I really wish we'd seen KOTET with all the chapters as it was intended to be.

Ditto.

IMHO I believe the hypothesis that Theron was originally meant to be an actual traitor to DS/evil Commanders and a fake-out for LS/more benevolent ones.

I too think that this is what was intended, as it would've made much more sense that way and would've somehow justified a little more the kill option

I really wish we'd seen KOTET with all the chapters as it was intended to be.

Same here, i still think the story would've been better and we'd probably have some reunions that coud've been much better too

Theron got the map to Zildrog. And gave it to the Order - why? If he kept it the Order wouldn't know where ZIldrog is, right?

Theron doing his undercover action just helps the Order too much, he actually creates the threat we then need to fight with.

And single person decisions he makes would be justified if he succeded in the end, but he did not. The whole fleet is blown up, Gravestone is blown up, the damage to PC powerbase is enormous.

My IA who was never "friend" to Republic spy and hates SIS could only thank him in one way.... Obviously working with this SIS moron stopped to pay out. Theron does stupid things and more damage than he is worth, knows way too much - so kill him.

My pragmatic, cunning SI understood the intensions were good, but again - Theron does stupid things and more damage than he is worth, and he greatly offended my SI hiding the truth and going "rogue" like that. Together we could develop much better plan and get better results. So bye, go away.

And my SW who may not be bright enough to fully assess how this could be handled differently and is not interested in being empror anyway, he is just happy that his best pal came back.

Theron got the map to Zildrog. And gave it to the Order - why? If he kept it the Order wouldn't know where ZIldrog is, right?

Theron doing his undercover action just helps the Order too much, he actually creates the threat we then need to fight with.

Sounds like his ancestor Revan in SoR. Hubris must run in the family. Satele talks about her error in fighting Zakuul that got a lot of Jedi killed. Her plan to "capture and convert" the Emperor in the JK storyline smacks of hubris and ends up killing or losing several Masters (including the JK) to easy DS manipulation. And Malcolm unnecessarily gets himself and a lot of people killed trying to seize technology he didn't understand and wouldn't listen to our warnings. And Theron himself got a lot of Jedi and people on both sides killed going into Ziost. All had seemingly good intentions but either didn't think or didn't care about the collateral damage they would cause trying to reach their goal.

The way you put that made me think of it a little differently. I can't tell if that would have been deliberate or coincidental on the writer's part that Theron would not learn from his and his family's past mistakes (who he seems to resent most of the time and you would think he'd deliberately try to not fall into the same pattern).

Her plan to "capture and convert" the Emperor in the JK storyline smacks of hubris and ends up killing or losing several Masters (including the JK) to easy DS manipulation.

Wasn't that Tol Braga's plan though ? Even if she gave permission to execute that plan, and it seems too that she mainly approved because the JK was part of that team as well.

About the rest of what you said it reminds me of the Wizard's Second Rule in the Sword of Truth novels : "The greatest harm can result from the best intentions."

Which seems to be pretty much what happened there.

Though i'd say that the Order probably already knew where the map was and they probably had other ways to get it than Theron

And Malcolm unnecessarily gets himself and a lot of people killed trying to seize technology he didn't understand and wouldn't listen to our warnings.

I wouldn't hold Iokath against Malcom. He's always sounded reasonable before (unlike his kid, what with Ziost and stuff) and it's not really his fault the writers decided to hand him Jupiter-sized idiot ball.

Anyway, now when I played KOTFEeeehehs, Traitor and Ossus in a row, I gotta say Iokath is absolute nadir of writing. It's like Saturday morning cartoon episode of SWTOR. Wooden lifeless replicas of previous characters with brand new bastardized characterizations, everyone talk either in cliches or stock phrases ("I cannot fail! Republic needs me!"), exaggerated reactions to things that should be mundane by now given how common they are -- "It's a superweapon!" (*gasp* Oh no, not one of those things we used to disarm by dozens in our home Galaxy, what should we doooo?!?), "But it's superweapon that is eleven times as potent as previous superweapons superglued together"!!! (Really? Just how do you measure their superweaponizery? Are they like Gilette razors, where iteration N kills trillion gazillion dudes, and brand new improved iteration N+1 kills trillion gazillion dudes + those 5 dudes who escaped previous massacre? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

The only saving grace of the whole Iokath and Traitor mess is voice acting, particularly Theron's who got really lucky with his VA. The man sells the sh†t out of the character, and considering inane script he had to work with it's nothing short of a miracle.

