This post is exclusively for pvp, although pve'ers would find some merit.

 

VENGEANCE...

 

It's a stretch, but I'd like to see "Seething Hatred" in the vengeance tree be re-vamped.

 

Suggestion would be to include an increase to crit rating across the board, in addition to the current abilities granted. This would assist with the randomness of the spec. Now, while still relying heavily on crits for success, it would help tip the scale for vengeance dps gameplay.

 

If there was no crit enhancements available for consideration, then my other suggestion would be for an increase to generic bleed dps.

 

RAGE...

 

I have no complaints with shi-cho currently. The spec plays smoothly and efficiently. It is an incredibly threatening spec. The problem with shi-cho, is the deliberate focus on one ability. There are many facets enabling supreme damage with this form. The only "fix" for this form, would be a subtle option for defence. (Aside from the easily countered sabre reflect).

 

In this regard, I'd suggest an optional mitigation ability(requiring feat points), that would increase shi-cho's damage mitigation, thus complimenting the base 3%.

 

IMMORTAL...

 

This spec plays efficiently and incredibly smooth. No real complaints here aside from the ridiculous options for dps. Currently, immortal spec with dps gear and a shield dominate. The mitigation provided, coupled with dps potential, in actuality, is the essence of balanced juggernaut gameplay.

 

In conclusion...

 

We need to include reasons for dps juggernauts to play dps specs. If nothing changes, then we will all end up in immortal spec with dps gear (yes, not everyone gears for tanking), throwing magical shields to teammates...enabling 50% of our enemies' damage to go "poof" while our healers keep us up. I'm not even going to include any hybrid possibilities.

 

Thanks for reading.

The one gripe I currently have with Juggernaut (or rather Guardian) DPS is that in my opinion Vengeance and rage are too close on pure single target DPS. If the numbers given in this forum as well as my personal experience are any indication Vengeance is ahead on the dummy by maybe 50 DPS. And the dummy definitely favors Vengeance. Seeing all the perks of Rage like easier adaptability and mobility, not to mention how much it shines once adds enter the equation Vengeance seems like the second best choice on most fights.

 

Therefore I would advocate a buff to Vengeance DPS. It's not like that spec currently dominates the DPS leaderboards anyways. The best candidate for this in my opinion would be an increase in the Rampage proc rate, which would also serve to reduce the high variance of the DPS output.

 

Edit:

This post is exclusively for pvp, although pve'ers would find some merit.

My bad, missed that one initially. My suggestions were made from a PvE point of view.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jurugu

I had a few ideas as well for the dps spec's regarding pvp.

 

Vengeance

 

Damage - In regards to Rampage I like how the talent was designed but I think that ravage needs some sort of armor penetration or increased damage. One option could be that every time after your first ravage, your next proc'd ravage could have an increased 10% damage which can stack up to 3 times.

 

Cooldowns - Other than invincible I think enraged defense (Vengeance Tree) is arguably the second best cooldown that juggernauts have. However, I think that it shouldn't cost rage to use and the 4% damage mitigation should be increased to 5% so it is somewhat comparable to the Marauder cloak of pain.

 

Rage

 

Damage - The damage for this spec is already insane, and i think changing it at all would make it over-powered.

 

 

Cooldowns - Enraged defense (Rage Tree) is quite possibly one of the worst cooldowns in the game. It does practically nothing when fighting someone one on one. When getting focused by multiple people it is absolutely useless. I think that it should be either completely redesigned or changed to the one in the vengeance tree with the new improvements I mentioned above.

 

These are just a couple ideas I have in mind they are by no mean complete or polished in anyway. Im just trying to give the community a couple ideas so we can start brainstorming.

I had a few ideas as well for the dps spec's regarding pvp.

 

Vengeance

 

Damage - In regards to Rampage I like how the talent was designed but I think that ravage needs some sort of armor penetration or increased damage. One option could be that every time after your first ravage, your next proc'd ravage could have an increased 10% damage which can stack up to 3 times.

 

Cooldowns - Other than invincible I think enraged defense (Vengeance Tree) is arguably the second best cooldown that juggernauts have. However, I think that it shouldn't cost rage to use and the 4% damage mitigation should be increased to 5% so it is somewhat comparable to the Marauder cloak of pain.

