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The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

Threjyan's Avatar


Threjyan
09.05.2017 , 05:25 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Explain to me what a hybrid is? A hybrid is a cross spec meaning it can and has the proficiency to preform in places where other specs can't.
I feel as if I am going around in circles take your rose tinted goggles off.
Actual DPS specs not hybrids are Snipers and Marauders (Imp) Gunslingers and Jedi Sentient (Rep) they can not do anything but DPS they're locked in.
(They should be the highest parsing DPS for range and melee regardless.)
Look stop trying to make an argument over the fact that you feel hard done by if that is the case move on, try a different spec or maybe become a healer we could do with more of them! haha
Once again, all i can read from your posts is: im a marauder and i want to be the highest parsing class in this game because reasons.

The fact concealement op got a nerf, the concerns of players are well adressed. While marauder gets 2 specs viable for almost all PvE content (close to 99% if i dare may say - only thinking in droids phase of brontes anni could fail, but even so), operative lethality and concealment, are in a somehow "interesting" situation due to the dotting nature of one, and the significant loss of dps of the other.

And while on PvP lethality is, well, a fluffy number class, concealment can be a significant pain in the ***, because its a "trolling" class, due to its many perks, marauders thou are in a good position aswell. The problem i see these days its that players dont accept the fact one player can stall 2 or even 3 others from getting an objective, but thats what makes the game and specific classes so fun to play. All classes have their ups and downs.

And some classes are more viable in pvp then others - it has always been like that.

But one thing will never change: bad players will be bad, and good players will alwasy have the upper hand.

so stop only thinking about your class, or me me me, because the concerns for concealement are valid.
..The Path Of Excess Leads To The Tower Of Wisdom..

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.05.2017 , 11:45 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Threjyan View Post
Once again, all i can read from your posts is: im a marauder and i want to be the highest parsing class in this game because reasons.

The fact concealement op got a nerf, the concerns of players are well adressed. While marauder gets 2 specs viable for almost all PvE content (close to 99% if i dare may say - only thinking in droids phase of brontes anni could fail, but even so), operative lethality and concealment, are in a somehow "interesting" situation due to the dotting nature of one, and the significant loss of dps of the other.

And while on PvP lethality is, well, a fluffy number class, concealment can be a significant pain in the ***, because its a "trolling" class, due to its many perks, marauders thou are in a good position aswell. The problem i see these days its that players dont accept the fact one player can stall 2 or even 3 others from getting an objective, but thats what makes the game and specific classes so fun to play. All classes have their ups and downs.

And some classes are more viable in pvp then others - it has always been like that.

But one thing will never change: bad players will be bad, and good players will alwasy have the upper hand.

so stop only thinking about your class, or me me me, because the concerns for concealement are valid.
Stop spitting out your dummy.

I play all specs.
I have in total:-
4 Sith Warriors (2 Marauders Fury/Carnage) (2 Juggernauts Immortal/Rage)
3 Sith Inquisitors (2 Assassins Darkness/Deception) (1 Sorcerer Lightning) Thinking to make another as a healer.
2 Bounty Hunters (1 Mercenary Arsenal) (1 Powertech Shield Tech)
3 Imperial Agents (1 Sniper Virulence) (2 Operatives Concealment/Medicine)

So I am not bias to one spec because I love playing all specs my favourite has to be Immortal and Lightning.

Before you say what about Republic I have 5 characters which I don't pay any attention to because I am all for the Empire.

The only reason I favour my Fury Marauder most is because I play PVP and I use Immortal for PVP also.
The rest I use mostly for PVE or story content when I am bored.

So before you say that Marauders parsing bla bla you realise I play with on a daily basis a PVP spec which most deem the lowest parsing spec out of the three.
Annihilation is the highest although I understand why. When I tried it out it felt really bland and I absolutely hated playing it.
Carnage I like very much high DPS but not viable for the content I play.

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
09.05.2017 , 12:17 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
No I am approaching it from the right angle because balance means balance regardless and in balance one can't opt for more yet leave the other with less.
So balance is if another class can output the same DPS as we can it will make us inferior because that won't be balance.
Having more benefits and the same DPS output is not balance.
Dunno if you read what I was saying apart from the first sentence... Sure doesn't look like it. What I am saying is: Marauders and Sniper do NOT have less benefits than Operatives or any other classes that can do more than one role. They have different ones. In some situations, operatives will be better suited, in others, marauders or any other class.

Also in a meta like this game where it's the same abilities for PVE and PVP, they have no choice but to have similar DPS outputs for similar specs because of PVE reasons (by similar specs I mean the classification they make between burst/sustain/melee/range). Then they have to balance the other benefits, such as heals/group utility/defensives/movement buffs and debuffs and many other things for PVP.