I

 

Anyway, now when I played KOTFEeeehehs, Traitor and Ossus in a row, I gotta say Iokath is absolute nadir of writing.

I said this right after Iokath was released. Drinking game: take a shot every time someone mentions "superweapon" and see if you are still up when story is finished. I doubt, on the other hand, I can't hold my liquor so what do I know.

I had to pinch myself at times. Like, really? Who wrote this masterpiece? 100 monkeys on typewriters? I don't know, the quality of the writing has been so abysmal after KOTET I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. I really don't. I don't try to make sense of it, because there is no sense to make. It is nonsense. I just play through them trying to not think too much about what I have to hear and read. Every time people say "it doesn't make sense to do this or that" I'm like, well yes, what actually does make sense when every story is pure nonsense? Rationalising bad writing is like trying to put an egg back to chickens butt: chicken cries and it doesn't go back no matter how much you try.

Lol, every time I hear Acina saying "It has been too long since I spilled Republic blood" I have to laugh out loud. It is too funny, but not in a good way.

Also, I still don't know how they suddenly found this super-super weapon. I should know, I've played through Iokath that many times. I just zone out when they talk about it.

Troy Baker is my favorite VO, and totally one reason why I like Theron so much. That man can voice act like no ones business. I never get tired of listening to him.

Though i'd say that the Order probably already knew where the map was and they probably had other ways to get it than Theron

How would they have retrieved it after Theron and Valss blew it up and the remains were in the Alliance hands? Had Theron of returned to the Alliance then and there then both the location and the remains of the map would have been in our hands. Even if Gemini 16 was listening the Order wouldn't have had time to get to Nathema before we did.

How would they have retrieved it after Theron and Valss blew it up and the remains were in the Alliance hands? Had Theron of returned to the Alliance then and there then both the location and the remains of the map would have been in our hands. Even if Gemini 16 was listening the Order wouldn't have had time to get to Nathema before we did.

That’s a fair point. Though everything happens pretty fast there and Theron wasn’t counting on you to get there in time probably. And he couldn’t betray them before you get there because Valss is a force user. Theron would have died right away. Should Theron had stopped right there when Valss jumped out? Maybe. Though we don’t know who was on that ship he left on. Heck maybe even Valss blocked him off with the force from jumping out. Also the mere rush of it all didn’t make him think that. So he continued to do what he had in mind in the first place.

I think the mere problem of this story is that it doesn’t have enough time to go into details, specially the chiss part that progresses so little the story. So all that time wasted is all dumped into the prologue ship to nathema.

I think the mere problem of this story is that it doesn’t have enough time to go into details, specially the chiss part that progresses so little the story. So all that time wasted is all dumped into the prologue ship to nathema.

And this is a problem, because unless we're told what was Valss actual part in that story, we can only guess things.

For all we know, Valss may have been part of the Order, tasked with watching over Theron, to make sure he was doing his part as intended, and aven if Valss was not directly part of the order, the transport where they both were before Valss jumped to fight us was very probably filled with members of the Order.

If that's the case, how was Theron supposed to give us the map without being killed right away ?

Wait, though. After Valss jumps out of the shuttle, Theron's alone there, isn't he? That would have been the time to either sabotage the map or figure out how to get it to the Alliance. There's the fair point that GEMINI 16 apparently inexplicably saw and heard everything, but in that case, time for the super secret code from SoR that only Lana and Theron knew.

(and if GEMINI 16 saw and heard everything, wouldn't she have also seen Theron pushing the button on his shuttle to make sure the Alliance got the transmission? If not, and Theron was not under surveillance on his shuttle, all the better time to somehow get a message to the Alliance)

Wait, though. After Valss jumps out of the shuttle, Theron's alone there, isn't he? That would have been the time to either sabotage the map or figure out how to get it to the Alliance. There's the fair point that GEMINI 16 apparently inexplicably saw and heard everything, but in that case, time for the super secret code from SoR that only Lana and Theron knew.