 

Rage

 

Damage - The damage for this spec is already insane, and i think changing it at all would make it over-powered.

 

Cooldowns - Enraged defense (Rage Tree) is quite possibly one of the worst cooldowns in the game. It does practically nothing when fighting someone one on one. When getting focused by multiple people it is absolutely useless. I think that it should be either completely redesigned or changed to the one in the vengeance tree with the new improvements I mentioned above.

 

These are just a couple ideas I have in mind they are by no mean complete or polished in anyway. Im just trying to give the community a couple ideas so we can start brainstorming.

 

 

1: I think that enraged defense should be rage free cost wise. It should last longer, and no longer heal you, but rather have a flat 20% mitigation for 20-30s. This is a baseline addition to help match marauders because I don't think that marauder CD's should be nerfed, other mDPS should be brought up to a closer level.

 

2: I'd rather see veng get a flat 30% alacrity boost for 5 seconds after leap as it increases DPS on ravage, encourages varied rotations etc. Just more varied gameplay I guess.

We need to include reasons for dps juggernauts to play dps specs. If nothing changes, then we will all end up in immortal spec with dps gear (yes, not everyone gears for tanking), throwing magical shields to teammates...enabling 50% of our enemies' damage to go "poof" while our healers keep us up. I'm not even going to include any hybrid possibilities.

 

Am I a bad person for being okay with this? Like I enjoy being an unkillable node cap stopper with a healer who is also unkillable while we almost-literally pelt people with feathers and run them out of CDs...till they finally die out of boredom?

 

Of course rateds it's sort of retarded, given it comes down to whoever Trans/Predate + Sin Speed/Rolls to the objective first wins.

 

To be honest, I couldn't get Smash spec down till I played a Sent, now that I know it it's pretty decent in regs and rateds (and do about even damage to my Sent oddly...), and I'm finishing min maxing my gear just because I now know how to play it. Veng has always been excellent but inconsistent (I so far agree with all of the ideas presented, but I am in no way an expert in the spec). But I still like being that unkillable/takes forever to kill node guy so I stay in my tank gear and tank spec 75% of the time. It's just more useful to even PUG groups who know how to work with a tank.

 

But, lets say they nerf healing to get rid of the current nothing happens fest in rateds. Can/should we consider that in the Jugg questions? If they knock say, 25% off healing - I don't see the Shield+DPS gear cutting it as well, nor the full tank being as wtfunstoppable unless you got 4+ DDs on you (and even then...not much dice).

Changing Vengeance's bleed damage would imbalance the spec in pve because the bleeds + abilities that apply bleeds already account for 55ish % of its damage. In pve the spec could use a higher proc chance on Ravage, but that doesn't do much for pvp because of Ravage's functionality in PvP. Theoretically they could add an armor pen component to Pooled Hatred since pve players still wouldn't take it due to how stacks are applied so there wouldn't be a balance issue.

 

My biggest concern in PvP is actually Rage. The marauder counterpart has so much more survivability it's ridiculous.

My biggest concern in PvP is actually Rage. The marauder counterpart has so much more survivability it's ridiculous.

 

How does it truly stack up with HA armor bonus and shield vs the bonuses Maras get? Serious question.

 

-I completely understand defensive roll is a huge deal (30% vs AOE)

-20% of 5% is 1% DR on the shield (so...who cares sorta)

-Maras have 4% overall, duration increase to their 20% DR Skill (Which pretty much makes it last the full 30) in the tree itself.

-Juggs get 6% vs Force attacks.

 

But where does the armor difference stack up in that in terms of mitigation? And in practice given it doesn't work vs everything?

Changing Vengeance's bleed damage would imbalance the spec in pve because the bleeds + abilities that apply bleeds already account for 55ish % of its damage. In pve the spec could use a higher proc chance on Ravage, but that doesn't do much for pvp because of Ravage's functionality in PvP.

 

Agreed, I'm all for making Vengeance super over powered but that won't happen, and realistic buff would have to be minimal. Ssfish has a good idea in another thread, to paraphrase/throw in a couple of my own ideas, using shatter or impale stacks a buff called rampage that increases rampages proc chance by 5% a stack and is consumed when you do proc. Something minimal like that would be awesome, although maybe not helpful in PVP still.

