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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
10.13.2017 , 03:25 AM | #191
That's exactly the point I was making.
I agree with Eudoxia that balance should take group utility into consideration.
The problem is, as I said above, and you reinforced with your statement about stealth rezz and mobility on Deception: What qualifies as a group utility, what doesn't and how do rank them against each other? There's no universal answer that everybody will agree upon with this. Like with every other way to balance.
The next thing about balance is, as a dev team, you have to agree on a method by which you want to balance and then balance accordingly. Because there is no universal, magical balance that everybody agrees on. But as long as you, as a game dev, manage to balance according to your set balance strategy, it's fine. And Imo Bio does a rather good job at this atm. Sure, there are outliers that still need some tweaking(Hatred anybody?) but overall, the results of their nerfs can't be neglected. They pretty much reached their goal with almost all classes.
I don't have to agree with this balance strategy, but it is what they use and they use it quite well overall.

In fact, I don't like the way, Bioware balances atm, with ranking classes based on melee and ranged + burst or sustained. Imo it should be only burst vs sustained because any melee class is capable of transferring as much of it's dummy dps to a real fight, as a ranged is in PvE. If it's not the case either your tanks are crap(force downtime on you due to bad boss positioning) or the melee is crap. Or you get trolled by your sorcs constantly pulling you away or placing voids around the boss
So imo it should be sutained above burst classes, no matter if ranged or melee and ranked due to utility somehow, where the classes with less utility do the most damage and high utiliy sustained classes do comparable damage to no utility burst classes.
As already mentioned, the problem is how to rank utilities against each other.
Another problem to fit in are hybrid specs like vengeance or Engineering, that are neither pure burst, pure sustained, nor pure AoE classes. Not quite sure where they would fit in.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.13.2017 , 05:02 AM | #192
Quote: Originally Posted by Torvai View Post
That's exactly the point I was making.
I agree with Eudoxia that balance should take group utility into consideration.
The problem is, as I said above, and you reinforced with your statement about stealth rezz and mobility on Deception: What qualifies as a group utility, what doesn't and how do rank them against each other? There's no universal answer that everybody will agree upon with this. Like with every other way to balance.
The next thing about balance is, as a dev team, you have to agree on a method by which you want to balance and then balance accordingly. Because there is no universal, magical balance that everybody agrees on. But as long as you, as a game dev, manage to balance according to your set balance strategy, it's fine. And Imo Bio does a rather good job at this atm. Sure, there are outliers that still need some tweaking(Hatred anybody?) but overall, the results of their nerfs can't be neglected. They pretty much reached their goal with almost all classes.
I don't have to agree with this balance strategy, but it is what they use and they use it quite well overall.
For your answer about the dps loss, it's about 800dps on a "normal" parse. I was parsing at 9k8 on a dummy without forcing myself, now I'm down to 9k. It's worst on boss fight, as it should be, as me and others where around 8k5 on a somewhat normal boss (movement required, defensive ability, trashmob...) we're down around 7k5 which is terrible. Again, as for raid utility, Deception doesn't have one except its damage (Stealth Rez ? Lul, Force Cloak is in our rotation, always on cd. And you should never call "Stealth Rez" a group utility, because it means your group is bad if you have to use it ^^' )

The problem with their current balance strategy is that they take a theorical value, with a defined rotation (that we still have to hear about) and parse on a dummy. They balance class around dummy and then said class have to fight a boss that have the same dps requirement as the dummy. Except that this boss isn't a dummy, therefore it will impact greatly your dps, due to mechanics.
The problem being also nerf that weren't needed or badly handled nerf.
Take the 3 healers for example, where they sure nerfed them, but not correctly, not in a way that was enjoyable for the players. They transformed sorc healer into a very slow healer with a weaker burst that cost an arm to pull off.
The class is almost nothing compared to what it used to be. I would have been fine with "Quick on demand burst but with a really strong cost". Or even "Slow heal with a not so great burst but with low cost". Instead I got everything at once. The same can be said about Operative Healer, where they made the class very hard to play (no burst improvement at all, reduced TA gain, reduced energy regeneration...). The funny part still is merc, where they nerfed its hps... Without realising that 10% of it was done by the broken utility it has.

