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The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.04.2017 , 12:21 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by PrometheanDeath View Post
Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.
Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.
Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.
Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.
Think a little clarification needs to be done by your analysis of self heals.
Marauders do have a self heal utility, 1% max health every time a rage ability is activated, though agreed to be insignificant, especially in pvp.
Snipers on the other hand do have self heals to note. 2% max health every 3 seconds while in cover, combined with all of the ability to range, CC etc. makes the healing earned quite helpful. And the fact that snipers ballistic shield is a better kolto overload (non buffed) is definitely a major heal to survivability.
I would agree partially with the sin overcharge saber heal being minor, a 15K self heal with added 3K heals over time due to charge activations, but it can be a helpful burst heal.
Juggs Indeed have 2 great heal type abilities, endure pain being a 10 second last stand, and enraged defense heals (against dot classes/mobs) helps a lot for survival.
PTs have something else entirely going on however, kolto overload is almost useless to them at this point unless they take the utility that makes it a 2nd stun breaker, a simple vengeance jugg has enough dps alone to burn through it.
The lower damage capability of sorc and merc weren't because of access to self heals, it was more due to just being a ranged class, but off heals are more abundant to both of them than the other classes mentioned by having physical healing abilities.
Operatives actually own less healing than sorcs and mercs, but have the ability to not heal as often because their heals are healing them over time. But their ability to survive is mostly due to concealment roll immunity, and kiting.

Back to the main point though, concealment is pretty much in a bad shape. The nerf was a bit overboard, and personally a 15% nerf to collateral and acid blade would be more welcomed than an almost flat 30%. All comes down to the same thing though, pvp players complain about how concealment "Over performs" when in pve they were just fine as they were. And no one played concealment anyway because lethality was basically broken in damage CA spam. The dot spec literally played like a sub burst spec.[/QUOTE]

Read my post before and I have answered all you've disputed.
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Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
09.04.2017 , 01:16 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Let's answer this right?
1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.
2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)
3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?
Because this is the same common sense.
I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.
Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.
Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.
You seem to be approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not because people want DPS to be balanced that they want every class to have the same perks. But let's start from the top.

Merc/Sorc/Op are not more "First and foremost" healers and secondary DPS. They can do one or the other. Same goes for PT/Jugg/Sin. Their capacity to do another role should not make them less efficient at being a DPS other than having one less spec to choose from (which is a decent plus side to maras and snipers). General DPS output should be balanced, but that doesn't mean everything should be the same. Apart from the obvious different DPS rotations that make every spec have strengths and weaknesses, each class brings different utility. It is not because Snipers and Maras can only DPS that they bring less utility to a group. Among other things, Marauders bring predation, bloodthirst and obfuscate that are unique (even group heals in annihilation) and snipers bring the big shield and diversion. Other classes bring different things between offheals, taunt, stealth rez, combat rez, other raid buffs, etc.

This is what makes the game fun, every class has some unique advantages, and you gain when bringing different classes in a operation or PVP match. But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).
Nemio the Acceptable Player

funnypat's Avatar


funnypat
09.04.2017 , 02:43 PM | #13
I think the greatest difference between dps on different classes is performance not the "potential dps output".

I've seen juggs doing more than 6 mil damage and juggs not able to do more than a few 100k.
Marauders doing more than 5 mil damage and marauders not able to do more than 400k.
Even sorcs after nerf can do 5 mil and more damage if they know how to kite and use their head.

Insert any other class here :P

Same applies to merc heals or sorc heals - as it is I mostly am doing the most hps in almost every match, but occasionally there is a merc or sorc who is able to do 5 - 6 mil healing which puts them slightly ahead of me.

(which is weird because I'm quite decent and op healing seems to have "the best" hps output there is - so i should be able to outheal even people who are better than me (I just know that line will be used against me :P))

I've come to realize that people who are decent enough hardly ever complain about "unfair dps/hps performing classes" but find a way to be better than everybody else and obviously it works and is possible to do so. Even after countless nerfes.

So maybe you should stop wasting your time here and try to get your keybinds/UI right for you so you can do so too xP
Ræly (Operative - Star Forge)
Cæly (Scoundrel - Star Forge)

Thaladan's Avatar


Thaladan
09.04.2017 , 03:00 PM | #14
concealment is fine.
Elite warlord sorcerer- sniper - powertech

Thyron's Avatar


Thyron
09.04.2017 , 03:19 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Let's answer this right?
1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.
2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)
3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?
Because this is the same common sense.
I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.
Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.
Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.
Your logic makes no sense. Of course i want operatives to do as much damage as marauders at least. why? because operatives rotation is HIGHLY inferior to marauders in every way. Target swapping, aoe, resource management, penalties for downtime, capability to avoid downtime, positional requirement, the list goes on. The sad thing is that even if an operative was capable of sustaining MORE dps there would still be no reason to choose it over a marauder in a operation. Because 100% uptime dps capability does not = real world dps. Furthermore if you think that an operative has better survivability than a marauder, without the operative sacrificing OVER HALF of its dps time doing active mitigation then you dont know the classes. but heres the thing.... you CANT afford to sacrifice dps like that. If you think you can then you should seek to inform yourself better on the reality of master mode operations and ranked pvp.

Thyron's Avatar


Thyron
09.04.2017 , 03:21 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).
well put

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.04.2017 , 03:59 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
You seem to be approaching this from the wrong angle. It's not because people want DPS to be balanced that they want every class to have the same perks. But let's start from the top.

