I think everyone tends to forget that at least by the wording of the talent when in blood frenzy you increase the chance to crit by 100% not that you have a 100% chance to crit when you have blood frenzy up. I have at least once had blood frenzy up and not crit with force scream. However whats really starting to tune up my damage is pumping crit as much as I can not so much surge or power but crit. for my carnage build I am mostly focused on strength, crit and endurance, with any surge I can pour in as a fourth stat. Basically to me carnage is a crit build.

Then you arent paying attention to your blood frenzy. 100% crit is 100% crit, whether its adding tot he base amount or not. My Force scream will always crit when blood frenzy is up, The only Time i have ever seen Scream not crit was when i was not paying attention and only thought I had a blood frenzy available, only to quickly remember, I have not used Massacre in awhile. Also there is like a 1 sec pause after blood frenzy ends before itll get reapplied even with spamming massacre. You just gotta pay attention to that little burning fist icon.

There's a lot you're misunderstanding.

 

1. If a tree has talents that increase your chance to crit how does additional crit gain value? It doesn't. Talents like "Bleedout" which increases crit damage cause crit to gain value. Carnage has a similar talent.

 

2. If Carnage's insta-crit mechanic causes power to gain value then wouldn't Annihilation's insta-crit mechanic also cause power to gain value?

 

3. There is a difference between "forms of damage" and "amount of damage". I proved Annihilation does more DPS. They both have similar percentages of their damage come from similar sources. Force Scream and Ataru Form are Carnage's equivalent to Bleeds.

 

4. Both trees have a 30% crit damage talent(although Annihl's is broken). Both trees have force/internal damage that makes up a significant portion of their DPS(exact values are hard to know at this point). I don't understand why you think they have vastly different stat weights.

tumri have you tried stacking a whole bunch of crit chance in the carnage spec try it out I want to see what numbers you get for sacrificing everything you can into crit chance. Not even trying to say I am right wit this, but if your in a position where you can test this out I would like to see your number crunch on it.

My guild's GM made a video pre-launch explaining theorycraft basics for Tormonger. Watch it. It's impossible to argue with you two when you can't even understand how things work. I'm not going to argue against your "feelings". It's becoming very tiring and I'm starting to not make sense as I try and explain the same thing 10 different ways hoping you somehow get it.

 

you cannot "argue" with math. But you do not understand the math so there is no point in talking to you about it.

Sorry but inately crit is onyl good to a certain point. with this game and with Marauders it gets less valuble after 25% because of 5% from IAs and with the 100% abilities. Sorry you do not grasp that but it is a mathmatical FACT.

Math does not lie, it cannot be incorrect (when done right).

you cannot "argue" with math. But you do not understand the math so there is no point in talking to you about it.

Stop pretending to be using math. You're going off gut feeling. Show me your "math" if it exists.

Then you arent paying attention to your blood frenzy. 100% crit is 100% crit, whether its adding tot he base amount or not. My Force scream will always crit when blood frenzy is up, The only Time i have ever seen Scream not crit was when i was not paying attention and only thought I had a blood frenzy available, only to quickly remember, I have not used Massacre in awhile. Also there is like a 1 sec pause after blood frenzy ends before itll get reapplied even with spamming massacre. You just gotta pay attention to that little burning fist icon.

I do watch the little fist it's where the bulk of my damage comes from I only throw my scream when I see that fist show up and i have done that and still hit for my normal amount of damage. also to be on topic with the original part of this thread yeah I noticed this on the world boss for DK good to know I just need to clip into his chest to proc ataru hits.

Stop pretending to be using math. You're going off gut feeling. Show me your "math" if it exists.

lol its basics. The more crit you have the less good it is. Its a diminishing stat no matter what by its vary nature.

ok i'll try to make it simple.

25% base crit. add 5% to IA buff that equals 30, 15% from juyo form that makes your dots have a 45% chance to crit. The more crit you have the less gain you get because you lready crit so often.

Crit is a very very good stat when you have a small amount as it will greatly increase you damage however the higher you get the less return you see because you are already critting more often.

Once you crit every other dot tick roughly crit because a useless stat as you need greater amounts to see any kind of return, in this game you cannot get enough to see that return.

Its has always been that way and will always be that way because it is MATH. it is not a feeling its a fact.

Stop pretending to be using math. You're going off gut feeling. Show me your "math" if it exists.