This is getting off-topic and I can't really talk about the operative nerfs cause I didn't really experience them, so I will stop there. I just hate to see when people say since mara and sniper can only DPS then they should have better numbers. This is not true. They have one more DPS spec so they can adapt better (especially since half the time one spec of each class if effed up so still being able to choose between two is nice) and they both have a bunch of really useful group utilities that make them nearly irreplaceable in raid groups.
Nemio the Acceptable Player

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.05.2017 , 04:16 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
Dunno if you read what I was saying apart from the first sentence... Sure doesn't look like it. What I am saying is: Marauders and Sniper do NOT have less benefits than Operatives or any other classes that can do more than one role. They have different ones. In some situations, operatives will be better suited, in others, marauders or any other class.

Also in a meta like this game where it's the same abilities for PVE and PVP, they have no choice but to have similar DPS outputs for similar specs because of PVE reasons (by similar specs I mean the classification they make between burst/sustain/melee/range). Then they have to balance the other benefits, such as heals/group utility/defensives/movement buffs and debuffs and many other things for PVP.

This is getting off-topic and I can't really talk about the operative nerfs cause I didn't really experience them, so I will stop there. I just hate to see when people say since mara and sniper can only DPS then they should have better numbers. This is not true. They have one more DPS spec so they can adapt better (especially since half the time one spec of each class if effed up so still being able to choose between two is nice) and they both have a bunch of really useful group utilities that make them nearly irreplaceable in raid groups.
Bioware devs have officially stated that the true melee DPS is Marauders and range DPS is Sniper (Insert mirror classes here) that is why the DPS is higher they will always be top parsing.

I don't need to explain what specs parse the highest because I assume everyone should know by now. Hint (DoT)

Of course they have less benefits because there is dead spots 'examples' We can't off tank if a tank dies or leaves or we can't off heal when healer dies or leaves.

You hate it because it is the truth. Snipers and Marauders will always be the only true DPS spec.

I'll say it again I had no problem with any so called nerf whether it was Sorcerer, Operative or Mercenary. I can play the spec I can play the same spec afterwards.

If you think this suppose nerf is bad try playing two Marauders at the same time and having no choice either switch to Annihilation or stop playing because they super nerfed Carnage and nerfed Furys Smash. Although I tried Annihilation but didn't like it so I had to grin and bare it and that's how I found out I could play with whatever they throw at me.
(The only thing I may struggle with if I haven't played the class in ages is the rotation)

But I honestly didn't see any reason to be complaining as I logged into my Operative today (Concealment) and saw no issue it was quite fun actually had been a long time coming although I found Lethality has better DPS out the two but Concealment is by far the most fun out the two.

ottffsse's Avatar


ottffsse
09.05.2017 , 05:01 PM | #25
this is getting off topic but the point is still, which is true independent from PvP where opers can troll bads any day in PvE concealment got penalized a bit too much in comparison to carnage mara considering:
1.) carnage mara has no positioning requirement for optimal dps - you force leap and do your thing (burst window) - does not matter if you are infront or back of target often a whole gcd or 2 problem, don't get me started on the reaplication of dot effects as oper which mara has none it is always ready to go - pewpew
2.) mara has slightly more tools to get to any target quicker - hello intercessor (again dps boost for melee dps)
3.) mara has way better aoe than concealment
4.) mara has better group utility than concealment at least in raids-for ranked it is even basically they are just different sets of perks

all in all bioware know most players play sith warrior/jedi knite(tm) so it makes no sense to over-nerf those so everyone gets totally frustrated.

from a pve dps standpoint and even as going as far as pvp balance there is no reason for them not to be the same "at target dps" category (and now they are 300dps apart.) in pvp such fine measures of dps output are outweighed by factored likes being able to stay on target as melee and also dps under pressure. the later point being also significant in burn phases of nim ops. fine, let opers have their good off-heals while maras have great passive damage mitigation, but their dps output in a perfect environment has to be very close for pve balancing reasons it does not make sense otherwise. as mara you will still be able to kill or force a retreat, or help arrives of that pesky operative before they kill you as long as you keep up the pressure - which your passive and instant damage mitigation tools will allow you to do.
Also a 300 dps increase to a class on dummy does not do anything in a pvp setting really, but does have benefit for operation bosses.

Thyron's Avatar


Thyron
09.05.2017 , 05:05 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Explain to me what a hybrid is? A hybrid is a cross spec meaning it can and has the proficiency to preform in places where other specs can't.
I feel as if I am going around in circles take your rose tinted goggles off.
Actual DPS specs not hybrids are Snipers and Marauders (Imp) Gunslingers and Jedi Sentient (Rep) they can not do anything but DPS they're locked in.
(They should be the highest parsing DPS for range and melee regardless.)
Look stop trying to make an argument over the fact that you feel hard done by if that is the case move on, try a different spec or maybe become a healer we could do with more of them! haha
Your attitude toward balance may work on a casual level. However if you had any experience in the doing the hardest content in the game, much less leading it for years as i have and doing it on most classes and specs, then you would know that there is no such thing as "hybrid" if you think for one second that a dps class will stop to heal during a apex master mode boss your a moron. The dps checks are too high. Especially when we have classes that arent even pulling the numbers required to meet the dps check (concealment). People have attempted to explain this too you nicely but ima just put it bluntly. You have no clue what your talking about because your not skilled or experienced enough to know. If you were you wouldnt have the ignorant views on dps like you do. ALL DPS CLASSES CAN NOT AFFORD TO DO ANYTHING BUT DPS IN APEX RAID SCENARIOS. FURTHERMORE IN RANKED DOING SO IS ONLY REALLY VIABLE WHEN YOU HAVE A DPS ADVANTAGE OVER THE ENEMY (like when you have more people alive or if their group is inferior). end of story