Agreed, I'm all for making Vengeance super over powered but that won't happen, and realistic buff would have to be minimal. Ssfish has a good idea in another thread, to paraphrase/throw in a couple of my own ideas, using shatter or impale stacks a buff called rampage that increases rampages proc chance by 5% a stack and is consumed when you do proc. Something minimal like that would be awesome, although maybe not helpful in PVP still.

 

Disagree on this one. Increasing the chances for more ravages, although potentially useful in pvp (I would use the free proc for 2hits, then continue), isn't the solution we need for vengeance.

 

Once again I point towards "seething hatred", and suggest a duplicity revamp, that allows functionality in pvp and pve.

 

If we stay in the vein of consuming procs, then I'd wholeheartedly introduce a stackable crit buff that could be consumed allowing a few seconds of across-the-board crit increase. By doing this we as players could decide when to use the burst, for said ability would ultimately go on cooldown, OR take time to re-stack to full potential.

 

 

Cooldowns - Enraged defense (Rage Tree) is quite possibly one of the worst cooldowns in the game. It does practically nothing when fighting someone one on one. When getting focused by multiple people it is absolutely useless. I think that it should be either completely redesigned or changed to the one in the vengeance tree with the new improvements I mentioned above.

 

.

 

 

I agree sooo much lol. I would absolutely die to see "enraged defence", get worked over. Having the new "enraged defence" provide reliable defence mitigation, would probably make me drop vengeance and return to my roots.

 

The goal here guys is to find balance and beauty within each spec.

Make pooled hatred a flat dmg increase for the duration, this would make our ravage hit HARD

I like the idea of an alacrity buff off leap. It would certainly help with burst in PvP, particularly by getting the entire Ravage channel within the Unstoppable buff.

 

As far as PvE, leap is used relatively infrequently in raids, and with a buff such as this, it would turn the ability into a situational tool - deciding whether to use it for the mobility it provides, or timing it to lead into an Alacrity-buffed Ravage. Certainly, with the flat 30% proposed, it would be inefficient to leap with our big abilities on CD, but that may be necessary to keep up with a mobile fight. It's benefit to overall DPS in PvE would be dependent entirely upon the RNG of procs, which would keep it from being an overwhelming/overpowering change for PvE.

 

I get that this is a PvP-focused thread, but no changes should realistically be considered in the vacuum of PvE or PvP, as changes will impact both fields of play.

I like the idea of an alacrity buff off leap. It would certainly help with burst in PvP, particularly by getting the entire Ravage channel within the Unstoppable buff.

 

As far as PvE, leap is used relatively infrequently in raids, and with a buff such as this, it would turn the ability into a situational tool - deciding whether to use it for the mobility it provides, or timing it to lead into an Alacrity-buffed Ravage. Certainly, with the flat 30% proposed, it would be inefficient to leap with our big abilities on CD, but that may be necessary to keep up with a mobile fight. It's benefit to overall DPS in PvE would be dependent entirely upon the RNG of procs, which would keep it from being an overwhelming/overpowering change for PvE.

 

I get that this is a PvP-focused thread, but no changes should realistically be considered in the vacuum of PvE or PvP, as changes will impact both fields of play.

 

I'm glad you've commented on how alacrity boost is redundant...even for you. Would you consider approaching some of the other ideas, I'd like to read what you say.

I was under the impression that alacrity specificaly didn't affect ravage? Or am i getting confused with force choke, because it doesn't effect that for obvious reasons. I like the idea of an on demand faster ravage that can be used situationaly, and charge seems like a good place to put it, but it would be awkward to take advantage of in an ops encounter. Maybe attatch it to enrage instead?

 

I was brainstorming some ideas about enraged defense, but I keep coming back to just making it a regular threat dump ability in its base form (no rage cost, no heal, just a flat threat dump like chaff flare), and then revamping from passion/defeaning defense to make it a compelling cooldown to use with unique effects for each dps spec.

Seething Hatred should do something like - Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream, Vicious Throw, & your bleed effects by 15/30%.

 

Please?

Seething Hatred should do something like - Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream, Vicious Throw, & your bleed effects by 15/30%.

