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On the Limitations of SW: TOR's Class-Design vs. Tactical Flashpoints


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TL/DR (1):

 

The level-cap story-modes of these need to be made harder --below the [HARD] versions, obviously, but still hard enough to require a proper Trinity-group.

 

Reason: Because the level at which most players over-power these currently is pushing our classes into territory they are clearly not designed/built for.

 

TL/DR (2):

 

The fundamentally "closed" design of the classes/roles in this game is at odds with the "open" design of TFPs, and this only becomes more apparent the more you over-power said TFPs. The limitations of those designs does not permit mitigating this too much, if at all.

 

 

(NOTE: This is from a r/DPS/Mercenary's perspective...feel free to add your class/spec/role's as well.)

 

Right, now then:

 

So I was doing the usual Czerka [WEEKLY] on one of my many, many Mercs, and I'm finding a trend that is becoming really, really annoying:

 

My gear is nothing special --ilvl 162/168 comms-gear, some or most aug's, "broadly correct," but not really optimised, stats-- and as such, neither should my DPS/threat be; And yet, seemingly almost every freaking run, I end up face-tanking most, if not all the boss-fights.

 

Aggro-dump? It might as well not even exist in these situations for me anymore.

 

Now, on my Arsenal-spec Mercs, this is not a huge problem, as that spec gets a bunch of extra defensibility and/or utility talents (I've learned to love Energy Rebounder, by the way, which I'd always considered kinda useless in the past). Pyro is another matter entirely. If someone is quick on the Kolto-click thingies and/or the odd off-heal, and if I have my DCDs (such as those are for Pyro) up, then i can usually hold out for "tanking" the entire fight, and we get 'er done no probs.

 

But given the usual tunnel-vision "pew-pew durr-durr-durr!" of most PuGs --exacerbated by the nature of tactical flashpoints!-- I find myself going "SPLAT!" at least on occasion, especially when I've already blown my CDs from the last round of face-tanking.

 

This highlights quite glaringly the following, and is the point I'm trying to make:

 

SW: tOR is tied very strictly to the role-trinity model, and there is not a lot of wiggle-room as a result.

 

Although the tactical FPs may not explicitly need, say, a "real" tank, the level to which, say, a heavy DPSer can over-power the content is such that said heavy DPSer effectively becomes a tank, and then I/they find that...guess what: We're not tanks, and we can't take the kind of beating that tanks are made to take, especially when your group may not have much/any heals.

 

Solution:

 

Tune up the difficulty such that a trinity-group is needed.

 

In SW: TOR, it's fairly explicit that DPSers need to focus on DPSing correctly, tanks need to focus tanking, and healers need to focus on healing, by nature of their very design, and that none of those roles/specs have many talents/skills that go too far outside of this.

 

And yet, the more you/we overpower the content of tactical FPs, the further we drift outside of those design-roles, and i think my example is proof of the fact that this game is simply not designed to accommodate such.

 

SW: TOR is quite old-school in some ways --that's one of the things I love about it, warts and all-- so let's keep it that way, hey?

 

Hope that made sense, anyway.

 

Discuss?

Edited by midianlord
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Wait, you're complaining because when you run the FP without a tank you end up having a DPS toon tank? Ummmm... yeah. What else would it be?

 

Of course, you could always just tone down your DPS a bit to trade aggro with other players...

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Wait, you're complaining because when you run the FP without a tank you end up having a DPS toon tank? Ummmm... yeah. What else would it be?

 

Of course, you could always just tone down your DPS a bit to trade aggro with other players...

 

No, I'm saying that I'm running into the mechanical wall of a DPS toon not being a tank, vs. how much DPS is incoming, vs how much a DPS toon can "tank," and that there doesn't seem to be a way within current mechanics/design around this.

 

Also, I find that I am often among the lower-geared people in these instances --I never pull first, by the way, I know better that that-- yet I'm still ripping aggro left and right off people who I shouldn't be ripping aggro off of? (No, I don't open with AoEs on bosses, either -- I know better than that, too.)