 

(and if GEMINI 16 saw and heard everything, wouldn't she have also seen Theron pushing the button on his shuttle to make sure the Alliance got the transmission? If not, and Theron was not under surveillance on his shuttle, all the better time to somehow get a message to the Alliance)

I believe there was a second Chiss in the shuttle with Theron. At this point there is no map. The coordinates were buried into the minds of Theron and Valss. I don't think Theron or Valss recorded them.

And this is a problem, because unless we're told what was Valss actual part in that story, we can only guess things.

 

For all we know, Valss may have been part of the Order, tasked with watching over Theron, to make sure he was doing his part as intended, and aven if Valss was not directly part of the order, the transport where they both were before Valss jumped to fight us was very probably filled with members of the Order.

If that's the case, how was Theron supposed to give us the map without being killed right away ?

From what we saw there was only one other Chiss with them when they took off. In either case Theron could have easily stunned or killed him.

Valss? It's been over a year and I'm still not sure what his motives were. He could have been a member of the Order of Zildrog or he could secretly working with Theron to defeat the Order.

I believe there was a second Chiss in the shuttle with Theron. At this point there is no map. The coordinates were buried into the minds of Theron and Valss. I don't think Theron or Valss recorded them.

Looking at my recording, it seems you're right and they did destroy the actual map once they got the location they were looking for

From what we saw there was only one other Chiss with them when they took off. In either case Theron could have easily stunned or killed him.

 

Valss? It's been over a year and I'm still not sure what his motives were. He could have been a member of the Order of Zildrog or he could secretly working with Theron to defeat the Order.

There's at least Valss, Theron another Chiss dude (they are the 3 we see) and a pilot in this shuttle (we don't see the pilot, but as the shuttle starts moving right after the other Chiss closes the shuttle's door, it's probable there's at least a 4th person in there, so there could be other people we don't actually see as well).

About Valss, yeah it not clear at all, either he's part of the Oder, in which case his vision skills were not that great or he's heping Theron fight the Order, but if it's the latter, then why did he have to fight us till he died ?

If they destroyed the physical map, and only Valss and Theron saw it, for the love of God, Theron, why didn't you give the Order the wrong coordinates?!

I didn't realize there was a second Chiss in the shuttle, but it does seem as though someone of Theron's combat ability could have bested them. By that point he was already a wanted man on Copero and his connections in House Inrokini had been destroyed so what did he have to lose?

Valss is such a wild card. He says that he had a vision that Theron was successful. But that could be success at either saving the Commander/Odessen or destroying the Fleet and Gravestone, since both technically happened.

Looking at my recording, it seems you're right and they did destroy the actual map once they got the location they were looking for

 

 

There's at least Valss, Theron another Chiss dude (they are the 3 we see) and a pilot in this shuttle (we don't see the pilot, but as the shuttle starts moving while we see the other 3 guys, that means there's at least a 4th person in there, so there could be other people we don't actually see as well).

 

About Valss, yeah it not clear at all, either he's part of the Oder, in which case his vision skills were not that great or he's heping Theron fight the Order, but if it's the latter, then why did he have to fight us till he died ?

Valss jumps out and the other two weren't present when he was at the map, so assuming they dropped him off at his shuttle (which we see him in later - alone) he could have at that moment flown back to Odessen and told us he found the super weapon.

Valss? It could have been anything? Maybe he was trying to prove himself to the Order of Zildrog? Maybe Vinn convinced he we were the big bad? Maybe Theron told him tales about Revan etc and Valss thought he was doing was for the best? Maybe he's a disgruntled Vaylin fan who wants revenge?

I really don't know.

Maybe he feared the Order had a backup plan, maybe GEM-16 got the location as well and staying with the Order was his best chance for us to be able to catch up and stop them, but it's pretty unclear at this point.

Or maybe he wanted the fleet destroyed while saving the Commander, so that he'd be able to fly away with his lover

It's actually pretty frustrating at this point that all that is so open to interpretation and personnal guess, including Valss

I really don't know.

 

Maybe he feared the Order had a backup plan, maybe GEM-16 got the location as well and staying with the Order was his best chance for us to be able to catch up and stop them, but it's pretty unclear at this point.

Or maybe he wanted the fleet destroyed while saving the Commander, so that he'd be able to fly away with his lover

 

It's actually pretty frustrating at this point that all that is so open to interpretation and personnal guess, including Valss

Even if that's true. At this point he knows where they operate from, he knows what they're after and he knows the location of what they're after. Even if the Order had a back up plan, we would have had enough information to eliminate them there and then without risking the Order activating a super weapon.

