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258/MWS changes that absolutely MUST be made before 5.10 launches

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
258/MWS changes that absolutely MUST be made before 5.10 launches

KainrycKarr's Avatar


KainrycKarr
11.01.2018 , 12:16 PM | #1
- MWS need to be legacy-bound, not character bound. It does not matter what toons we do them on, we should be able to focus on doing this ridiculous grind for a single character at a time as effectively as possible. You made this alt-system for currencies, now friggin' use it.

- 258 Mainhand and offhand must be available for purchase off the MWS vendor. Period. The fact that they currently are not and can only be crafted or drop from NiM GotM is absolutely insane - maybe 5% of the population will ever be able to get them.

- Mods and enhancements must be de-locked from their slot. Min-maxing is critical for both PvE and PvP, and it will be damn near impossible to do so for the overwhelming majority of players if the mods and enhancements are locked to the gear slot (legs, for example).
Kain'ryk Karr - Level 60 Powertech<Clan Adenn>

swiftrav's Avatar


swiftrav
11.01.2018 , 12:28 PM | #2
I absolutely agree with youíre comments, got in test last night with some guilds so we could look at gear and what not cause I read that this was the case with mods and enhancements. Tried it it out and saw that we couldnít move them like we can on live, this will utterly make grinding much more Tedious then it need to be I see no reason to mess with them. Armoring has always been like that and thatís fine but pls Bioware relook at this and address the concerns we players have on this

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 01:16 PM | #3
Please note: I am not trying to rain on your parade here... but there ARE different perspectives on this........

Quote: Originally Posted by KainrycKarr View Post
- MWS need to be legacy-bound, not character bound. It does not matter what toons we do them on, we should be able to focus on doing this ridiculous grind for a single character at a time as effectively as possible. You made this alt-system for currencies, now friggin' use it.
That approach would let players with alts accumulate many MWS per week and gear characters at a pace that is clearly faster then the studio wants. Bis is not supposed to be almost free of effort, time, or resources in MMOs, so I tend to agree with the studio on this point.

Please note: if you have alts and you play alts.. then you can easily work to your effective MWS cap on each character each week, and after two weeks, each alt can buy a piece of gear from their earned MWS.. and then pull the mods and move them to any other character in their legacy using BoL gear (which is plentiful in the game these days). This is an extra step... but it does throttle MWS pacing, while not throttling the proliferation of 258 mods across your legacy. This same method of moving mods via legacy gear has been used by players for years now.

So no.. it's not an absolute need in any way.

Quote: Originally Posted by KainrycKarr View Post
- 258 Mainhand and offhand must be available for purchase off the MWS vendor. Period. The fact that they currently are not and can only be crafted or drop from NiM GotM is absolutely insane - maybe 5% of the population will ever be able to get them.
Who says they won't be? Just because PTS currently does not have them on the vendor does not mean they won't be by patch time. We do know that everything on PTS is being staged and they may simply have not reached the point where they will put them on the vendor yet, or it's a bug, or they simply are not ready yet. I suggest you ask politely for Eric (either in it's own thread, or via PM to Eric) to clarify their actual plan here before reacting like this.

Quote: Originally Posted by KainrycKarr View Post
- Mods and enhancements must be de-locked from their slot. Min-maxing is critical for both PvE and PvP, and it will be damn near impossible to do so for the overwhelming majority of players if the mods and enhancements are locked to the gear slot (legs, for example).
They may not want players exploiting the use of mods to min/max outside of the gear slot in question. Personally, I'm neutral on this one... because we already know that the mods can be REed.... and hence can be crafted for the min/maxers delight. Also... it's not clear that when REed.. that the gear slot restriction even carries over. But again... ask Eric to let players know if bind to gear type is even intended, and if so.. what the reasoning is.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

steveerkcanjerk's Avatar


steveerkcanjerk
11.01.2018 , 02:21 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Please note: I am not trying to rain on your parade here... but there ARE different perspectives on this........



That approach would let players with alts accumulate many MWS per week and gear characters at a pace that is clearly faster then the studio wants. Bis is not supposed to be almost free of effort, time, or resources in MMOs, so I tend to agree with the studio on this point.