 

At least that's for Mercs, maybe PTechs have it a bit different? I've not played a PTech/Vanguard, so I wouldn't presume to comment there.

 

And if this does require that I tone down my not-world-beating DPS, then isn't that further reason to tune up the difficulty/mechanics enough to require, at least, a real tank? There's kolto-stations, and I've got off-heals, i can use em just fine to help keep him up.

 

As or aggro-trading....yeah, trusting other players in a PuG to be competent and willing to actually....my God, communicate and co-ordinate?

 

Unfortunately, I know better than that, too.

 

Other possible solution:

 

Tune them such that they are truly solo'able by-design --they almost are, if you out-gear them enough, even with the fixed adds on the droid-- and make the kolto-clickies useable by a non-grouped player.

 

But then, why even have TFPs in the level-cap tier at all, if you're going to do that?

 

just make them [HEROIC 2]s, the vast majority of which can be solo'ed by any halfway-competent player, and leave the Flashpoint versions in [HARD] mode (which, IMO, are "just right.").

 

Unstoppable force <----> immovable object, basically, as a result of trying to dumb-down content so more bads can access it. This is why TFPs are a bad idea in this game.

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OP,

 

I dare say it is more than just being overgeared, DPS that just remotely play correctly will rip aggro and become the de facto tank. Queue: all you said above that goes with that.

 

My baby Marauder isn't twinked. All of her gear is at least blue and within, say, 10 levels of toon level, and all her gear is modded, but not with purple bits. In other words: average, in MY opinion of things.

 

Also: I am NOT a Marauder super star. I am learning the class as I level one. BUT, I read the guides both here and at Dulfy, have an idea of how my skills interact with my procs, and follow that. As a result, even when I have a 'tank' in my daily KDY, I more often than not take aggro. Heck, when I was lower level, and thusly had fewer skills, I could still be the 'face-tanker' against higher-level DPS toons who had more skills at their disposal. I often find that I am the only DPS toon who is following a kill order: I kill all the normal mobs and STILL have time to land a few strikes on the strong or elite that the others were ganged up on.

 

So, I agree with your hypothesis of what is going on, but I think the 'cause' is broader than just gear.

 

I think this is a result of the nature of the TFPs. I really do like them in principle. KDY, in my opinion, IS a neat idea. It is 'random,' pops quickly, has a decent story behind it, and provides good XP. It is a GREAT leveling idea. And the TFPs are probably better, for planets, than the old H4s mostly for the reasons above. But, I think it is at a great cost. I only do my ops in guild groups, so, my only exposure to PUGs are in HMFPs and the TFPs as I level, but, damn, I have seen so many of the very things joked about it in the 'Weird People You Meet' thread.

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OP,

[...]

 

I think this is a result of the nature of the TFPs. I really do like them in principle. KDY, in my opinion, IS a neat idea. It is 'random,' pops quickly, has a decent story behind it, and provides good XP. It is a GREAT leveling idea. And the TFPs are probably better, for planets, than the old H4s mostly for the reasons above. But, I think it is at a great cost. I only do my ops in guild groups, so, my only exposure to PUGs are in HMFPs and the TFPs as I level, but, damn, I have seen so many of the very things joked about it in the 'Weird People You Meet' thread.

 

Exactly this.

 

KDY is awesome levelling-content --hell, it's practically a free level, some runs. Especially for those of us alt-o-holics who just want to scream at the thought of doing yet another non-class related quest, again (ugh).

 

KDY especially, but maybe TFPs in general should remain levelling-content, though.

 

It's partly on EAWare hyping KDY up to be something it really isn't, and putting it in the level-cap tier, where it really doesn't belong. (CZ-198 are a bit different, but, if memory serves, EAWare didn't make it out to be anything more than the proverbial [DAILY]/[WEEKLY] grind for rep and creds, very much to their credit. Plus, they have proper [HARD] versions.)