Yeah ... Valss motive is so vague, speculation is all we have.

Even if that's true. At this point he knows where they operate from, he knows what they're after and he knows the location of what they're after. Even if the Order had a back up plan, we would have had enough information to eliminate them there and then without risking the Order activating a super weapon.

 

Yeah ... Valss motive is so vague, speculation is all we have.

The whole thing on Copero would make more sense in case Theron had been an actual traitor tbh, from a double agent perspective, which he actually was, it doesn't make much sense.

The only way it would completely make sense is if there was someone constently watching after him and he was never alone, but it's shown not to be the case. Unless that other person conveniently had to go to the toilets while Theron received that transmission that he send to the Alliance at the end of Copero... Maybe Theron gave that person a drink filled with laxatives

If it was really intended for Theron to be an actual traitor for more DS Commander and a double agent for more LS ones, maybe Valss role depended on that as well, but that still doesn't explain why he jumped to fight us if he was actually trying to help Theron defeat the Order

The whole thing on Copero would make more sense in case Theron had been an actual traitor tbh, from a double agent perspective, which he actually was, it doesn't make much sense.

The only way it would completely make sense is if there was someone constently watching after him and he was never alone, but it's shown not to be the case. Unless that other person conveniently had to go to the toilets while Theron received that transmission that he send to the Alliance at the end of Copero... Maybe Theron gave that person a drink filled with laxatives

 

If it was really intended for Theron to be an actual traitor for more DS Commander and a double agent for more LS ones, maybe Valss role depended on that as well, but that still doesn't explain why he jumped to fight us if he was actually trying to help Theron defeat the Order

I think it would have worked better if the Player Character was the 'traitor' with either Vaylin or Valkorion taking over our characters minds without the characters knowledge. Then Theron is acting out of desperation to save us.

No idea. I don't know why we killed him either.

I think it would have worked better if the Player Character was the 'traitor' with either Vaylin or Valkorion taking over our characters minds without the characters knowledge. Then Theron is acting out of desperation to save us.

 

No idea. I don't know why we killed him either.

Valkorion taking over and the others having to do desperate things to save us if rather LS or stop us if rather DS could've been interesting

About Theron, the in game explanation would probably have to do with the OP droid as she knows Theron's with us on Nathema, while we're all outside far from any visible comunication device or anything technologic, but if she's so godly, why doesn't she know that he's sending intel to the Alliance before that point

And yeah, that's buging me, why did my character need to kill Valss ?

It would've been much more logical to try to get him alive in order to get intel directly from him, and if he was actually helping Theron save us, then he coul've been the one to give us the intel they gathered on Copero.

Well unless nothing could escape GEM-16, but it doesn't seem to actually be the case, unless she knew Theron was giving us informations and did not really care as long as she was able to get what she wanted

I have nothing against Charles Boyd as a person, I think he seems like a good guy with humour and an interesting personality, the cosplaying isn't exactly my thing but there is no doubt that his stuff is well made. That said, I think it's sad that he was promoted to become the main writer for SWTOR and much of the dislike for SWTOR I think is due to his poor writing of the expansion content.

SWTOR is a story-driven MMO, sure there are other forms of content for PvP:ers and PvE:ers but at it's core, the thing that SWTOR does better than other games is storytelling, the original class stories is still, so many years after launch, the best content in the game. However, while some stories are better and far more popular than others (Agent, Warrior and Inquisitor) there are stories that are far less popular among the player base, Trooper being the least popular storyline of them all.

Guess who wrote the least popular class story in swtor? Charles Boyd, and he was promoted to lead writer. Of course it's impossible to know if any of the other writers, or anyone else with the capabilities would do a better job, but a lot of the negative comments about the recent expansion story (which Charles wrote) echo a lot of the feedback people give for why the Trooper storyline is their least favourite. The weird interactions with key contacts, low-quality character building, colourless plot and strange turns of events are all characteristics of the Trooper storyline as well as KOFTE/KOTET.

With the story being such a big focal point of SWTOR and one of the key factors for players deciding what MMO to play, I would hope that future storyline gains a huge upgrade in terms of quality.