The video you linked was very outdated and flawed(based on ideas from wow?), the tooltips show the current damage you will do after all other stats are applied. Try it, go look at the damage your vicous slash does and then take off a piece of gear and watch it go down. The tooltip is accurate. Mine says 1200 damage and i typically do 800-1200 damage per hit(after the targets defenses are calculated obviously)

Hey ProjectAwesome thanks for bringing this bug up. I never knew about it but yours is one of the more constructive and helpful posts I've seen in a while. No flaming, no hate, just the facts. Love it. I wish more people behaved like that on these forums. And surprise surprise! BioWare responded to it, probably for those very reasons.

Good job

lol its basics. The more crit you have the less good it is. Its a diminishing stat no matter what by its vary nature.

 

 

 

ok i'll try to make it simple.

 

 

25% base crit. add 5% to IA buff that equals 30, 15% from juyo form that makes your dots have a 45% chance to crit. The more crit you have the less gain you get because you lready crit so often.

 

 

Crit is a very very good stat when you have a small amount as it will greatly increase you damage however the higher you get the less return you see because you are already critting more often.

 

 

Once you crit every other dot tick roughly crit because a useless stat as you need greater amounts to see any kind of return, in this game you cannot get enough to see that return.

 

 

Its has always been that way and will always be that way because it is MATH. it is not a feeling its a fact.

That's not math. That's you deciding that 25% crit is the magical end of crit's usefulness.

"get the less return you see because you are already critting more often."

First half of this: Yes

Second half of this: No.

"Because you already crit more often" is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

---

I'm done. I've decided that this is no longer worth my time.

Why are we going about +crit vs. +power?

Isn't +Accuracy rating the better of the two?

Why are we going about +crit vs. +power?

 

Isn't +Accuracy rating the better of the two?

as carnage specc im lvl 36 and my acuracy is already at 100% i literally have like no reason to put more points in it. let me rephrase i have no reason to put any points in it as i always hit with normal attacks and with my specials i even negate their defenses with a 106% rating. yet again i have no pints in acuracy. although if you can pick it up somewhere it is nothing to shake a stick at.

That's not math. That's you deciding that 25% crit is the magical end of crit's usefulness.

 

"get the less return you see because you are already critting more often."

 

First half of this: Yes

 

Second half of this: No.

 

"Because you already crit more often" is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

 

---

 

I'm done. I've decided that this is no longer worth my time.

see you lack the ability to understand what a diminishing return is, because of that you can never understand the math behind it. Because you lack understanding you just claim its wrong. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't make it wrong.

I used 25% as a starting point i never said that is all that was good, however you get greater diminishing returns the more you get. Until you can understand simply math you will never be able to understand the more complex stuff. Your video is garbage, its acutally comical how terrible it is.

it never will. by the math you need 100% crit damage and you would need to have over 50% chance to crit at the start to make it mathmatically possible.

What the ****.

I have 110% crit damage on Massacre. 120% when I hit a relic.

Also, a higher base chance to crit reduces the value of each percent of crit, working against my prior statement.

Also, you mentioned 1% damage which isn't actually relevant, since the stat tradeoff is power. Power does not directly translate to "% damage".

Don't even start.

see you lack the ability to understand what a diminishing return is, because of that you can never understand the math behind it. Because you lack understanding you just claim its wrong. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't make it wrong.

 

 

I used 25% as a starting point i never said that is all that was good, however you get greater diminishing returns the more you get. Until you can understand simply math you will never be able to understand the more complex stuff. Your video is garbage, its acutally comical how terrible it is.

Now I COULD be wrong but.....isn't deminishing returns basically this:

(Hypothetical Numbers btw) If you have 25% crit chance and you add 10 crit rating and get 5% more to be at 30% crit chance then add 10 more rating and only get 4% to be at a total of 34% crit chance. Basically the more crit % you have the less % you get from each point of rating.

That's WoW's definition of diminishing returns I believe.

 

 

 

I'm not 100% sure that's the right choice but nobody knows what accuracy is good for right now. I'm just extremely opposed to the idea that the devs would give us a ridiculous amount of accuracy while leaving it a useless stat.

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet as I noticed some people apparently don't realize that having higher than 100% Accuracy is a good thing.

Every little bit of Accuracy (regardless of character) will make your attacks that much harder to resist, dodge/evade, or mitigate by your intended target. Proof?...just highlight the stat on your character page.

Now I COULD be wrong but.....isn't deminishing returns basically this:.

There are 2 types of diminishing returns. The first type in current MMORPGs is a specific characteristic of conversion formulae -- in SWTOR, the conversion of all "RATING" stats to "PERCENT". Surge rating returns less and less % for every rating point you have.