 

But, aside from building bad habits (I seem to be the only one who actually goes weak ---> strong in my PuG KDY runs and/or use my interrupt, or tries to keep the group together, at all)...yeah, we end up tanking the bosses if we do it right, too. (I really hate Merc-tanking that droid-boss, by the way --guys, can you like, start killing the adds now, please? As you can see, I'm "tanking" the big guy, a little busy here!)

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Well I think the problems you're running into are...

 

1) your teammates are bad, not much you can do about it.

2) pyrotech is op :D (I know, I play one sometimes)

3) some dps classes need better defensive cooldowns. Usually this is more a concern for pvp, but it does find its uses in pve, in solo content, role-less group content, and raid-wide damage-heavy boss fights.

 

Maybe 3) could be solved by opening up more defensive talents in the trees, so you can spec for straight damage if you're in content with little risk of damage to yourself (tank takes everything), or a tankier build to improve your own survival at the cost of some of your dps.

Unfortunately, most of these are tuned for pvp, so anything that improves your survival through better CC / slows / knockbacks, is of absolutely no use in pve.

 

Or maybe tactical flashpoints should come with aggro managing stations in addition to the kolto stations. Have a clickable that puts you into stealth for a few sconds and drops all aggro instantly (like force camo basically). Have another one that taunts the boss to the person who clicks it ?

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You forget that the entire reason why Tactical Flashpoints were implemented was so that we could have role-neutral content; the trinity design is nice on paper, but in reality there aren't enough tanks to go around. Sticking with the traditional flashpoint design makes for a fun instance, but when you have say, five DPS for every one tank (the ratio is probably worse given how hard it is to find tanks for even 16m ops) in the flashpoint queue, the number of players who get to participate in content for a given time frame is rather limited.

 

Having played through these FPs a fair few times myself, I certainly found that four-dps groups saw more deaths than where even one support role was present, but there's really no way around it short of balancing it around four poorly geared dps, in which case it would be even more of a faceroll exercise when a support class is present.

Edited by naldoran
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3) some dps classes need better defensive cooldowns. Usually this is more a concern for pvp, but it does find its uses in pve, in solo content, role-less group content, and raid-wide damage-heavy boss fights.

 

Don't get me wrong: I do get your point. But, for example, if you gave Maras more DCDs ... damn, that'd be uber OP. Maras have insane DPS precisely at the cost of those DCDs.

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You forget that the entire reason why Tactical Flashpoints were implemented was so that we could have role-neutral content; the trinity design is nice on paper, but in reality there aren't enough tanks to go around.

 

But I think that's part of the OP's point. I am well aware of why TFPs are good, as you say, 'on paper.' But the classes were designed as part of a trinity: tanks, heals, and DPS. When those are lacking, the system's reliance on the trinity, in the design of the classes, is exposed. It is a weakness of both the trinity system and the TFPs. Being overgeared is one way to expose it; being a capable player with ... less-capable ... players also exposes it.

 

It is what it is. How can Bioware fix it? Establish a tank and healer quota per server obviously isn't a solution. But making everything role-neutral wouldn't be either. I think the TFPs are great for leveling, but, without reworking the classes, I don't think they are viable endgame content. Well, not viable if they were all we had for endgame. I think level 55 TFPs are also good in the Korriban/Tython scenarios where their purpose is limited to introducing the new story arc. In that regard they are also a success: it is simple for everyone who wants to be set up for the new arc to be ready. However, I am not of any high opinion for bolstered ops. And not because I am an elitist. Far from it! I just only see PUG pain in bolstered SM ops using my own KDY experiences as 'proof.'

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, if you gave Maras more DCDs ... damn, that'd be uber OP.