 

Please?

 

I could see force scream having that applied, but remember...if we beef up vengeance dps, we also must increase rage spec's defencive capabilities.

I'm glad you've commented on how alacrity boost is redundant...even for you. Would you consider approaching some of the other ideas, I'd like to read what you say.

 

I apologize in advance for any... rambling or unclear thoughts. I'm not quite on top of things right now given some personal events that have taken place over the last 24 hours.

 

I'm still getting caught up on the conversation... It really should go without saying that any changes with DPS need to start with an examination of Enraged Defense. With PTs getting their threat dump, there is no reason for ours to remain this rediculous mashup of want-to-be defensive cooldown, rage eater, and threat dump. Don't get me wrong, the Veng version is amazing, hampered only by the Rage cost. The problem for PvE, is you have to hold it for the defensive cooldown. if you have to use it as a threat dump you are essentially wasting its defensive advantages.

 

Split the ability apart and give us PvE Juggs that still pull threat on occasion a reasonable threat dump and redesign the other half of the ability to provide a good defensive cooldown for DPS Juggs (while finding a way to not give Immortal yet another great tool). How to achieve that, I don't rightly know at this juncture.

I'm glad you've commented on how alacrity boost is redundant...even for you. Would you consider approaching some of the other ideas, I'd like to read what you say.

 

I apologize in advance for any... rambling or unclear thoughts. I'm not quite on top of things right now given some personal events that have taken place over the last 24 hours.

 

I'm still getting caught up on the conversation... It really should go without saying that any changes with DPS need to start with an examination of Enraged Defense. With PTs getting their threat dump, there is no reason for ours to remain this rediculous mashup of want-to-be defensive cooldown, rage eater, and threat dump. Don't get me wrong, the Veng version is amazing, hampered only by the Rage cost. The problem for PvE, is you have to hold it for the defensive cooldown. if you have to use it as a threat dump you are essentially wasting its defensive advantages.

 

Split the ability apart and give us PvE Juggs that still pull threat on occasion a reasonable threat dump and redesign the other half of the ability to provide a good defensive cooldown for DPS Juggs (while finding a way to not give Immortal yet another great tool). How to achieve that, I don't rightly know at this juncture.

I could see force scream having that applied, but remember...if we beef up vengeance dps, we also must increase rage spec's defencive capabilities.

 

Well rage already has insane amounts of burst and now with cascading power it has good sustain, the only thing i could see doing to their defense is making it so they get a skill that makes it so enraged defense doesn't spend rage to heal and maybe increases the heal or something. So redesign through passion so it's - Enraged defense has a 50%/100% chance to not spend rage to heal you when you take damage and maybe on activation it instantly heals you for like 10%? like Overcharge Saber.

Edited July 31, 2013 by PowerReaper

Well rage already has insane amounts of burst and now with cascading power it has good sustain, the only thing i could see doing to their defense is making it so they get a skill that makes it so enraged defense doesn't spend rage to heal and maybe increases the heal or something. So redesign through passion so it's - Enraged defense has a 50%/100% chance to not spend rage to heal you when you take damage and maybe on activation it instantly heals you for like 10%? like Overcharge Saber.

 

No sorry. There isn't anything wrong with spending rage. Enraged Defence must provide temporary defence, 1st above all else. Reworking Enraged Defence for each tree is essential. Allowing players to spend feat points on their respective version of Enraged Defence, within their own trees should be our ultimate goal.

 

- immortal tree version serves as substantial self heal.

 

- vengeance tree stays about the same.( see imarl's suggestion^).

 

- rage tree version must be changed to a version similar to the vengeance tree. That would hinge on a modest dps boosting ability to the vengeance tree as well.

I think there is consensus that Vengeance needs a bit of love wither in PvP or PvE. And while every one seem to be hating enraged defense, considering its cool down, the over abundance of rage in rage spec at least and the existence of of multiple defensive capabilities, calling for a buff for it seems quite outreaching.

I think there is consensus that Vengeance needs a bit of love wither in PvP or PvE. And while every one seem to be hating enraged defense, considering its cool down, the over abundance of rage in rage spec at least and the existence of of multiple defensive capabilities, calling for a buff for it seems quite outreaching.