The second type is more general: diminishing marginal returns. This is more a function of economics and alternative cost. Diminishing marginal returns refers to "HOW MUCH DOES THAT LAST POINT MATTER?" Say you have 100 strength. A 20 str buff will increase your damage by 20%. Say you have 1,000,000 strength. The 20 str buff will increase your damage by .002%. It basically says that stacking more of the same stuff isn't effective compared to stacking the OTHER stat that multiplies it.

Hizoka was referring to some flavor of diminishing marginal returns, even if it was irrelevant to the argument (when evaluating marginal returns, you need to know what the base value is -- do you have 100str or 1 mil? in this case, no one's put forth general base values for crit in the first place).

The other poster was highlighting the fact that SWTOR actually has straight DR included in the conversion formulae, which Hizoka is more or less mentally ignoring.

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet as I noticed some people apparently don't realize that having higher than 100% Accuracy is a good thing.

 

Every little bit of Accuracy (regardless of character) will make your attacks that much harder to resist, dodge/evade, or mitigate by your intended target. Proof?...just highlight the stat on your character page.

No one is disputing that. but your target only has a certain amount of resistances to bypass. What the issue was is as Carnage you get enough accuracy to bypass all the defenses you can at an early stage. Also which Accuracy stat do you pay attention too? Basic accurcacy, base of 90% or Special Accuracy base at 100%

Base player defense is 5%, Sorc have 10%. You only need 105% to bypass that(not inculding tanks, lets leave them out of this, they are made to take and avoid damage) With full Battlemaster, Ataru, Narrow Hatred, I will have 105% Normal accuracy(115% special). You know what that means? in order to have enough accuracy to never miss a target, you have to roll Carnage. I have no idea what the base defense of a boss in an OP is, I jsut feel there is no way to reach that point where you never miss using Basic Accuracy.

If all our attacks use special Accuracy then you only need to get 5% accuracy(150 accuracy rating) meaning Carnage already reaches this after getting Narrow Hatred and Ataru Form at lvl 20. This sounds more reasonable and realistic. So whats Basica Accuracy for anyways? We dont do regular WoW type White damage(try it right click a mob in combat, itll do Assault as default)

as carnage specc im lvl 36 and my acuracy is already at 100% i literally have like no reason to put more points in it. let me rephrase i have no reason to put any points in it as i always hit with normal attacks and with my specials i even negate their defenses with a 106% rating. yet again i have no pints in acuracy. although if you can pick it up somewhere it is nothing to shake a stick at.

Yes. Enhancement mod.

I'm not sure if anyone has answered this yet as I noticed some people apparently don't realize that having higher than 100% Accuracy is a good thing.

 

Every little bit of Accuracy (regardless of character) will make your attacks that much harder to resist, dodge/evade, or mitigate by your intended target. Proof?...just highlight the stat on your character page.

I mentioned that, but apparently, no-believer... don't ask me why *gasps*

Has anyone noticed the increase in speed from defensive forms while in Ataru Form cause I played from levels 1 to 50 with a friend and saw no noticable change in my speed against his when I went into the form with defensive forums.

This could be a bug as well that needs looking into.

On the whole Carnage and Ataru form really needs some looking into for the most acrobatic of the forms it doesn't seem to offer as much as the other forms do and with it mis firing or not working at all makes it in need of the devs to work on it.

Has anyone noticed the increase in speed from defensive forms while in Ataru Form cause I played from levels 1 to 50 with a friend and saw no noticable change in my speed against his when I went into the form with defensive forums.

 

This could be a bug as well that needs looking into.

 

On the whole Carnage and Ataru form really needs some looking into for the most acrobatic of the forms it doesn't seem to offer as much as the other forms do and with it mis firing or not working at all makes it in need of the devs to work on it.

turn off sprint. it only works in combat where sprint isnt applied

Now I COULD be wrong but.....isn't deminishing returns basically this:

 

(Hypothetical Numbers btw) If you have 25% crit chance and you add 10 crit rating and get 5% more to be at 30% crit chance then add 10 more rating and only get 4% to be at a total of 34% crit chance. Basically the more crit % you have the less % you get from each point of rating.

 

That's WoW's definition of diminishing returns I believe.

you are wrong. Diminishing return means something becomes less effective as you get more of it.

What you stated was an example of a diminishing return, now what diminishing returns are.

you are wrong. Diminishing return means something becomes less effective as you get more of it.

 

 

What you stated was an example of a diminishing return, now what diminishing returns are.

So I wasn't wrong, I just stated a specific example rather than a general concept. Gotcha

Dunno what's happening ITT, but I read the OP and laughed. Was the "huge" pun intentional?

Not intentional but very appropriate it seems. Heh.

Dunno what's happening ITT, but I read the OP and laughed. Was the "huge" pun intentional?

hahaha didn't even notice it till now