Well I think Mara's dcds are pretty strong already. Maybe they come too late in the level progression, that's a problem for the balance of lowbie pvp and tactical kuat, but in endgame maras have all the tools to tank for a reasonable time, then dump aggro and let it be somebody else's problem. :D

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my experience about tactical comes from doing the story arch on 12 toons(to grind the set) and levelling two through occasional kuat runs, plus sometimes i've done CZ weekly with tactical version and not HMs.

 

TFPs with a complete trinity group feels ridicolously easy to me..

 

3dps+1healer: i hardly don't respec dps..specially if at the boss i see dps are good and otherwise i'm going to fall asleep if i keep healing.

 

3dps+1tank: some situations tend to become hard or dangerous, but i usually have enough cds or occasionally let a dps take aggro if i'm going to die, this usually on trash since the kolto stations turn boss fights in a alt-tab situation :-)

 

the 4 dps expose the baddies and shows how dps are not deigned to keep aggro for a long time..kill order helps since when you face the champion it's during a 4men burst. honestly i'd prefere to see tactical content moved to levelling ( even if it would tone down the avg player skill at cap) or have that content soloable at cap..or heroic 2 as suggested.

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As commando dps whit max/min gear I just hold agro on boss fights (in tactical fp) at the point of the fight when my hp drops to lvl Im not comfortable whit I agro drop or just go to click colto station myself. And agro drop works fine in those fights. Just dont drop agro at the start of the fight give some time for other dps to build up agro and then drop it. If I drop agro at 50% of boss hp it will take some time to agro boss again in most cases boss is dead before I take agro back. so my advice is wait a bit for agro drop or click colto stations yourself
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Here is an idea. Play a Tank.

 

lol amen

 

Seriously though, I 'tank' these as a DPS all the time. What you really should do is learn how aggro works precisely, and then you can very easily determine how much of a group you will hold when doing a tactical.

 

First things first, assume all DPS suck and that you will rip off them within 5 seconds if you attack the same target. Then figure out exactly how much of that stuff you can handle on your own. If you want to faceroll it and death from above/fusion missile every big group, you will tank every big group. On the other hand, if you actually kill from weak to strong (like you claim you do) with mostly single target attacks, you can safely avoid aggro and force the bads to take the damage for you while you mop stuff up.

 

When it comes to bosses, you have 2 options. One, learn to tank them (they can easily be tanked on a DPS if you just take the time to click the heal station thingies every so often). Two, give the other DPS about a 15 second headstart (this is assuming they're really bad, which is surprisingly the case more often than you'd think), then pop your dump 10 seconds after you start attacking and on cooldown from there.

 

But I still see no reason you can't just 'tank' the boss as a DPS. I could solo these flashpoints in the gear you're in if I were allowed to click the kolto healing stations without a group.

 

TL;DR: Someone has to tank, or be the aggro holder, it may as well be you, its not a big deal, learn to deal with it.

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The problem with this idea is, Tactical Flashpoints are designed to help DPS get queues because EVERYONE plays DPS. I would have to say the current population of players for The Harbinger splits into this 15% Tanks 30% Healers 55% DPS. So, unless your a Healer or a Tank, you arent getting queued for a HM 55 within 1 - 15 minutes. and that's why Tactical Flashpoints were designed. If you get a Tactical Flashpoint with 4 DPS, ok, that's fine. Unless the people are incredibly stupid, you shouldnt be wiping or even dieing because you should be able to kill everything before it kills you. Ive ran atleast 100 of both CZ-198 Tacticals and i only have wiped 20 - 30 times in the Tactical versions. HM Corp Labs is nearly impossible without a REALLY good group because of the damn droid adds in the first boss, and THE *********** MISSILES IN THE SECOND BOSS, THOSE NEED TO DIE IN A FIRE! (sorry, really ranty tangent)

 

tl;dr You need better gear, stop complaining about Tactical Flashpoints there are nothing wrong with them. If they needed the "trinity" they would just be storymode 55 flashpoints and DPS would never get a queue for ANYTHING unless they group up with Heals/Tank

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I'd recommend clicking them yourself, as close to on cooldown as allowed by mechanics.