Please note: if you have alts and you play alts.. then you can easily work to your effective MWS cap on each character each week, and after two weeks, each alt can buy a piece of gear from their earned MWS.. and then pull the mods and move them to any other character in their legacy using BoL gear (which is plentiful in the game these days). This is an extra step... but it does throttle MWS pacing, while not throttling the proliferation of 258 mods across your legacy. This same method of moving mods via legacy gear has been used by players for years now.

So no.. it's not an absolute need in any way.



Who says they won't be? Just because PTS currently does not have them on the vendor does not mean they won't be by patch time. We do know that everything on PTS is being staged and they may simply have not reached the point where they will put them on the vendor yet, or it's a bug, or they simply are not ready yet. I suggest you ask politely for Eric (either in it's own thread, or via PM to Eric) to clarify their actual plan here before reacting like this.



They may not want players exploiting the use of mods to min/max outside of the gear slot in question. Personally, I'm neutral on this one... because we already know that the mods can be REed.... and hence can be crafted for the min/maxers delight. Also... it's not clear that when REed.. that the gear slot restriction even carries over. But again... ask Eric to let players know if bind to gear type is even intended, and if so.. what the reasoning is.
Alright man, it is pretty clear that you seem to think min/maxing is exploiting. But that is simply not true. Min/max is extremely important part to any mmo. It allows for various types of builds to be used, for example my Min/Max pt ap is not the same as a pyro. Not wanting players to min/max is not their intent if you look at everything as a whole. It is to artificially increase the grind for players. This entire update is turned gearing up one toon into a 2-3 month en-devour. That is not a fair amount of time to get geared up because 1. 6.0 is on the way 2. No one can enjoy the end game pvp and pve until they are geared.

Next point I am going to make here is most of the time what we see on the pts is what we have gotten. So historically when it comes to this game what we see is what we get. So lets not sit here and pretend like they make alot of changes before every update.

Next gearing up 1 piece every 2 weeks? You kidding me man. That seems reasonable to you. There are over 14 pieces you have to do that for all at various levels of cost. A piece every 2 weeks on average is bs. And even if you get lucky through crates and do everything you possibly can it can still take 3-4 months. So then that leaves nim raids for VOTMG. -_-. Do you know how few nim raid teams are actually left in this game yet alone on the Star forge server. Then on top of that it is one of the toughest raids in the game which even fewer guilds have on farm. And what about the pvpers. Buying 1 MWS for 1000 unassembled. Thats a joke. So basically they are going to make us grind for a new set of gear again doing the same old content but skewing the game well out of our favor. You can go ahead and defend that like the fanboy that you are.

This update when it comes to gearing is a joke. It makes the game more tedious then it already is to play. Adds a daily zone that people will hate in about 2 weeks based on how it rewards you. It is a huge kick in the nuts to pvpers and people who primarily pvp. It rewards only nim raiders who will charge an arm and a leg for crafted gear. So they gonna make huge grind only to get to a point to do all the same content again.
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kukumburr's Avatar


kukumburr
11.01.2018 , 03:39 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
They may not want players exploiting the use of mods to min/max outside of the gear slot in question. Personally, I'm neutral on this one... because we already know that the mods can be REed.... and hence can be crafted for the min/maxers delight. Also... it's not clear that when REed.. that the gear slot restriction even carries over. But again... ask Eric to let players know if bind to gear type is even intended, and if so.. what the reasoning is.
I can't imagine that the crafted mods are slot-bound. You'd need 9 different schematics for every single type of mod, and 7 different schematics for every single type of enhancement if that were the case. Maybe once you put it in it gets bound but I don't see how it could be before then.

Also while of course they may change it the slot restrictions seem intended at the moment since it says the slot type on the mod after you take it out and it gives you a red letter message saying that the mod doesn't belong in that slot if you try to put it in something different.

This whole design is terrible. Regardless of whether you can or can't do things or how much of a grind it is it's a confusing system. Just with the mods you could easily buy a piece from the vendor thinking you can switch the mods around, since there is no indication that you can't until you actually pull the mod out. But then you can also get unbound mods by RE and crafting that can be on the GTN, but they're named the same as bound ones. And who knows what the deal is with the mods that come in the crafted gear pieces.