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.05.2017 , 05:48 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Thyron View Post
Your attitude toward balance may work on a casual level. However if you had any experience in the doing the hardest content in the game, much less leading it for years as i have and doing it on most classes and specs, then you would know that there is no such thing as "hybrid" if you think for one second that a dps class will stop to heal during a apex master mode boss your a moron. The dps checks are too high. Especially when we have classes that arent even pulling the numbers required to meet the dps check (concealment). People have attempted to explain this too you nicely but ima just put it bluntly. You have no clue what your talking about because your not skilled or experienced enough to know. If you were you wouldnt have the ignorant views on dps like you do. ALL DPS CLASSES CAN NOT AFFORD TO DO ANYTHING BUT DPS IN APEX RAID SCENARIOS. FURTHERMORE IN RANKED DOING SO IS ONLY REALLY VIABLE WHEN YOU HAVE A DPS ADVANTAGE OVER THE ENEMY (like when you have more people alive or if their group is inferior). end of story
Not for one second am I going to read that comment too many capitals not enough countries.
To defend, justify or explain is a thing called self-justification that is because there is areas in which you fear it is true.
So defending something that doesn't need to be defended means you fear losing it.
Not a single one has actually given a single reason or piece of evidence on why the spec should be buffed.
Before getting back to the I don't play or what not cut the clutter I have most certainly been playing this game longer than 95% of you.
Website forum account created 2009.
Late 2011 beta because I pre-ordered.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.05.2017 , 06:03 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by ottffsse View Post
this is getting off topic but the point is still, which is true independent from PvP where opers can troll bads any day in PvE concealment got penalized a bit too much in comparison to carnage mara considering:
1.) carnage mara has no positioning requirement for optimal dps - you force leap and do your thing (burst window) - does not matter if you are infront or back of target often a whole gcd or 2 problem, don't get me started on the reaplication of dot effects as oper which mara has none it is always ready to go - pewpew
2.) mara has slightly more tools to get to any target quicker - hello intercessor (again dps boost for melee dps)
3.) mara has way better aoe than concealment
4.) mara has better group utility than concealment at least in raids-for ranked it is even basically they are just different sets of perks

all in all bioware know most players play sith warrior/jedi knite(tm) so it makes no sense to over-nerf those so everyone gets totally frustrated.

from a pve dps standpoint and even as going as far as pvp balance there is no reason for them not to be the same "at target dps" category (and now they are 300dps apart.) in pvp such fine measures of dps output are outweighed by factored likes being able to stay on target as melee and also dps under pressure. the later point being also significant in burn phases of nim ops. fine, let opers have their good off-heals while maras have great passive damage mitigation, but their dps output in a perfect environment has to be very close for pve balancing reasons it does not make sense otherwise. as mara you will still be able to kill or force a retreat, or help arrives of that pesky operative before they kill you as long as you keep up the pressure - which your passive and instant damage mitigation tools will allow you to do.
Also a 300 dps increase to a class on dummy does not do anything in a pvp setting really, but does have benefit for operation bosses.
Wow you're really trying hard even to point the blame at Bioware that just discredits your whole comment.
You're trying to say Carnage is easy which means I can't begin to answer how wrong you're:-
1) CC.
2) Rage management.
3) Rotation. (If disturbed is a fragile thing to fix)

The only way I can see specs parsing the same is never because no spec is optimised to perform the same in every place unless a mirror spec.

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
09.05.2017 , 06:20 PM | #29
Concealment is still capable of clearing every sustained check in the game without being carried.
Ryann - Sniper | Ryannack - Sorcerer | Apophas - Marauder
Jesicca - Mercenary | Lindseey - Gunslinger
Origin - Honey Badgers
Jedi Covenant

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
09.06.2017 , 12:18 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Bioware devs have officially stated that the true melee DPS is Marauders and range DPS is Sniper (Insert mirror classes here) that is why the DPS is higher they will always be top parsing.
This may have been stated and true at some point (in fact pretty sure it was what they aimed for quite a few years ago). However, it isn't true anymore. They explained how they balance DPS in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043.

While we all may or may not agree with what is in there, they are very transparent as to what they aim for, and nothing there mentions Maras and Snipers doing more damage. This new thread we are commenting on is mentioning the fact that the Concealment nerf was too big considering what is said in the class balance thread and how concealment works.

On another note, you mentioned since snipers/maras cant off-taunt or off-heal they are less useful, while I can't make you change your mind about that on forums, I advise you look carefully at those classes and realize all the group utility potential they have.
Nemio the Acceptable Player