 

Ah, yes, that sometimes --actually, often-- runs you into another design-problem:

 

In the specific fights I mentioned --Duneclaw and Enhanced Vrrrrblithingy in Czerka Core Meltdown-- you have to have them right on top of the generators or spore-pop things, where you get to find that the client often won't let you click the koltos because it thinks you're trying to target the boss --even though I already have him targetted.

 

It's a hit-box/collision-detection issue, (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, not my area of expertise) and also really annoying. Better to have someone a bit "out of the way" --with respect to how much crap is filling their screen at once-- at a Kolto-station who can click it right away, IME.

 

A total non-issue in the [HARD] version if the group is geared correctly and passes the quite basic role- competence/mechanics-check that that version is, perhaps somewhat ironically :confused:

Edited by midianlord
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[...]

 

But the classes were designed as part of a trinity: tanks, heals, and DPS. When those are lacking, the system's reliance on the trinity, in the design of the classes, is exposed. It is a weakness of both the trinity system and the TFPs. Being overgeared is one way to expose it; being a capable player with ... less-capable ... players also exposes it.

 

[...]

 

^^That^^ is precisely the point I'm trying to make, thank you :)

 

As for bolstered Ops...I like the idea, at least in principle. It gets more of us unguilded and casual/semi-casual but competent players into Ops (I've still never done one, myself, and would love to) without (/shudder) spamming "LFG SM 8/16m [Op-name shorthand]!!!111"constantly on fleet. (because, eeewww, other people :mad:)

 

It needs to be kept within tight limits, though, IMO. If you have ilvl 140-156, then you get bolstered no higher than ilvl 162. 168+, no Bolster for you!

 

(I would also love to see an expanded tutorial-arc --Like the old Tionese gear mission, only much more in-depth, especially as regards the importance of following mechanics-- for Operations the first time you queue for them, come the new patch.)

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See my sig.

 

I've never felt the urge to play a tank. I don't dislike them or the role, it's just not my thing. Why should I feel like i'm being forced to?

You may feel like your being forced to, but you aren't actually.

 

Most people never feel the urge to play a tank. Therefore, their queue times are longer for a trinity-based encounter. It's just a fact of life. The people that are making you wait for a pop are all the other players that feel the same way as you.

 

:)

Edited by Khevar
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You may feel like your being forced to, but you aren't actually.

 

Most people never feel the urge to play a tank. Therefore, their queue times are longer for a trinity-based encounter. It's just a fact of life. The people that are making you wait for a pop are all the other players that feel the same way as you.

 

:)

 

There's another side to that:

 

What incentive is there for more people to want to tank at endgame?

 

Tanks should at the very least, IMO:

 

Have comms-available gear much better stat-budgeted than the crap that's currently available (the healer and/or damager gear is at least "serviceable," and not too hard to make quite a bit better. The tanker gear is utterly abysmal in every way, or so I'm told. That needs looking at.).

 

Have increased rewards for tanking in GF compared to damagers, and possibly healers. Also unique/cool stuff that's only available for them in that role, based on a GF check that scores off their talent trees. (Sorry, full-tree damagers in tank-stance with shields don't qualify. You want the shinies, you have to be a real tank.)

 

As for "just roll a tank bro:"

 

Sorry, no -- dealing with it like that is not "incentive," it's punishment for trying to work around a fundamentally bad situation.

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The tanker gear is utterly abysmal in every way, or so I'm told. That needs looking at.).

Certainly not going to argue with you on this one!

 

As for the rest, I don't have enough experiences with MMOs to know if giving better rewards for tank players is a good idea or a bad idea. Has something like this been tried before? Did it work?

 

It seems to me that people play the roles that they enjoy. Some people like tanking. Would you play a class in this game that you didn't enjoy, simply because it had better rewards?

