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The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
The pathetic state of concealment 5.4

Thyron's Avatar


Thyron
08.30.2017 , 08:17 PM | #1
To start off i would like to ask for help from all those who main concealment ( or are skilled enough to but chose not 2 cause its trash). The only explanation to the state of the spec is a lack of balance understanding by the team, and few are talking about it. We need to speak up. now to get to the thick of it.

Concealment operatives currently are by far the lowest parsing melee burst class in the game, and by a massive margin. Below i will be show the rank and specific number of dps on a dummy at the time of this post. Furthermore i ask all the concealment operatives out there to upload your raid parses to add to the information.

#1 deception / infiltration dps: 10589.22 player Der'ty
#2 carnage / combat dps: 10397.38 player: Xi'niri
#3 rage / focus dps: 10226.71 player: Kuro-sorrow
#4 Advanced prototype / tactics dps: 10191.08 Harry's Powertech
#5 concealment / scrapper dps: 9875.5 player Etchelon

In a second post on this thread i will be putting a detailed explanation why in my belief this problem is much larger than even the numbers there show. This will detail things such as Aoe capability target swapping punishment positional requirements offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns that increase dps. (spoiler: operative is by far the worst off)

One final note: As someone who has been a skilled operative for years and a Nightmare raid leader of two teams that have all bosses down. Currently there is only 1 spec in the game i consider to be non-viable without being heavily carried, and that is concealment operative. They are a liability in my opinion.

-Iris

ottffsse's Avatar


ottffsse
08.31.2017 , 03:30 AM | #2
yeah they really overdid it, it should have been like the Carnage nerf - appropriate. But no, let's just nuke the class cause it performs well if you stand behind a target and pewpew. Concealment only put out high dps when it was placed behind a target and could just do rotation, it's AoE was always lackluster if not plain non-existent, target switching on the harder side of burst specs (though easier than sustained), and positioning requirement too. Now it is a nuissance in PvP to troll players and kill bads. In PvE it is not worth it endgame. As an operative it was always a single-target specialty class.

Granted Deception is a bit overtuned now and deserves the carnage treatment I guess (not the Concealment nuke treatment). Why the heck are some things in the sustained rdps/ mdps burst category +300 of 10K and others @ -200 to -300???? Makes no sense.

omaan's Avatar


omaan
08.31.2017 , 06:13 AM | #3
I tried it after the new patch, and dropped this class fast... very low dps both in pve and pvp. It wasnt doing good dps even before this patch appeared but now it is even more useless. Officially devs killed concealment

Threjyan's Avatar


Threjyan
08.31.2017 , 07:08 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
It wasnt doing good dps even before this patch appeared
without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.
..The Path Of Excess Leads To The Tower Of Wisdom..

ottffsse's Avatar


ottffsse
08.31.2017 , 11:48 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Threjyan View Post
without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.
sure but as the op will point out in detail this does not take into account:
-positioning requirement (already more restrictive than carnage, or deception with front maul)
-target switching where you need to refresh dots (carnage and deception don'y have these problems)


that's just for PvE
in PvP you either do dps or you roll around/ use off heals while NOT doing dps
to sum up: concealment should actually be slightly ahead of carnage/deception to be properly balanced. at least the same, definately not bellow those.

omaan's Avatar


omaan
09.01.2017 , 02:27 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Threjyan View Post
without all the constrainst of pve and pvp gameplay it was the 6th hightst dps class out of 18, and was the 3rd melee, above carnage and par with deception, according to banths charts.
Yeah, if you consider only dumb parsley info. However, in real-life pvp, have you seen concealment opers in top dps list? No, i also didnt. Its energy management, low biggest crits, close-ranged abilities were not giving concealment to dps high. Yet bioware nerfed it even more :/ now no one is playing it, since it pulls really low dps.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.02.2017 , 05:58 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Thyron View Post
To start off i would like to ask for help from all those who main concealment ( or are skilled enough to but chose not 2 cause its trash). The only explanation to the state of the spec is a lack of balance understanding by the team, and few are talking about it. We need to speak up. now to get to the thick of it.

Concealment operatives currently are by far the lowest parsing melee burst class in the game, and by a massive margin. Below i will be show the rank and specific number of dps on a dummy at the time of this post. Furthermore i ask all the concealment operatives out there to upload your raid parses to add to the information.