And then the gear you can buy for shards is BoP. The MWS are character-bound. But if you know the trick of pulling mods out and putting it in legacy gear you can send it to other legacy characters. But I guess screw you if you don't know that one trick that the game doesn't tell you about. If you see the gear is BoP and the shards character-bound you're going to think that's the intent: each character has to do their own grind. I mean I just don't see the point of MWS not being legacy. We already have the reputation grind as a gating method.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 04:35 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by steveerkcanjerk View Post
Alright man, it is pretty clear that you seem to think min/maxing is exploiting.
Nowhere did I claim this to be the case. Min/maxing in and of itself is fine. The methods some players will pursue to do it may in fact follow unintended pathways (from a studio perspective).

One of the reasons the studio changes things over time is to pre-empt the cleverness of players finding unintended pathways to what they seek. It's pretty much a never ending challenge for MMO studios. Note my use of the term "one of the reasons" so please don't come back with another accusation about something in my post that is not what I actually said.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 04:40 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by kukumburr View Post
I can't imagine that the crafted mods are slot-bound. You'd need 9 different schematics for every single type of mod, and 7 different schematics for every single type of enhancement if that were the case. Maybe once you put it in it gets bound but I don't see how it could be before then.
I agree with you on this. Of course, we will have to wait and see how this aspect settles out.

Quote: Originally Posted by kukumburr View Post
And then the gear you can buy for shards is BoP. The MWS are character-bound. But if you know the trick of pulling mods out and putting it in legacy gear you can send it to other legacy characters. But I guess screw you if you don't know that one trick that the game doesn't tell you about. If you see the gear is BoP and the shards character-bound you're going to think that's the intent: each character has to do their own grind. I mean I just don't see the point of MWS not being legacy. We already have the reputation grind as a gating method.
No disagreement... but we have to keep in mind.. players can and will find the lowest path of resistance in just about anything. Some players won't.. but they will eventually be told by other players and pretty soon.. it becomes standard procedure for players.

The Whole MWS mechanic is interesting in that it introduces another layer in the purchase process.. but clearly it is meant to be a character specific throttle, while letting an entire legacy of characters work on getting MWS and ultimately the desired gear. People can and will be transporting using legacy gear... early.. and often.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 04:43 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by steveerkcanjerk View Post
Next gearing up 1 piece every 2 weeks? You kidding me man. That seems reasonable to you. There are over 14 pieces you have to do that for all at various levels of cost. A piece every 2 weeks on average is bs. And even if you get lucky through crates and do everything you possibly can it can still take 3-4 months. So then that leaves nim raids for VOTMG. -_-. Do you know how few nim raid teams are actually left in this game yet alone on the Star forge server. Then on top of that it is one of the toughest raids in the game which even fewer guilds have on farm. And what about the pvpers. Buying 1 MWS for 1000 unassembled. Thats a joke. So basically they are going to make us grind for a new set of gear again doing the same old content but skewing the game well out of our favor. You can go ahead and defend that like the fanboy that you are.
Actually.. using alts.. I could do all armor and weapon pieces for my main character in two weeks.... not including converting UCs by pulling mods and moving them via legacy gear. And you need at least two weeks to get the new faction to gain access to the vendors. [Left side items would take a bit longer of course.. but they also contribute less to total gearing results too and a player will add them in as they go along ... probably best to use UCs for this]. Then continue to sequentially rinse and repeat for each alt I want gear for. You could too for that matter. For pieces that cost 5 MWS... might need to convert some UCs to keep to the two week pace.

Trust me.. players are clever and will figure out exactly the fastest way to get the gear they want.. and it won't be based on pessimistic portrayals in the forum.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

PetersCD's Avatar


PetersCD
11.01.2018 , 09:50 PM | #9
I'll go on record as being a bit less panicked about the location locked mods/enhancements. I think its stupid and pointless, but it won't really do more than slow things down a bit. With 258 gear everyone has ~2150 pts of tertiary stat swing that is totally customizable without buying anything other than the minimum amount of gear (2 implants, 1 earpiece, and 14 augments). Maybe there is a customization that requires more than that kind of a swing, but i'm pretty sure what ever stat you're trying to overload gets into diminishing returns territory.