Edited by Khevar
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It has been my (limited) MMO experience: Vanilla WoW, up-to-post-Moria LOTRO, and TOR since prelaunch, that tanks are always (publicly) the rarest. The random abuse from PUG-know-it-alls is my main suspicion. It is the number one reason why my Assassin rarely tanks outside a guild group, at least. Vanilla WoW put a very high price tag on tanks repairs bills, as I recall.

 

I do not think better rewards would fix the 'problem.' Gear is already stupidly easy to get in this game - for whatever type of stuff you do. I.E., even though comm-bought gear is 'so much worse' than token-dropped gear, that's only (superficially) true for HM/NiM ops. It is bloody overkill for all other PVE and it is easy enough to get as it is.

 

No, I think the issue is the trinity itself. But, funny enough, I like the trinity. And it is my second-hand information that in the latest game to 'remove' the trinity, GW2, the player-base has taken upon itself to demand roles from groupmates. So, if true, that is pretty telling.

 

TFPs have their place. A few posters on page 2 seemed to have completely missed the point. But the solution is a hard one to nail down. The trinity isn't 'wrong' and neither are TFPs 'bad.' The OP was pointing out that the two don't necessarily mix perfectly. And I agree with that assessment.

Edited by thewitchdoctor
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[...]

 

No, I think the issue is the trinity itself. But, funny enough, I like the trinity. And it is my second-hand information that in the latest game to 'remove' the trinity, GW2, the player-base has taken upon itself to demand roles from groupmates. So, if true, that is pretty telling.

 

TFPs have their place. A few posters on page 2 seemed to have completely missed the point. But the solution is a hard one to nail down. The trinity isn't 'wrong' and neither are TFPs 'bad.' The OP was pointing out that the two don't necessarily mix perfectly. And I agree with that assessment.

 

And ^^that^^ too. (Again, thank you :))

 

Hmmmm...

 

...

 

Consider:

 

Defense Rating.

 

Although in all practical terms, healers and damagers don't want it in their slots, it is still at least of theoretical benefit to all classes --Pyro Merc even gets a talent that increases it by 2%, (melée/ranged defense), Sorc/Sage has a native 10% compared to the heavier-armour wearers at 5%, and Snipingers get +20% ranged defense in crouch/cover (Sharpshooter/marksmanship also has a talent that maintains it for a few seconds when you leave crouch/cover)-- whereas Shield/Absorption is for true tanks/off-tanks only.

 

It would seem, from these examples, that someone at EA/Bio clearly intended non-tanks to make use of Defense Rating in at least a basic sense, sooo....

 

...

 

So why not have an extra mod-slot in gear that --for this hypothetical new type of mod only, no other mods can go in here-- takes a special type of mod that increases overall defense rating --by quite a bit, not just a few points-- that, if used, increases Defense chance at the cost of....hmmm....let's say mainstat, as that is the most broadly beneficial to healers and damagers. (Possibly at the cost of Power and/or Crit Rating, too?)

 

Non-consumable, (I'll have to check, but I believe there are Adrenals that do something like this, but those only last 15 seconds...besides, who uses the non-damage-boosting Adrenals? Those have a very long cooldown, at any rate) fairly easy to craft/source, not too expensive to take in and out, so for certain situations, you can increase your "tankiness" at the cost of DPS/HPS, but when that situation is over, just rip 'em out quick, restoring your "real" stats to where they were, and go back to nuking or healing at full capacity?

 

Yes, absurdly over-geared people will no doubt use that to solo stuff that's not officially solo'able even more easily, though it would probably take them longer to kill stuff --example, the big droid with the now-working-correctly little adds that now hit really bloody hard from full range even in normal mode-- but let's not kid ourselves, that ship has looooooong since sailed.

 

Thoughts?

 

E:

 

To keep the discussion simple, and to avoid any potential balancing nightmares: These mods would not work in PvP areas, but would work in OWPvP. Again, a lot like the high-end Adrenals in that sense.

Edited by midianlord
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