Avoid spoilers if you didn't play these storylines. Either the story doesn't make any sense, or it is not finished, and we are yet to find out who the traitor really was (Valkorion lives and was behind it?).

 

I played through the stories again, starting from Iokath, this is what happened.

 

 

 

Someone lured the Alliance, Republic and Empire at the same time on Iokath to reveal the superweapon and attempted to wipe them all out. Someone dressed as sith/jedi sabotaged the throne, your character nearly died. Noted, that Theron urges you to seat on the malfunctioning throne.

 

Later, in Crisis on Umbara it is revealed that the traitor is Theron Shan. He gives his explanation that he didn't like your rule bla bla. He seriously attempts to kill you (again). So, was it him too messing around with the superweapon on Iokath?

 

The things don't get better on Copero. Your character's boyfriend / closest advisor since Forged Alliances went nutso. Or the SWTOR writes went nutso. This "subversion of expectations" was so cheap and stupid that I thought I won't be coming back to play this game.

 

Then, on Nathema you find out that Theron was not a traitor, but he went deep undercover to protect you.

The bad guy is revealed to be some random dude from the Order of Zildrog who you see for the first time in your life. Was it him on Iokath? He doesn't have the brains to do what was done on Iokath.

 

The deep undercover nonsense doesn't explain why Theron seriously tried to kill your character starting from Iokath.

 

 

SWTOR is a story-driven MMO, sure there are other forms of content for PvP:ers and PvE:ers but at it's core, the thing that SWTOR does better than other games is storytelling, the original class stories is still, so many years after launch, the best content in the game.

The original class stories are certainly the best part of the game. That being said, I disagree that SWTOR does storytelling better than other games. We have to consider its genre; the game is an MMORPG. An MMORPG should not rely on conventional methods for storytelling, in my opinion. Although SWTOR kind of started this trend and it seems to have caught on within the industry, as many other MMOs choose to include a personal single player-esque storyline. Guild Wars 2 had one, as did The Elder Scrolls Online. Even World of Warcraft is giving way more weight to the individual person's actions through questing. In the Burning Crusade, Khadgar wouldn't even talk with you -- he'd send a magical servant to do it for him but in modern WoW he treats you as an equal. You are one of the main guys! And in WoW's case, it really doesn't work. It's tiresome to be called "hero" all the damned time, especially in WoW since you have no agency within the story. Maybe you do not want your undead warlock to be treated as the hero and saviour of the world. Doesn't really fit the fantasy, does it? Guild Wars 2 has the same problem with their necromancers.

The benefit of a single player campaign in an MMORPG is that it can attract players who are otherwise not interested in the genre to give it a try. SWTOR had perhaps an obligation to this as KOTOR 3 was in such big demand, and for SWTOR it works fairly well. When I first levelled to 50 I not only experienced the Agent's storyline, but also the Bounty Hunter's as I levelled alongside a friend and we'd participate in one another's stories, so even if the content is largely shaped for single player, there is a multiplayer aspect to it as well. Except for in KOTFE/KOTET, but I digress.

However! Storytelling for an MMORPG requires A LOT more focus on the actual world! In this sense, the narrative of the original World of Warcraft wins by a landslide compared to original SWTOR. While the quests were not at all as interesting as the ones in SWTOR, the world was much more colourful and living. Each race had a faction that owned a certain zone, and all the dungeons could be found in the world. The different enemy types of these dungeons would be the chunk of the content found in those areas of the world. Crafting reagants would be located in areas that made sense, such as earthroot being found on hills, grave moss around graveyards and in caverns you'd find more ore nodes. The flora and fauna isn't really planet specific in SWTOR, it's level specific, which makes sense from a gameplay perspective but not a narrative perspective. When you reached end game of SWTOR and your story was done, you were faced with emptiness. The end game content was largely tied to Ilum and the fleet.

I didn't make much noise about Traitor-arc when we were getting it, despite being a major Theron Shan-fan. But boy do I hate that storyline now. It doesn't matter if you let Theron live, he is as good as dead anyway. But we knew that would happen, so I just try to roll with the punches.