It's the same as Arsenal merc you see ? The dps nerf wasn't asked, really. Nobody asked for it. Peoples just wanted to see those broken defensive go away. Instead they got hit with a nerf as big as Deception, and got to keep their defensive ability. ^^'

Let's also talk about Carnage, who was also nerfed to be "in range", and still Parse way ahead of most spec in the game (fine by me, Carnage is a spec that needs a good part of skill, along with a good part of meth to keep up with the required apm ) or Hatred, who should have been brought to its target dps along with madness... Still doesn't see them in a raid as "main dps". That's strange don't you think ?

I've got really nothing about class balance. The idea is completely normal to me. What isn't normal however is the class balance we've been given, which destroy spec that didn't need to be destroyed, or just plainly don't solve the right problem at all, instead creating another one.


Quote: Originally Posted by FlavivsAetivs View Post

This class would still benefit a lot from undoing the RNG procs and giving it an actual rotation, TBQH. It also still needs the soft position requirement removed.
Actually, maybe keep the rng but make it less consistent. A priority system is what have made this class famous and so different from other, I don't see the utility of removing it. The soft position requirement is a nice idea, but it is way too much impacted by desync right now. Fix those desync and the position requirement can stay.
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Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
10.18.2017 , 06:57 AM | #193
Have you even read what I said? There's no universal balance that everyone agrees on. Not here, not in WoW, Overwatch or any other multiplayer game. This very discussion proves that.
What Devs do is agree how they should balance and then get to work.
And for this round of balance patches Bio said they're concentrating on dps, dtps and hps numbers. And so far they did a good job at their set goal. If you don't like it or not is a completely different topic.
Are there specs that still need attention? Sure, but apart from that they reached their set goal.
I don't agree with their strategy. You obviously don't, too. Thing is it doesn't matter. It is what they use.

Other than that: No spec was "destroyed". Arsenal players like to whine, sure. But Arsenal is still more than capable of doing enough damage to meet any dps check. That's a simple fact.
And just so you know what I mean with "Bio did a good job according to their set goals":

Based on the top parse on the 2.5mio dummy, ranged burst:
Arsenal 9357, Marksman 9318, Lightning 9580
Next up, ranged sustained and melee burst:
Engineering 10356, IO 10207, Virulence 10388, Deception 10056, Rage 10041, Fury 10789, Carnage 10660, Madness 9704
Top tier, melee sustained:
Pyrotech 10521, Hatred 10226, Vengeance 10385, Annihilation 10437, Lethality 10750

It's not perfect, there are still outliers which needs a little tweaking(Carnage, Fury, Madness, Lethality), but overall it's rather good.
I still don't agree with their current balance strategy, but within it, they did good.

Exocor's Avatar


Exocor
10.19.2017 , 08:04 AM | #194
So, yesterday a friend of mine and me were both assasine-dps in the same operation (Asation) and the results were very interesting. He, a very good dps at any class, is one of the top decepton-players (and usually the best one in our raiding group). Me, that I am usually tanking most of the time, was trying hatred. I have to add, that I am usually not very good at dpsing. My dps are mostly sufficient, but not overwhelming. Due to dps-leaching with dot-spread I was on top of the dps-chart on 3 of 5 bosses, however, the single-target dps on the required targets were very similar. Due to the fact, that, as said before, I am not the best dps at all and were playing this spec for the first time in several weeks, I was very satisfied with the results. In my opinion, the nerf of deception and the buff of hatred both went in the right direction. However, if deception would have been 1 or 2 % higher, it would have been perfect in my opinion. A really good played deception should be more then barely able to compete with a bad played hatred in terms of single target DPS.
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FlavivsAetivs's Avatar


FlavivsAetivs
10.31.2017 , 02:54 PM | #195
So the other day they officially announced the changes to utilities.

Shadow will be loosing its 30% AOE DR passive, which is being turned into a utility. On top of that, it loses the 30% DR during stun utility.

This royally screws shadows even further for a variety of reasons. Although a decent survivability buff for hatred to a certain degree, both classes lose a vital 30% DR that's critical to the way they're played. Having 30% DR while stunned kept this class viable in Ranked PvP and in PvP in general, because the easiest way to win a ranked match with a DPS shadow in it is to kill the shadow first due to how squishy the class is - picking the stun DR prevented that from happening.

We also now can't take our other utilities in general PvP, like the force wave root, or the 25% AOE damage increase on whirling blow (and whatever the imp one is called).