#1 deception / infiltration dps: 10589.22 player Der'ty
#2 carnage / combat dps: 10397.38 player: Xi'niri
#3 rage / focus dps: 10226.71 player: Kuro-sorrow
#4 Advanced prototype / tactics dps: 10191.08 Harry's Powertech
#5 concealment / scrapper dps: 9875.5 player Etchelon

In a second post on this thread i will be putting a detailed explanation why in my belief this problem is much larger than even the numbers there show. This will detail things such as Aoe capability target swapping punishment positional requirements offensive cooldowns and defensive cooldowns that increase dps. (spoiler: operative is by far the worst off)

One final note: As someone who has been a skilled operative for years and a Nightmare raid leader of two teams that have all bosses down. Currently there is only 1 spec in the game i consider to be non-viable without being heavily carried, and that is concealment operative. They are a liability in my opinion.

-Iris
Have you taken into account the self/off heals of the spec?

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.
Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.
Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.
Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.

PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
09.03.2017 , 09:26 AM | #8
Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.
Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.
Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.
Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.[/QUOTE]

Think a little clarification needs to be done by your analysis of self heals.
Marauders do have a self heal utility, 1% max health every time a rage ability is activated, though agreed to be insignificant, especially in pvp.
Snipers on the other hand do have self heals to note. 2% max health every 3 seconds while in cover, combined with all of the ability to range, CC etc. makes the healing earned quite helpful. And the fact that snipers ballistic shield is a better kolto overload (non buffed) is definitely a major heal to survivability.
I would agree partially with the sin overcharge saber heal being minor, a 15K self heal with added 3K heals over time due to charge activations, but it can be a helpful burst heal.
Juggs Indeed have 2 great heal type abilities, endure pain being a 10 second last stand, and enraged defense heals (against dot classes/mobs) helps a lot for survival.
PTs have something else entirely going on however, kolto overload is almost useless to them at this point unless they take the utility that makes it a 2nd stun breaker, a simple vengeance jugg has enough dps alone to burn through it.
The lower damage capability of sorc and merc weren't because of access to self heals, it was more due to just being a ranged class, but off heals are more abundant to both of them than the other classes mentioned by having physical healing abilities.
Operatives actually own less healing than sorcs and mercs, but have the ability to not heal as often because their heals are healing them over time. But their ability to survive is mostly due to concealment roll immunity, and kiting.

Back to the main point though, concealment is pretty much in a bad shape. The nerf was a bit overboard, and personally a 15% nerf to collateral and acid blade would be more welcomed than an almost flat 30%. All comes down to the same thing though, pvp players complain about how concealment "Over performs" when in pve they were just fine as they were. And no one played concealment anyway because lethality was basically broken in damage CA spam. The dot spec literally played like a sub burst spec.

Thyron's Avatar


Thyron
09.04.2017 , 02:58 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Have you taken into account the self/off heals of the spec?

Mara/Sniper should be top spec DPS classes because of the absence of self heals.
Sin's although they have minor self heal ability it is only minor.
Jugs/Powertech have two great self heal buffs which help towards sustaining damage while lasting longer in a fight meaning more DPS output.
Operative/Sorcerer/Merc loads of off heals and little perks.
Actually yes i have taken into account the self heal and survivability of operative, and if fact the evidence only serves to support my finding that their dps is much lower than it should be. let me explain

Dps survivability in regards to balance can be looked at in a multitude of ways. for the purpose of concealment we will focus on two clear differences.

Passive survivability: this includes passive stats like damage reduction and dodge chance while also including defensive cooldowns that are off the global cooldown and thus do not lower dps. I.E. evasion and shield probe

Active survivability: this includes things that can be used to help you survive longer but require the use of global cooldowns. I.E. kolto probe and roll

It is very important to make the distinction between these as one serves to severely lower your dps to gain survivability while the other allows you to maintain damage and survivablity.

Now in regards to concealment operatives out of all the melee dps classes they boast the least passive survivability. With only evasion shield probe and stim boost to go on top of medium armor. Now i could go into detail for every melee dps class but a cursory knowledge of them shows that their passive survivability is miles ahead of the limited stuff that operative has.