 

What irks me most in the Traitor- arc is that it is total, absolute nonsense. There are plotholes so big they form a black hole. Theron is written to be a total idiot. No, everyone in that story arc acts like a total idiot. I can't stand story depending on people being idiots. I had to stop watching Iron Fist because of that: Everyone was an idiot. Same thing here, and Theron gets the shortest stick.

 

This man who is shagging with my character finds out someone is listening everyone on the base. He can't tell about this to my character, because they are listened. DON'T THEY HAVE PEN AND PAPER IN STAR WARS? Not only that Theron Shan is unable to write or take my character for a walk outside of the base, later we suddenly find out that Lana and Theron had developed a secret code at Rishi (sic!), and Theron leaves a message for Lana using it on an abandoned listening post (sic!). So now we learn that Theron could've left a message about someone listening them or whatever. So which is it? He didn't have means to tell anyone or he did? Jesus stuff like that drives me crazy.

 

Now Theron has an implant so I suppose they had hacked in his implant too. First, he has control of it and I'm sure he can turn it off (don't know if it is mentioned in Annihilation). And still: PEN AND PAPER. His implant has a camera that can be turned off, that much I know for sure from Annihilation, so seeing something through it is not an excuse. He can shut it down. For sweet baby Jesus, take my character outside of the base and write with a stick into sand if paper and pen doesn't exist. I can't get past this. I'm not normally a nitpicker when it comes to stories, it spoils the fun out of them but this one really gets me.

 

So, the whole "Theron can't tell your character what he is doing and why" is the root of all the frustration for me. It is the basis of the story, and so the whole story is nonsense. It is nonsense he couldn't tell. He could have. No one can make me believe anything else.

 

And on top of that I lost my favorite character. Because of a worst story in the whole history of SWTOR. I'm not happy I tell you. They had to make Theron killable because that was what the peanut gallery wanted. He will never be relevant again. He had 30 seconds in 5.10 in a half-assed cutscene, and unfortunately I'm afraid that was the last we will see of him. My character might be married to him, but he might be a widow just as well. Some marriage that was. Of course they promised Theron won't disappear, but Bioware has a short memory. When they have to deal with limited resources, everything not absolutely necessary will be cut out. He will go the same way as Koth did.

 

I take major issues with this and I'm angry about it. Theron deserved better than to be turned into a moron and then allowed to be killed.

 

I left out the normal "everyone just knows everything"-plothole. I just don't have stamina to go there. I guess they are fortune tellers or something. Maybe see things from tarot-cards.

This is the best going-into-one about that whole traitor arc in this thread.

Theron does have a history of making catastrophic decisions (Ziost - in which he managed to get most of his his elite team of force users killed by the Emperor) but did he learn nothing from that experience? Are we to believe (as the writers seem to want us to) that love turned him stupid? The story idea and writing were clearly rushed leading to bad results, one of which is that Theron has become dead to all but we are stuck with Lana who is a proven idiot on many occasions. As for the twits from our past who ended up being used as fuel for Zildrog, W.T.F? This reeked of no imagination. Finally, who was the hooded betrayer? I don't believe for one minute it was either Vinn Atrius or Theron.

They seem to have overlooked the possibility that if you sided with Scorpio, I'm pretty sure she'd be more than happy to rustle up a few new Gemini free eternal ships or a Gravestone mark II for you, and even if you didn't side with Scorpio you have Oggurobb, Yuun, Tora and countless other superbrains in your alliance who would be able to create something pretty near to the Gravestone. The Alliance Empress/Emperor/Commander would therefore have her/himself a flagship & a fleet, so Zildrog destroying everything is irrelevant & the entire traitor arc was pointless.

They seem to have overlooked the possibility that if you sided with Scorpio, I'm pretty sure she'd be more than happy to rustle up a few new Gemini free eternal ships or a Gravestone mark II for you, and even if you didn't side with Scorpio you have Oggurobb, Yuun, Tora and countless other superbrains in your alliance who would be able to create something pretty near to the Gravestone. The Alliance Empress/Emperor/Commander would therefore have her/himself a flagship & a fleet, so Zildrog destroying everything is irrelevant & the entire traitor arc was pointless.

Especially considering Iokath technically still belongs to the Alliance.

And we technically still have the ships that came with the people of the Alliance who may decide to stay on Odessen no matter which side you chose.

We could even have a flagship that looks cool, seriously i always found the Gravestone quite hideous.