It also affects deception on NiM Styrak now. We now have to pick between AOE Damage reduction (a mandatory utility due to the change) and the root utility on that fight. Which makes the class even less viable on top of the fact its DPS has been badly over-nerfed to the point where it's no longer viable anyways.

This is why I again plead Bioware to not follow through with these changes. They are game-breaking for the Shadow DPS classes.
A.K.A. Magister Militum Flavius Aetius
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Iona_Var's Avatar


Iona_Var
11.03.2017 , 11:57 AM | #196
I can understand infiltration needed to be toned down a bit but not as much as they did. In the most practical sense, the only really raid utility infiltration brings is it's burst dps. In most cases that I've been in, you're not going to stealth rez someone in the middle of a MM or even VM pull, so don't call stealth rez a raid utility. You also shouldn't call infiltration's mobility a viable utility. Yes it does make a difference with being able to have more dps uptime on the boss, but it doesn't make a huge difference as some may think.

And then now with the change to one of our utilities/abilities, effectively reducing our DR, is just absurd. Yes serenity needs love in the DR department. But infiltration shouldn't have to suffer for it.

I love my shadow, and I'll continue to play my shadow till the game shuts down, but it just makes no sense that they finally had infiltration in a fairly good place, and then nerfed it to be less than desirable in raids again. Seriously, other than infiltration's burst and it's(current, not future)DR, what does the spec bring to the table for progression raiding?
"Fight all you want. In the end, we will prevail." -Dread Master Calphayus

Exocor's Avatar


Exocor
11.03.2017 , 12:15 PM | #197
Quote: Originally Posted by Iona_Var View Post
I can understand infiltration needed to be toned down a bit but not as much as they did. In the most practical sense, the only really raid utility infiltration brings is it's burst dps. In most cases that I've been in, you're not going to stealth rez someone in the middle of a MM or even VM pull, so don't call stealth rez a raid utility.
Stealth rezzing is a very helpful raid utility. Especially for Deceptions or Darkness-Sins, who don't have to wait until some hots or dots fall of. I don't know your special raid experience, but there is no raid night, where we don't use a stealth rez. Just watch this.

In terms of raiding, the only fight, where I miss the stun-DR is Brontes NiM final Burn. And there we have plenty of other dcd's (especially force speed, that we can use for every fire&forget). So, in my opinion, it's not a great loss for pve/raidcontent.
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Kirtastropohe's Avatar


Kirtastropohe
11.17.2017 , 09:41 AM | #198
For PvP, the loss of DR when stunned will be a very crushing blow, especially on top of that they already did to infiltration in 5.5. Not so bad in a 1v1, but when you get in the middle of the main battle near a door on a voidstar or whatever, the land of chain stuns, this loss of the 30% DR will mean there is no hope for a healer to keep us alive. It's a good thing we can get away using our phase walk...eer, nope we don't have that anymore. We're screwed.

It really disheartens me that the devs didn't listen to the very good points made when these utility changes were first announced. They sure as heck listened to sentinels/marauders about their changes and made an adjustment. I think they should take a step back and not nerf us into the ground.

FlyXan's Avatar


FlyXan
11.17.2017 , 09:45 AM | #199
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirtastropohe View Post
For PvP, the loss of DR when stunned will be a very crushing blow, especially on top of that they already did to infiltration in 5.5. Not so bad in a 1v1, but when you get in the middle of the main battle near a door on a voidstar or whatever, the land of chain stuns, this loss of the 30% DR will mean there is no hope for a healer to keep us alive. It's a good thing we can get away using our phase walk...eer, nope we don't have that anymore. We're screwed.

It really disheartens me that the devs didn't listen to the very good points made when these utility changes were first announced. They sure as heck listened to sentinels/marauders about their changes and made an adjustment. I think they should take a step back and not nerf us into the ground.
Maybe we should cry as much and as loud as Carnage maras did about their precious Ferocity so BW will hear us as well.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
11.18.2017 , 11:38 AM | #200
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyXan View Post
Maybe we should cry as much and as loud as Carnage maras did about their precious Ferocity so BW will hear us as well.
Or juste abuse even more the system by playing skank. Seems like it's what they want anyway...

But yeah, still waiting for an explanation as to why they nerfed both hatred and Deception for what should have been a buff to hatred.
And if it isn't a nerf, I'm still waiting for an explanation as well, currently the information relayed doesn't make sense at all, especially if you consider that some ranged class (mercenary) got to keep the whole utility.
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