" and now they beat out the others. Or they break juggs. etc

You cannot count on things remaining the same.

I would suggest leveling each role till about 30 in warzones and understanding the playstyle there (because they are very different in pvp). Starting at lvl 20 ish run a couple of flashpoints with each to understand their flavor.

Then pick the one you will enjoy for the long haul. Because they will rotate in terms of most useful/valuable in certain roles.

Also there is nothing in this game which compares to the druid in wow. Each AC can at most fill 2 of the 4 roles (Tank, Heal, Mele, Ranged). The druid switched back and forth alot from being useless to the best in all of the roles so I am sure you understand the up and down nature of the class balance game.