 

hehe, please elaborate. Enraged Defence in the rage tree needs to include a temporary damage mitigation ability. Like all the others, it should require feat points. Shi-cho would benefit greatly from this.

I think making the enraged defense for each tree unique is the best route. For rage I would personally like a substantial mitigation for the first attack and it diminishes for each attack during the duration. Or even the defensive version of Force Crush. Starts with 50% (we can easily adjust this to like 30% so it's inline with veng) mitigation and drops by 5% every second. This way it becomes a higher skill cap like saber reflect. You have to time it to make the most of the mitigationfrom the ability. I almost exclusively play rage for regs and tank for RWZs. I enjoy the play style of veng, just doesn't have that oomf I enjoy from rage.

I apologize in advance for any... rambling or unclear thoughts. I'm not quite on top of things right now given some personal events that have taken place over the last 24 hours.

 

I'm still getting caught up on the conversation... It really should go without saying that any changes with DPS need to start with an examination of Enraged Defense. With PTs getting their threat dump, there is no reason for ours to remain this rediculous mashup of want-to-be defensive cooldown, rage eater, and threat dump. Don't get me wrong, the Veng version is amazing, hampered only by the Rage cost. The problem for PvE, is you have to hold it for the defensive cooldown. if you have to use it as a threat dump you are essentially wasting its defensive advantages.

 

Split the ability apart and give us PvE Juggs that still pull threat on occasion a reasonable threat dump and redesign the other half of the ability to provide a good defensive cooldown for DPS Juggs (while finding a way to not give Immortal yet another great tool). How to achieve that, I don't rightly know at this juncture.

 

Here is a couple of ideas i had for enraged defense and for a threat dump for juggernaut.

 

1. Redesign taunt for all the tank classes. Each one of the tanks uses stances so just make aoe taunt work as a threat dump in dps stance( sins don't have a real threat dump either, and operatives have both cloak and threat dump). All other classes have 45 second threat dumps and aoe taunt is 45 seconds as well. The threat dump added to the powertech can be removed.

 

2. Enraged defense redesigned as a free 15% heal and 15% damage reduction, but it can't be used in soresu form. Remove the damage reduction upgrade in vengeance and replace the cost reduction talent in rage with something else.

 

I believe this is a good starting point as it provides vengeance and rage a good defensive cool down without adding another to immortal and unbalancing the tanks, and provides a real threat dump to all three tank AC's which none had previous to 2.0.

Edited July 31, 2013 by GalenMourne

Here is a couple of ideas i had for enraged defense and for a threat dump for juggernaut.

 

1. Redesign taunt for all the tank classes. Each one of the tanks uses stances so just make aoe taunt work as a threat dump in dps stance( sins don't have a real threat dump either, and operatives have both cloak and threat dump). All other classes have 45 second threat dumps and aoe taunt is 45 seconds as well. The threat dump added to the powertech can be removed.

 

2. Enraged defense redesigned as a free 15% heal and 15% damage reduction, but it can't be used in soresu form. Remove the damage reduction upgrade in vengeance and replace the cost reduction talent in rage with something else.

 

I believe this is a good starting point as it provides vengeance and rage a good defensive cool down without adding another to immortal and unbalancing the tanks, and provides a real threat dump to all three tank AC's which none had previous to 2.0.

 

Making the aoe taunt a threat dump and linking taunts to tank stance is a VERY bad idea sorry. It would do more harm than good, taunts in PvP are a huge boost to the outcome of a battle and restricting them to tanks will only make the good classes stand out even more and Cut some Great Utility for Dps jugs

 

On the whole Enraged defence is a great ability, that just needs abit of tweaking, as it is its fine for venge, the heal mechanic is fine just need adjusting and u can couple it with Endure Pain to get the most out of the heal.

 

The changes i would make to it is 1stly Remove the activation cost. its the only Threat dump in game that costs resources and its ALOT ( 1/3 our total resource)

Remove the threat Dump while in soresu form, This would make it useful in PvE as a mini CD, its fine for tanks in PvP,

and for Rage i love the idea of a DR defensive buff, Kudos on that idea

Edited August 1, 2013 by Shadowhispers