Now because they have such low passive survivability this means that they often times are forced to use global cooldowns to actively survive. Thankfully they boast the best capability to do this out of all the melee classes, but their is one MASSIVE downside to this. They loose dps. a hell of alot of dps. This fact is combined with the relization that in master mode operations you cant afford to sacrifice dps. Furthermore they are already the worst melee burst class in the game making it even more the case they cant afford to loose dps.

Well some of you are probably saying what about pvp. Well the same issue exists in any group fight scenario. They simply lack the capability to pressure the enemy team while also surviving themselves.

The only saving grace for concealment at all is 1v1 pvp. As in this against some classes you can strike a balance between using roll immunity to mitigate high damage enemy attacks and probes to heal yourself while attacking inbetween. However with the nerf to concealment's already poor dps in pvp they are simply outclassed by almost any good dps player simply due to the damage disparity. furthermore in general they simply lack the capability to kill a healer on their own.

T.L.D.R. yes i took their survivability into account and in fact it only serves to show that they are worse than a simple comparison of dps of classes shows.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
09.04.2017 , 03:59 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Thyron View Post
Actually yes i have taken into account the self heal and survivability of operative, and if fact the evidence only serves to support my finding that their dps is much lower than it should be. let me explain

Dps survivability in regards to balance can be looked at in a multitude of ways. for the purpose of concealment we will focus on two clear differences.

Passive survivability: this includes passive stats like damage reduction and dodge chance while also including defensive cooldowns that are off the global cooldown and thus do not lower dps. I.E. evasion and shield probe

Active survivability: this includes things that can be used to help you survive longer but require the use of global cooldowns. I.E. kolto probe and roll

It is very important to make the distinction between these as one serves to severely lower your dps to gain survivability while the other allows you to maintain damage and survivablity.

Now in regards to concealment operatives out of all the melee dps classes they boast the least passive survivability. With only evasion shield probe and stim boost to go on top of medium armor. Now i could go into detail for every melee dps class but a cursory knowledge of them shows that their passive survivability is miles ahead of the limited stuff that operative has.

Now because they have such low passive survivability this means that they often times are forced to use global cooldowns to actively survive. Thankfully they boast the best capability to do this out of all the melee classes, but their is one MASSIVE downside to this. They loose dps. a hell of alot of dps. This fact is combined with the relization that in master mode operations you cant afford to sacrifice dps. Furthermore they are already the worst melee burst class in the game making it even more the case they cant afford to loose dps.

Well some of you are probably saying what about pvp. Well the same issue exists in any group fight scenario. They simply lack the capability to pressure the enemy team while also surviving themselves.

The only saving grace for concealment at all is 1v1 pvp. As in this against some classes you can strike a balance between using roll immunity to mitigate high damage enemy attacks and probes to heal yourself while attacking inbetween. However with the nerf to concealment's already poor dps in pvp they are simply outclassed by almost any good dps player simply due to the damage disparity. furthermore in general they simply lack the capability to kill a healer on their own.

T.L.D.R. yes i took their survivability into account and in fact it only serves to show that they are worse than a simple comparison of dps of classes shows.
Let's answer this right?
1) Operatives,Sorcerers and Mercenaries are suppose to be if anything a healing class first and foremost and DPS second.
2) Juggernauts,Assassins and Powertech are suppose to be if anything a tank class first and foremost and DPS second. (Reason for slight DPS increase is because being a tank you're always on the target and nothing else priority. Also already stated the ability difference when you notice Shielding Probe, Kolto Infusion, Kolto Probe, Combat Res and Diagnostic Scan.)
3) Marauders and Snipers is a DPS class regardless with lack of these features that are beneficial to each spec.

So let me answer you this you want operatives who are a close range spec do the same amount of damage as say a Marauder because by the sounds of it you sure right do and if that is the case then you might as well give Marauders the same self heals as Juggernauts and Snipers the same self heals as Operatives?
Because this is the same common sense.
I play as a Marauder first and foremost which I expect to hit harder than any other spec in the game period.
Because it takes skill to survive and output DPS.
Snipers should be slightly lower as for them not needing to be in enemies range and not having to jump into close quarters with a risk of being swarmed.