Merc/Sorc/Op are not more "First and foremost" healers and secondary DPS. They can do one or the other. Same goes for PT/Jugg/Sin. Their capacity to do another role should not make them less efficient at being a DPS other than having one less spec to choose from (which is a decent plus side to maras and snipers). General DPS output should be balanced, but that doesn't mean everything should be the same. Apart from the obvious different DPS rotations that make every spec have strengths and weaknesses, each class brings different utility. It is not because Snipers and Maras can only DPS that they bring less utility to a group. Among other things, Marauders bring predation, bloodthirst and obfuscate that are unique (even group heals in annihilation) and snipers bring the big shield and diversion. Other classes bring different things between offheals, taunt, stealth rez, combat rez, other raid buffs, etc.

This is what makes the game fun, every class has some unique advantages, and you gain when bringing different classes in a operation or PVP match. But DPS output stays and will always stay the most important thing a DPS can bring to a group, and if a spec is really bad at it, then it loses its point. That's what this thread is all about, concealment losing its interest in a competitive environment not because of lack of utilities but because it can't do its role (which is "first and foremost" kill things fast).
No I am approaching it from the right angle because balance means balance regardless and in balance one can't opt for more yet leave the other with less.
So balance is if another class can output the same DPS as we can it will make us inferior because that won't be balance.
Having more benefits and the same DPS output is not balance.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
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DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.04.2017 , 04:11 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Thyron View Post
Your logic makes no sense. Of course i want operatives to do as much damage as marauders at least. why? because operatives rotation is HIGHLY inferior to marauders in every way. Target swapping, aoe, resource management, penalties for downtime, capability to avoid downtime, positional requirement, the list goes on. The sad thing is that even if an operative was capable of sustaining MORE dps there would still be no reason to choose it over a marauder in a operation. Because 100% uptime dps capability does not = real world dps. Furthermore if you think that an operative has better survivability than a marauder, without the operative sacrificing OVER HALF of its dps time doing active mitigation then you dont know the classes. but heres the thing.... you CANT afford to sacrifice dps like that. If you think you can then you should seek to inform yourself better on the reality of master mode operations and ranked pvp.
Wait there treacle if I make no sense then what about this line "Of course I want Operatives to do as much damage as Marauders at least." Of course and at least is the key words here.

So 'Of course you want your spec to output as much damage as an all out DPS spec at least.'
Meaning you'd would prefer it do more now explain to me where's the sense in that?
More or less if you had your way you'd be the highest parsing DPS spec in the game.
Now let's hold it there if you want to parse higher play an actual DPS spec not a hybrid DPS because that's what Operatives, Sorcerers and Mercenaries are no matter how much you like it that's what it is.
Same goes for Juggernauts, Powertechs and Assassins they're a hybrid DPS spec.

No matter how many of you want to argue that is the truth you wanted to know.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
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masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
09.04.2017 , 04:46 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Wait there treacle if I make no sense then what about this line "Of course I want Operatives to do as much damage as Marauders at least." Of course and at least is the key words here.

So 'Of course you want your spec to output as much damage as an all out DPS spec at least.'
Meaning you'd would prefer it do more now explain to me where's the sense in that?
More or less if you had your way you'd be the highest parsing DPS spec in the game.
Now let's hold it there if you want to parse higher play an actual DPS spec not a hybrid DPS because that's what Operatives, Sorcerers and Mercenaries are no matter how much you like it that's what it is.
Same goes for Juggernauts, Powertechs and Assassins they're a hybrid DPS spec.

No matter how many of you want to argue that is the truth you wanted to know.
Scrappers and Sawbones are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Sawbones is a heal spec - with notably weak af DPS capabilities.

Balance and Telekinetics are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Seer is a heal spec - also piss-poor DPS performance.

You balance the 24 specs and their mirrors - not the 8 advanced classes. Sentinels and Gunslingers should not have their DPS specs doing more damage than any other DPS spec solely because the advanced classes don't fulfill any other roles. In DPS capabilities, Scrapper should match Combat. Ruffian should match Watchman - and so should Serenity and Vigilance.

None of the four specs listed in that last sentence should individually be "highest DPS" - they should all match each other at 5% over the neutral DPS target, as stated by Bioware. Scrapper, Combat, Infiltration, and Focus should all be exactly at the neutral DPS target, again, as stated by Bioware.
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DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.04.2017 , 07:53 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
Scrappers and Sawbones are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Sawbones is a heal spec - with notably weak af DPS capabilities.

Balance and Telekinetics are DPS specs, not "hybrid" specs. Seer is a heal spec - also piss-poor DPS performance.

You balance the 24 specs and their mirrors - not the 8 advanced classes. Sentinels and Gunslingers should not have their DPS specs doing more damage than any other DPS spec solely because the advanced classes don't fulfill any other roles. In DPS capabilities, Scrapper should match Combat. Ruffian should match Watchman - and so should Serenity and Vigilance.

None of the four specs listed in that last sentence should individually be "highest DPS" - they should all match each other at 5% over the neutral DPS target, as stated by Bioware. Scrapper, Combat, Infiltration, and Focus should all be exactly at the neutral DPS target, again, as stated by Bioware.
Explain to me what a hybrid is? A hybrid is a cross spec meaning it can and has the proficiency to preform in places where other specs can't.
I feel as if I am going around in circles take your rose tinted goggles off.
Actual DPS specs not hybrids are Snipers and Marauders (Imp) Gunslingers and Jedi Sentient (Rep) they can not do anything but DPS they're locked in.
(They should be the highest parsing DPS for range and melee regardless.)
Look stop trying to make an argument over the fact that you feel hard done by if that is the case move on, try a different spec or maybe become a healer we could do with more of them! haha
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
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