Dps has some room for complaint since for most configurations you get too much in the way of accuracy enhancements. Even that isn't as bad as it has been in the past, you take your 2 accuracy enhancements and a stim and you're at the PvE operations 110% accuracy level. There is an (admittedly) clunky workaround for pvp'ers who don't want accuracy or pve'ers who are intent on keeping their accuracy augments: buy extra healer gear for those two slots. they will have either crit or alacrity.

Tanks are still in crap territory: AFAIK high end tanks mostly want warding b mods (to the extent that they use defense mods at all) and bulwark/bastion enhancements... none of which comes on stock gear. I'd love to see this change, but its been the case since 4.0 certainly.

I want to see these things change, but my experience has been that very little that isn't obviously a bug changes from PTS to the first round or two of live. I'm planning workarounds. A day or two after the PTS was up i had my plan for (barring changes) having a 7piece set in 258, 252 mh/oh, and start replacing my left side with 258, in 2 weeks.

KainrycKarr's Avatar


KainrycKarr
11.01.2018 , 11:18 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Actually.. using alts.. I could do all armor and weapon pieces for my main character in two weeks.... not including converting UCs by pulling mods and moving them via legacy gear. And you need at least two weeks to get the new faction to gain access to the vendors. [Left side items would take a bit longer of course.. but they also contribute less to total gearing results too and a player will add them in as they go along ... probably best to use UCs for this]. Then continue to sequentially rinse and repeat for each alt I want gear for. You could too for that matter. For pieces that cost 5 MWS... might need to convert some UCs to keep to the two week pace.

Trust me.. players are clever and will figure out exactly the fastest way to get the gear they want.. and it won't be based on pessimistic portrayals in the forum.
I'm going to skip quoting all of your other posts and just hit the big notes -

1. No, the legacy-wide MWS is not critical and can theoretically be circumvented via legacy gear. This is not some "trick" that you know of and are informing anyone of. Literally everyone knows of this and I didn't think it would even need to be brought up, but you did. The point is that from the beginning of 5.0 currencies were supposed to be simpler, and streamlined, and legacy-wide and now the system is in place and is being completely ignored in this instance for the sole purpose of slowing us down from getting back to WHERE WE ALREADY WERE. The new gear is not needed for ANYTHING. You have to do the NiM GoTM op just to get the gear. There is no gain to the players or the game's status quo to extend the grind for a set of gear that no content requires beyond buying the Devs "time" to do something worthwhile.

2. Min-maxing is way different in PvP than PvE. PvE you are going for specific numbers to hit metrics in predictable and unchanging fights. In PvP, you minmax to your playstyle and what you're trying to achieve in PvP which is fluid and ever-changing. By locking slots, I am STUCK running a gear set-up that is sub-optimal for my playstyle and am at the mercy of HOPING there is enough NiM teams on my server (Star Forge) to even see some crafted mods/enhancements pop up on the GTN to properly min-max, and then hoping I can buy them before everyone else does because the DEMAND will drastically outweigh the SUPPLY. Nevermind the high prices and that NiM raiders will get geared faster - I have no qualms with that. They earned it. But if I am grinding my happy butt through months of Ossus and at best can be in sub-optimal 258s or a properly allocated mix of 258s and 252s, that is simply unacceptable. I accept that gearing should be slower if I'm grinding Ossus, that is not a problem. But, even if the process is much slower it should be reliable. With the game's raiding population, hoping for the stuff to pop up on the GTN is just not viable.

It is nothing more than a carrot on a stick to keep us grinding and treading water. That might be fine for PvE'rs but for primarily PvPers such as myself it is important to maintain the gear status-quo in order to compete at the highest levels - I run an RP guild in addition to my PvP play and work full-time. I can not start NiM raiding from scratch without abandoning my friends and my other interests in this game.

As for solutions;

If you want to keep the grind long, then add a new vendor with mods and enhancements that cost MWS on their own for min-maxing purposes.

Or, bring Bolster up to 252 and create a craftable set of no set-bonus 256 gear. You can outskill a 256 to 258 difference in gear. You will not unskill someone in full 258s if you are in 252's unless they are massively underskilled in comparison. That is a problem for PvP.

OR, bring back expertise. Let the raiders have their super-258 gear and chase their carrots on their sticks, and let the PvPers maintain the gear quo for our own purposes via expertise.
Kain'ryk Karr - Level 60 Powertech<Clan Adenn>